You Can Be Afraid Of Dying And Still Live Well-Interview with Dr. Elizabeth Scott

Welcome To Patty’s Place

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0:09

Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we'll talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. I started this podcast in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia about two and a half years ago. I'm your host, Lisa. So this is a place where you'll know that you're not alone. We can talk about all these things that are really hard to talk about at times. So grab your cup of tea, your cup of coffee, if you're having a really bad day, maybe a glass of wine, and we are going to get started today. Today I'm really excited. We have uh Dr. Elizabeth Scott here. She's a psychologist, and her latest book chronicles her journey from near terror to near acceptance of her mortality. So thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much, Lisa. It's a pleasure to be with you. So your book is entitled, You're going to die but not me. That's correct. I like that title. I like it. So what inspired you to write this

Why A Death Book Now

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book?

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Yeah, really. Well, I mean, the the very quick answer is that I'm quite old. So that's the very quick answer. But um the the slightly longer answer is that um I was diagnosed in 2014 with breast cancer. Oh, okay. So uh so that was let what 12 years ago that would have made me 67. And um I did not handle that well at all. Okay. I was a I was a big baby about it. Well, it's understandable. Yeah, yeah. It is an you know, I'm trying I give myself some grace because I know it's a very hard thing to go through. Um the the backstory on this though is that uh I had a quite a difficult mother, and my sister and I were uh had a lot of trepidation about what it was going to be like as she approached the end of her life, and because she was very demanding and self-centered. And the very strange irony is that she died with a lot of grace and peace and um ease, and it made the whole experience so much easier for my sister and me. So when I look back on my um own experience going through my breast cancer diagnosis, and I'm fine now by the way, everything is. Oh, well, good, good. Yeah, thank you. Um, I realized um it was a gift to my sister and me to have my mother approach her death in the way she did. And I didn't, I I didn't want my own children to be burdened by the experience of my death being a, you know, if I was gonna go kicking and screaming and a lot of, you know, angst about it, I thought that would be a real burden for them. So I wanted to that got me in a path of wanting to feel a little bit more ease and acceptance about my mortality. That's where it started.

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2:54

Okay, which I can understand that. Because yeah, when you are going through things like that, it it makes you really start to think about all of that. Um, how did your feelings

Research As Exposure Therapy

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about death change?

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3:08

Well, um, this was a very so I I dug in and um I'm I love to do I love research. I'm you know, I'm kind of a research buff. Um, anytime my kids have, you know, if they need a new rice cooker or something like that, I'm on it. Like, what's the best rice cooker? So um I went down every single rabbit. I so I decided to write a book about it because I'm a writer also. Okay. Um and so I went down every single solitary rabbit hole I could find on the subject of death. And um, I don't know how familiar you are with the concept of or the uh methodology of exposure therapy. This is something that we psychologists use often with people who have difficult um experiences related to um oh experiences or memories or feelings. So I this was became a kind of course of exposure therapy for me as I went down all these different rabbit holes on the theory, on the subject of death and mortality. Um so that's the kind of um shorthand, I think, the the kind of quick answer to what happened for me. There were there were different subjects that gave me um more of a modicum of peace around it. Different, different some things made me more frightened, other things made me less frightened.

SPEAKER_02
4:29

And I can understand that because you know a lot of people they get scared of even the topic of death or illness. They don't want to deal with it. But in a weird sort of way, when you like confront that or you you face it and try to deal with whether it's your illness or a family member's illness, it almost does bring you peace and makes you realize how you need to live in the present.

SPEAKER_00
4:52

Yeah, there's another really important basic kind of psychological uh approach that I use that I've used with my clients. I've been a psychologist for almost 50 years. And um thing I know is true is that when we avoid things that are frightening and create anxiety for us, it only increases the fear and anxiety when we avoid. And the antidote to that is approach, is to, you know, put on your big girl pants, be brave, and and find a safe way to approach whatever is um frightening you. So that's a kind of general theory. It's kind of goes along with what you're saying for sure.

SPEAKER_02
5:32

And and I'm kind of like you too, like when with my mom, like I had no, I noticed she was not herself quite a for quite a while before she was actually diagnosed. Oh but when she when she finally was, you know, I kind of was like, okay, I need to learn about this and how can I deal with it? Some things work, some things didn't, and then to learn more about it. Because I was I always feel like if I can understand it, then I can get closer to accepting it because I understand what I'm dealing with.

SPEAKER_00
6:02

Uh I think that's so true. And it's it would be understandable going through something as difficult as a parent um developing dementia. It's it it it's almost um counterintuitive to think about, well, I'm just gonna, you know, immerse myself in this subject because it's something that's so difficult that the natural instinct is to want to just kind of block it out and not think about it. So, you know, good for you for doing that. I it takes courage. Well, thank you for saying that.

SPEAKER_02
6:30

But you know, and for me, it was like I just just trying to figure out how do I deal with all this, you know. Same thing, like as you said, when you got your diagnosis, okay, well, what am I dealing with? Because it's so overwhelming. Health, what whatever the illness is, trying to understand it and then doctors and hospitals and uh with all of that. So when you were doing writing this book, what was the most surprising thing that you you found?

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6:54

Yeah, there

Panpsychism And Cosmic Comfort

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6:55

were so many surprising things, so many surprising things. Um so um, I don't know if you've ever heard of the concept of panpsychism. No, I don't think I have. Okay. Okay. So uh when I first came across, so the the the uh sort of very basic way of understanding panpsychism is that everything in the universe has consciousness. Everything. Okay, so it it was very easy for me to believe that my dog and my cat have some kind of consciousness, you know? Okay, well I I I would agree with that. Yeah, right. And so, but I read like their this amazing book about plants. There are there are plants that have just this amazing ability, some plants to kind of ward off insects or create toxins so that they don't get so predators don't you know attack them. There are like like whales can communicate with other whales 300 miles away, trees can communicate with each other through their roots. And even so, plants and animals, that's one step in this panpsychism. But even things like mountains and the ocean and dirt, you know, if you start thinking about everything in the universe, every single solitary thing in the universe has some kind of consciousness, not in the way we humans would think about it, but in this very broad sense, what happened for me um was this kind of sense of I'm I'm me and this body are are a collection of molecules that are part of just the whole universe of molecules. Okay. You know, just the whole it's just one big giant web of consciousness. And it was surprising and strangely comforting.

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8:53

I I could understand that. I could see where that would be comforting.

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8:57

It's kind of far out notion, I know.

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8:59

But but I can I you know, like I I can understand that, you know, especially like even if you just take it as, you know, I I always felt like all of my dogs had their soul. Like I feel like totally. Don't you just know it? They're dogs. Oh my god. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like that.

SPEAKER_00
9:14

I know some people don't agree with that, but I do, you know. I I do too. I do too. I know my dog's gonna start talking to me one of these days, too. I don't know, but you've ever felt that way.

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9:23

And I feel like they do. Like they look at you and they're like, What are you doing?

unknown
9:27

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02
9:28

Yeah, yeah. Uh well, I ended up taking care of my mom's dog because we ended up having she had to go to memory care. And um, she was this little 14-pound terrier. And she had such an attitude. And I would sit out on my patio, and she would only want to be out for a little bit, and then she'd go in, and then I'd be sitting there talking with my neighbors and stuff, and I'd look and she'd be at the patio door just looking at me like, Aren't you done yet? Exactly, exactly. And then she'd like go exactly and she'd walk away like, Oh, I'm so done with you.

SPEAKER_00
9:58

She'd be like, Exactly, exactly. Plus their little individual personalities.

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10:03

Exactly. Yeah. So out of all this, what what do you think was the most helpful thing that you learned? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00
10:11

Um there are a number of things in in different different areas. I don't, I I kind of don't want to give away there's an arc in the book. There's an emotional arc. I kind of don't want to give away the total arc. Well, right. I will say that it it I did come to a place where I realized that there was there were other things beneath the fear for me. And this I noticed this with clients that I work with too, that oftentimes, this this might sound strange, but for most of us, there are feelings that we're better at that are that we're eat that are easier to access, and other feelings that are not so easy for us to access. And I think it goes, you know, individual by individual what that what those are. And so I realized what in a way it's been easier in my life to access fear than some of the other feelings underneath that. Okay. And um, in this exploration, it helped me understand some of what was underneath my fear. So that was really, really helpful. And again, um having this sense that I yes, my life in this one form will be over pretty soon. Um, you know, uh a feeling of just kind of getting connected to the the web of the universe was quite comforting. I mean, I I don't, I don't couldn't, I can't get myself to believe that there's gonna be any, you know, listeness, you know, of my individual consciousness left. I know that that some people believe that there will be. I couldn't, I can't get myself to believe that. I I wish I could, but um, but I'd still a sense of um it's kind of like you know, the physics theory where you can't destroy matter, it only changes shape, it only changes form, you can't destroy it. So yes, my body in this form will no longer be here, but it will disperse into other, into some other form. The pieces of me, the molecules of me will go into some other form or other.

SPEAKER_02
12:22

No, I can understand that. I have a really good friend, and we joke all the time. He'll be like, you know, I'm like, all right, well, I'll talk to you later. And he's and we always joke like he goes, unless the Lord needs me on another plane, he always says Exactly, exactly, exactly. And I'm like, I understand.

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12:37

Exactly. Exactly.

Dementia Teaches The Present Moment

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12:40

You know, that reminds me too, Lisa, that um I think I think another thing that came out of journalist research is this it's it's such common wisdom, but you know, all we have is right now. We don't know what tomorrow will bring. You know, I I you know, I could get hit by a bus when I take my dog up for a walk this afternoon. And we we just don't know. And so um it's kind of like, yeah, unless I meet you in another plane, or you know, let me just be here now because this is what we've got. And that was really an important. All this look into death was a very stark reminder uh to be here now. Just be here now, you know, embrace the day, embrace what I have.

SPEAKER_02
13:26

And I always say the one thing that you can learn from uh people who have dementia is that they are in that now. That's all they know. Totally, totally. And and you do see it differently because you're like, you know, because two seconds from now they'll be so talking about something else. And so you it they force you to be in the now if you enter their world.

SPEAKER_00
13:51

I think that's absolutely right. It's one of the um, you know, I think I I believe we can learn something, you know, from anybody almost in any circumstance, and that's a beautiful thing to learn. And to, I mean, I don't know, I know a lot of people that have a uh a loved one who's had has dementia. It's um it's a challenge, like, you know, I you just asked me that five minutes ago, or I just told you that, you know, instead of like it's honoring it and it takes a long time to get to that point because you're trying to understand it.

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14:24

It really does. I that's why I tell everybody if you can get there and enter their world, it just makes your stress goes way down, you know.

SPEAKER_01
14:34

Totally.

SPEAKER_02
14:35

It really does with it. And then even like you said, like um my dad, he actually talked about it happened, you know, like he um he's been in the hospital now almost the entire summer. Uh oh my gosh. And um he, you know, he's not gonna be able to go back to live by himself, you know. So like this was I always said, well, this was not on our bingo card for right now. So you know, so um you just don't know, you know, with things and learning. And I I think by learning to kind of be in that moment with my mom, it's kind of helping me deal with a lot of the things for him, you know, like even the point of like, okay, I know he has to go into assisted living, he can't live by himself. And I had to go look at all the places, but I was like, it's your decision. Like I kind of knew where I wanted him to go, but I was like, this is your decision. You know, I'm not the one that has to live there, you know.

SPEAKER_00
15:33

Good for you, good for you. Is he fighting having to go into assisted living? Is he resisting that?

SPEAKER_02
15:39

No, he kind of knows, but it's still hard. Yeah, you know, it it's it's a hard decision. His whole life is, you know, uh changing and things like that. And and it is hard. And so that's why I've been trying to approach it, you know, learning with that with my mom to be like, okay, and like telling them, you know what, if you can't decide what you want with certain things, we'll get a storage unit. I don't I I don't want you to feel like, oh, you your whole life has to get pushed away. Because I know that would make me feel really, you know, it's a lot, you know, and I and he's gonna be 80 next month. So he's been I know he's been thinking a lot about, like you said, death and and all that. Even though I know he says he wants to live to 100, you know, it it makes you just really start, you know, thinking about that. So so you I you obviously you've worked with clients that have this fear of mortality.

Working With Mortality Fear

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16:36

Like how do you how do you work with them? How do you approach that?

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16:40

Yeah. Um my I'm always surprised when I hear people say, Well, I'm not afraid of dying. And I I want to put to to the side people who are like maybe have a very um painful, debilitating illness. You know, I can see why death might feel like a relief in in that case, or somebody that's been severely depressed their whole life. I'm gonna put that to the side. Okay. For for the rest of us who um are not in those categories that say I'm not afraid of dying, frankly, Lisa, my what goes on for me is that I think, well, that's just denial. That's just denial. Because it's too, it's it's just how can we how can we contend with this notion of, well, I'm here one day and the next day I'm just not here. I'm just gone. I'm just you know, that's just uh to me a kind of patently terrifying notion. I I just you know, um, so I think um well to me the we are our best selves if we can accept our whole range of feelings, and that includes fear. But if there are some feelings we're not willing to accept or we're not willing to admit to, I think that creates a kind of unease in us that is difficult to contend with. It's just kind of oh feelings want to be felt, they want to be expressed. That's the job of a feeling, it wants to be expressed. So if we're not letting ourselves express a feeling, I think um it creates a kind of uneasiness. So my job, and I this is not just in fear of mortality, but all in all sorts of different kinds of feelings with clients, is to help create a safe space where somebody can gently, safely um access their whole range of feelings and express. And talking about talking with somebody who you feel safe with is one of the main ways of expressing a feeling, right? Instead of just holding it in and or having it just kind of bounce around in the container of your head, you know. So um yes, I've had plenty of clients who express that fear, and I I my first thing to do is to normalize that. It's like, of course you're afraid. Of course you are. And let's let's examine what are the things you're afraid of, or is there anything that you can do to calm yourself? Is there any are there any action steps you can take? Like um I it's been very important to me to sort of get my affairs in order before I need to. And that's that has decreased my fear. I have, I have, you know, a list of all the things my kids need to know about, you know, after I die. I've got the list of all the telephone numbers and all the papers where all the papers are. I'm trying to, you know, clean out stuff I don't need so they don't have a big giant mess to deal with. And that makes me feel less afraid of what I'm gonna leave to them, leave for them to deal with. So that's one small aspect of fear that I can deal with.

SPEAKER_02
19:55

And I would agree with that, you know, uh to get your affairs in order, which is it's a hard thing to really think when you have to start really thinking about, okay, who do I want to take care of this? You know, who do I trust with this? Well, who do I want to have this or that, you know, uh with it. But it does make life a lot easier for people when it is in order. And as you were talking about your feelings, you know, it was a hard lesson for me to understand and learn that, you know, feelings are not right or wrong. They just are.

SPEAKER_00
20:27

Exactly. It's almost like saying, you know, I'm I'm wrong if I feel cold in 20 degrees. I mean, it's just that just is right. You know, it it's a feeling, it just is. Like you say, it's not right or wrong. It's just a feeling.

SPEAKER_02
20:40

And if you don't deal with the feeling, your body will at some point make you deal with the feeling. You're not kidding, it will.

SPEAKER_00
20:46

And you know, I always say we get two choices. We can deal with them directly or indirectly. Those are the two choices.

SPEAKER_02
20:52

You know, and like I I always say that I'm I'm the type of person that's like oh, an emergency, I'm fine, I'm calm. I I'm like, okay, gotta do this, this, and this. But then like the TV doesn't work and I like fall apart, you know. Exactly, exactly. Exactly. I hold them together too long, right? And then I fall apart. Yeah. I'm like, don't mess with the TV. I'm just like, you know. Um, but yeah, and a lot of people they they are uncomfortable, they don't want to hear about, you know, hey, this is where you need to know, this is where the papers are, this is their oh, I don't want to talk about it, I don't talk about it. But I think it helps ease both people. You know, the person who's telling you this eases their fear, but then also you need to know that. And and again, sometimes somebody is sick and you have time, but then sometimes it's sudden and you and you don't know.

SPEAKER_00
21:45

And then what do you do? Exactly. Exactly.

Get Your Affairs In Order

SPEAKER_00
21:49

Exactly. And I think there's a long there's a long chapter in my book about this. Might sound kind of grim for people, but um, the whole thing about what do I excuse me, what do I want to do with my body after? I died. And that was a long exploration for me. And I did feel like I didn't want to burden my children with that decision. You know, I I felt like it would help help ease my mind to make that decision for myself and communicate it with them and to communicate it to them so that that's something I could kind of tick off the list.

SPEAKER_02
22:25

And and it's and it is important because my um, well, I've told this story before, but at first when I was growing up, my mom used to say, you know, it'd be invitation only to her wake. Because if you didn't talk to her and you didn't like her, don't be showing up to her wake. And then she would say, Don't you dare have anybody looking at me, you know. And then she her and my dad then both decided that they want to be cremated because my mom was like, Don't be spending all that money on a, you know. And then she was like, You do whatever you want with the ashes, you know, if you find somewhere peaceful, that's fine. You know, but that made me feel better. My dad, you know, he's a veteran, so he he wants to be cremated, but he wants, you know, his ashes at um, there's a veteran cemetery near uh the house, and that that's what he wants. And he wants the full military. And I was like, okay, but it's like that's what you know, and it's important to know people's wishes because it makes it a lot easier when you're going through it. You have a uh like a guiding way to go, okay, this is what they wanted.

SPEAKER_00
23:24

I think so too. I think so too. And I think I, you know, I think it's great that your parents communicated that to you because again, it's so much stress, I think, on kids to try what would you want this, would you want that? I mean, what and then maybe the kids will argue with each other or debate with each other, you know. So it's it's just I think it's a real uh gift you can give your kids to make that decision yourself and communicate that to them.

SPEAKER_02
23:48

And for me personally, I found peace because I knew I was doing what my mom wanted. Exactly. You know, and I was like, okay, I'm honoring her wishes. You know, she even laid it out, these are the songs I want played.

SPEAKER_01
24:02

Oh, I love that. I love that. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02
24:04

And that she did that long before she was sick. She's like, you need to know this. And I was okay, you know, and but my mom had had a lot of um, a lot of death in her life. So she I think she felt, I don't want to say close to to death, but she she wasn't afraid of it. And so you know, so she she she talked about it all the time, you know, in the sense of this is what I want, this is what I don't want, that types of things, you know. And I know a lot of people don't want to they don't want to talk about that. Oh no, I don't want to know, but when it happens, it's so overwhelming with it.

SPEAKER_00
24:37

It's almost like I don't want to talk about it equals like it's not gonna happen to me. Right. But that's not true.

SPEAKER_02
24:43

Right. Unfortunately, it's gonna happen to all of us. Yes, yes, ma'am, it is. Yeah. So what do you want people to take away from reading your book?

SPEAKER_00
24:52

Yeah. Um, well, uh again, the main uh the main thing is um be brave. Be brave. Um explore, think about this, think about what you want, take a look at what you're afraid of. Is there anything you can do um to help you along this way? Um are there people you can talk to? Um and um uh yeah, I think I think um if you have children, I do think it's a blessing to get your get your life, get your situation in order because as you said, you know, we never know how long we have. We just don't we just do not know how long we have.

SPEAKER_02
25:36

And when you were going through the whole your all your breast cancer, what was how I would phrase this? So what did you find comforting for like what did was there certain things that people did or said that like really helped you?

SPEAKER_00
25:53

Um Well, my my kids were great, you know. They they came to doctor's appointments with me and after my surgery they were there, you know, and all that, all that. I I I don't

What Helps Versus What Hurts

SPEAKER_00
26:05

um I I was a big baby, Lisa. I was a big baby, and um I I wish I had more grace about it. I mean, I'm trying to give myself, you know, you know, I'm not trying to be too hard on myself because it was a turning point for me on this journey. And and I'm glad that I've kind of gone down this road of finding more peace. Um they were very, very helpful. And you know, I had wonderful doctors and they were very reassuring and um helpful. And I'm fine. So I got, you know, I'm lucky. Right. Uh you know, I'm lucky because it wasn't it could have been a lot worse, and it wasn't. Um so I think I think the main thing is it was a big learning experience for me. It was a giant learning experience for me for which I am grateful.

SPEAKER_02
26:56

Was there anything that people did that you would advise people like not to do or say?

SPEAKER_00
27:02

You know, because I know people don't always know what to say or do when someone says Yeah. This is kind of gonna be an obvious thing, but you know, don't tell me horror stories. Don't, you know, like there are a couple people that would tell me horror stories, like, why are you doing this? Right. You know, stop. You know, just like what what are what are you thinking? Telling me these I mean, it's such it seems like such an obvious thing, but don't do that. Yeah, do not do that. And the other thing is don't um minimize, like, like, oh, you know, you're gonna be everything's fine and you shouldn't be afraid, and don't minimize, you know, don't um discount. Um, you know, you can have empathy and you can encourage without minimizing or discounting what somebody's feeling.

SPEAKER_02
27:47

And I've always I I've tried I've learned and I try to do this, you know. I probably don't always succeed, but sometimes people they just need to vent or they just need to know you're there listening. Totally, totally, totally. Yeah, like they they don't want to fix, they just want you to listen, you know.

SPEAKER_00
28:05

Totally, totally. I I think one of the this is sort of a general principle, but I think the simple question of you know, what would you like now? Would you like advice or would you just like to would you just like to be heard? You know, if you're confused about what somebody wants, ask what they want. Or if you're confused about what they need, ask. You know, this kind of like jumping in with advice is often not helpful.

SPEAKER_02
28:31

Yeah, you know, and and sometimes I I kind of learned with my mom, all she ever wanted was peace. Because she had she had a lot of chaos and that in her life. And so I was like, well, that's all I can give her, you know, because with with dementia, there there's nothing I can do, you know. So at least I could give her peace.

SPEAKER_00
28:52

It's wonderful. It's wonderful that you know that you came to that and you understood that that's a beautiful thing, Lisa.

SPEAKER_02
28:58

Because it's like, you know, you you feel so helpless with it. Yes, you do. Because there's just there's nothing, you know. There's you know, so I was like, okay, well, I could at least try to give her that, you know,

Be Brave And Where To Connect

SPEAKER_02
29:10

at the very least, you know, with it. So so do you have advice for anyone who harbors some of the same fears you did about mortality?

SPEAKER_00
29:19

Yeah. Yeah. Um, I again, I think, you know, be brave. Um find us find safe ways that you can explore this subject. Um you know, it's it's we're all gonna die. So not thinking about it doesn't change that fact. And um, and be here now. So um, you know, seize the day. This is what we have. So, you know, try to try to be the person you want to be, try to live the life you want to live in the here and now, and um be brave and look at the things that frighten you. Which is scary, but you know, and you can do it little by little.

SPEAKER_02
30:01

You don't have to do it all at once.

SPEAKER_00
30:02

Totally, oh my gosh, totally. Safely and gently, safely and gently. And that you know, it took me it took me like three years to write this book. So I had three years of safe gently. I wasn't like one all of it in one time. Right. You know, so just a little bit at a time. And um, it wears off the the sharp edges, you know, when you can do something a little bit at a time.

SPEAKER_02
30:25

Well, yeah, and even you know, if you're the caregiver side of things to try to do it a little bit at a time, because that's overwhelming too when you're trying to deal deal with everything uh with that. So exactly. Where can we purchase your book? The name of the book is You're Going to Die, but not me.

SPEAKER_00
30:42

Right. And I I chose that title because I'm hoping that people understand that there's a lot of humor in this book. There's a lot of humor. So um that's a kind of like a you know, the whole a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down. I think, you know, having some humor in this makes some of the topics much easier to absorb. Um, so you can buy it on Amazon or Barnes and Noble Online or this is the book. Um I have a website or and a substack. And and if anybody wants to be in touch, I I love connecting with people.

SPEAKER_02
31:16

So and your website is Liz Scottrider.com, is that correct?

SPEAKER_00
31:20

It is, exactly. And that's my substack too, Liz ScottRider.substack.com. And you have several other books on there as well, too. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and I like I say, just if anybody just wants to say hi and connect, I that's there's no no you don't need to buy a book. Just really seriously, I love connecting with people. It's a it's a wonderful thing.

SPEAKER_02
31:41

Well, this has been a pleasure, and we will make sure that we put all of your information on there as well. So, and I agree with you, sometimes you have to laugh at all this stuff because otherwise you're either gonna laugh or cry, and maybe you do both.

SPEAKER_00
31:53

Indeed, indeed, indeed. Thank you so much, Lisa. I really appreciate it. It was lovely talking to you.

SPEAKER_02
31:59

Well, thank you for for joining us here. So I hope you guys have enjoyed this and check out the book as well. So hopefully you enjoyed your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or a glass of wine. Uh, make sure you check us out on our uh website and our YouTube channel and and join us for another edition of Patty's Place.