Category: Podcasts

Why Patty’s Place Exists

SPEAKER_02
0:06

Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we'll talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. I started this podcast in honor of my mom, who, Patty, who passed away from dementia about two and a half years ago. So I want this to be a place where you can feel like you're not alone and learn some good things to help you through this struggle. So grab your cup of tea, your cup of coffee if you haven't that really been a daily lesson line, and let's get started. So today I'm excited. We are talking to Dr. Fred Ramos. He has spent 40 years inside the financial services industry as a certified financial planner with a PhD in taxation. But in 2022, he voluntarily gave the credential benefit. He's also a nine-time best-selling author and a Vietnam-era Coast Guard veteran who spent three years running search and rescue. But today he teaches people over 50 how to recognize when someone is not on their side and he works with families dealing with the part of dementia and grief nobody warns them about, which is what happens with the money. So welcome, Dr. Fred.

SPEAKER_00
1:03

I appreciate you having me here.

SPEAKER_02
1:04

Yes, this is a very, very uh good topic because it's very overwhelming. Dementia itself is overwhelming, but then you got to deal with all that financial part. So uh let's start

Why He Quit Financial Services

SPEAKER_02
1:16

with. So you spent 40 years in financial services and then you gave the credential back. What did you see that made you walk away?

SPEAKER_00
1:24

After 40 years, again, the last 28 was a certified financial planner, uh, and I started out selling products, but the industry itself was not set up for people. The industry is set up to self-perpetuate and it just generates commissions for them. And it was pretty much irregardless of what happened to the people. And I primarily work on the retirement side of things, and people that I worked with, no matter what I did inside that standard financial practice routine, just wasn't doing anything for them. And by the time they hit age 50, 55, 60, they really didn't have enough money uh to retire any way, shape, or form. And so I had to do something different. I just uh this is it, you know, six, eight, ten percent a year is what the best you're gonna do for somebody. Uh and it's not working for them. So I went out and did something different.

SPEAKER_02
2:15

Okay. All right. So what you started, you you've written um you're a nine-time best-selling author, so you have some current books as well, too, right now.

SPEAKER_00
2:26

Um, the the the most current one is um it's terrible. It runs together after a while.

SPEAKER_03
2:33

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00
2:35

Yeah. Um retirement isn't optional. Uh enjoying it is.

SPEAKER_03
2:39

Well, yes.

SPEAKER_00
2:40

And uh that's it's an interesting book. Uh it could be of some interest to your people, but I I think there's other things on their mind when you're stuck in a situation where you've got family that you're trying to take care of and you're taking care of your own family yourself. Um, the books are nice, and I I had a good time doing them. Um produce for a number of different, you know, um or writing uh videos and documentaries, but that doesn't help your folks.

SPEAKER_03
3:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
3:07

Your folks are stuck in a situation where things happened. Didn't expect them to happen, but things happen now, they're stuck taking care of a parent. Or two.

SPEAKER_02
3:18

This is true.

When Money Slips Before Diagnosis

SPEAKER_02
3:19

So you you mentioned you say the money goes before the diagnosis does. So what can we talk a little bit? I understand what you're saying, but can we expand on that a little bit?

SPEAKER_00
3:30

Certainly. What happens is parents are fine until they're not. And then what generally happens is that the closest person, who's generally a daughter, has to take care of these things.

SPEAKER_03
3:45

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00
3:46

Okay, you're you were there. Okay you understand exactly what goes on, and you know, there could be other family members, but you're the closest, so you're expected to do these things. Well, you've got your own life to begin with, and most women, by their nature, are caregivers to some degree and take care of the household, the family, and their needs come last. It just works that way, it's not supposed to, but it does. And here's here's your parent, and oh yeah, my mom's, you know, she she forgot my name, and it is cute for a little while, and then she forgot the kid's name. Well, that's that's sort of cute. She's just getting a little older, and then things happen, and it's getting more progressive, and you don't know what's going on, and then you stop over one day, and either mail's piled up or it's it's actually opened, which doesn't happen too often, and there's two and three months worth of bills stacked up there. And so it's the mail that gives it way. When the mail piles up, then there's a problem, and then you reckon, oh well, well, this was cute before, but if there's something serious going on right now.

SPEAKER_02
4:55

And I think, and I think also what happens too is that in my mom's case, I think my dad started to notice that because my mom used to pay all the bills, but I think he did start to notice, and then he just started taking over paying the bills because he had a very hard time accepting that something wasn't quite right. And I think when you, you know, because my parents were married over 50 years. So I think you also have that issue where like you see something with the one, and then you have the other one not quite ready to deal with it. So, you know, they're taking over that side of it.

Why Seniors Get Exploited

SPEAKER_02
5:30

But also, why you also say that why is someone in early dementia the most exploitable person in the country?

SPEAKER_00
5:39

In your own situation, your dad didn't handle bills on a routine basis, and that's fine. There's generally some type of differentiation between who handles what in the household. Right. And that's accepted over a period of time. But when you notice there's a problem and then you're trying to take care of those things, now you're outside your own wheelhouse.

SPEAKER_06
5:59

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00
5:59

Yeah. And at some point in time, you you go looking for some outside help. Well, being a senior itself is a dangerous thing.

SPEAKER_01
6:08

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00
6:09

Being a senior in these days, okay, is dangerous because what happens is you know, you did everything right for 30, 40 years, and now here you are saying 50, 60, 65, 70, 75, and the money is not really there the way everybody told you it was going to be there. So you're already cutting back some on your lifestyle. And then because of that, okay, money is not my thing. I need some outside help here. And so you go looking and you look for advisors basically. And you don't want to burden your family with those things, so you you check out advisors. Well, the industry is really interesting in that when you get that age group, they're the easiest ones to sort of persuade. And they're not necessarily working in your best interest. Again, they're working in their interest, and that tends to be a little bit of a problem. And you're stuck in a house and you're stuck with your loved one who's trying to take care of things that are outside of the wheelhouse to begin with, and you're really not certain, and you feel shame, you feel guilt. Okay, well, I I was doing all this stuff before, and now my poor spouse has to take care of these things, and they shouldn't have to do those things. And then here you are as a child walking in, and God, I didn't want any of this stuff to happen to my folks, but now it is. Now what do I do? And all of a sudden now they're really, really exposed to outside people that they would not normally see at all.

SPEAKER_02
7:41

Well, in one instance, uh, with me and my dad, um, my mom luckily had my mom and dad had both done the power of attorney, and and that had it long before she had gotten sick. So my dad and I were at the bank and we were like trying to figure out stuff because my mom was on my account just as a name, you know, and of course my mom did share an account and I was on a few of the accounts just because they wanted in case of emergency type of a thing. Well, what we were going to do, I forget what exactly it was. We didn't know if we should take her off of the accounts or not, you know? And they were like, well, we need to talk to her. And and we brought the power of attorney at the bank. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, she has dementia. And I was like, I go, I I could sit right next to her and tell her exactly what to say. She does not understand. And they were like, Well, we still need to talk to her to protect her. And I'm like, so my dad and I were like, okay, just forget it. We'll just leave her on the account. It was so frustrating, you know.

SPEAKER_00
8:44

Everybody's got their own little things. Yeah. And they think they're working to protect somebody, and they're really not.

SPEAKER_04
8:49

No.

SPEAKER_00
8:50

They're there to protect themselves.

SPEAKER_04
8:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00
8:53

And to get somebody off an account, it's it's a challenging thing. And you know, if she's there and nothing happens, that's fine. But if she's there and somebody gets hold of her and they get her to sign things, which happens quite often, right? Then there's a problem because the money just disappears. And you don't know about it until after the fact.

SPEAKER_02
9:13

Right. Yeah. So it it it it is. It's like people think they know what dementia is, but then when it comes to the financial part, they they don't understand. Like she's not, she was not capable of making any of those decisions with it. So, like, luckily, too, my dad went and updated his will and everything because he didn't want something to happen. Like, if something had happened to me, she was the first, you know, obviously it went to her and then me, but he put it in there because he knew uh if something had happened to me and she was still there, she wouldn't have been able to understand anything. So he he moved it, you know, to me on it. He at least he thought he thought he he thought about all that because he knew she's not capable of it at the time.

SPEAKER_00
9:57

There's a lot of last-minute estate planning that happens at this point in time. And you know, the wills are fine if things are in a trust, it's even better because it's easier to change trustees than it is to change a will. Okay. But again, every time you do another legal thing, it involves more outside people, more expenses and more time. Well, you have your own family. Okay, you take care of your family too. And you want to take care of your folks, you want to help out as much as possible, but your life is always short on time. People don't understand. At age 50 plus, okay, it's not the money, it's the time.

SPEAKER_05
10:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00
10:38

Money you can make, but you can't change the time. Right. And that's the biggest thing. What are you gonna do with your time? What do you want to do? Okay, how is it best for you to spend your time for you? And as a caregiver, as part of the family trying to help out, you don't have much choice at this point in time. Your personal life is pretty much trashed.

SPEAKER_03
10:58

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00
11:00

Most of your life now goes to your parents taking care of the situation, and it wasn't intended, but your life is on hold for one, two, three, five years or more until that person passes. And even then, you're not right for the next year or two.

SPEAKER_02
11:16

No, no, you are not.

SPEAKER_00
11:18

And people don't understand that at all.

SPEAKER_02
11:20

No, no, they really don't.

Memory Care Sticker Shock

SPEAKER_02
11:22

And then also the cost, like you said, you know, you you try to plan for retirement because you you have this idea that, oh, I'll retire, I'll be able to travel, do kind of what I want. But my dad and I were shocked at how much memory care costs. Um and this was we went to a private, because you either have to do the Medicaid or you have to do um private. And my dad was paying $7,000 a month for that. Um he, I mean, he did, he cut back on a lot of things to be able to, so she had the good care, but you're just shocked by it. The like how do people pay for that?

SPEAKER_00
12:06

Most of them don't. If you've got it planned right, okay, medicated when you're broke. Right. But you have to plan for that two or three years ahead of time to make certain that you're broke on paper.

SPEAKER_06
12:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00
12:18

It's to lead a reasonable life. Okay. And if you can find somebody to help you do that, that's great. But those people are far and in between. And then the cost of those people is also expensive.

SPEAKER_01
12:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_00
12:30

So you're you're coming up short every which way.

SPEAKER_02
12:34

Yeah, I mean, it it's it's unbelievable how expensive uh memory care, even assistant living care is. And it's not any cheaper if, you know, some I've had friends where they they've brought caregivers into their houses, but they're still paying. So it's it's still not it, it's not cheap at all to try to take care of somebody. Yeah, plus you have a stranger in your house.

SPEAKER_00
12:59

No, I don't.

SPEAKER_02
13:00

Yeah, and that so it doesn't always work with Samancha either. So what so let's say if uh you you you have in here that like what happens to a widow in the first 90 days, and why does it happen then? Especially if it's somebody who like never paid the bills.

SPEAKER_00
13:19

First, you know, week two weeks is is you know, it's terrible, it's rough. But all the neighbors are coming over with food.

SPEAKER_04
13:27

Right.

SPEAKER_00
13:27

And everything's, you know, they're there to help and support you as best they can.

SPEAKER_04
13:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00
13:31

And you're still stunned. You're gonna, you know, my parents just died. Okay, and now I got all these people. I mean, I like you, but yeah, too many people stay away from me. Exactly. Right? Am I missing this? Right, right. Because at age 50, uh, your circle is relatively small by choice.

SPEAKER_01
13:48

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00
13:49

Well, you were 20 and somebody was so crazy, and so you spent some time with them. Right. But age 50, oh no, you're crazy. I can tell it. It's okay. Just do it over there. Exactly. Okay, this is my space, leave me alone. But everybody wants to come in and show their condolences and and see if they can help, but they really can't help. But you know, it it's the thing to do, it's a social thing. Right. And that's okay. But then what happens is three or four weeks out, all those people disappear now. You're there with an empty house, and your son, you know, what the hell just happened to me?

SPEAKER_05
14:25

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00
14:27

My parent just died. Okay, all their bills are stacked up here. I had all these people come over, they messed up my house. Okay, I gotta clean up now after all these people trying to help out. Okay, and now I'm here, I'm halfway cleaned up, return all these dishes and pirates things, and but you know, now what the hell do I do? And at that point in time, you know, you're feeling guilty because yeah, you're happy that they're passed to a degree.

SPEAKER_04
14:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00
14:56

Okay, and it's a lot of relief. But now what do you do at that point in time? Okay, and that's the hard part because now you've got all this free time and your life hasn't come back to you yet.

unknown
15:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00
15:12

Your life is still on hold. And people that are not there, they just do not understand it. It's a it's a lived experience.

SPEAKER_02
15:20

It truly is a lived experience.

SPEAKER_00
15:22

Just do not understand it.

SPEAKER_02
15:24

No, you you really, you, you really don't understand it because yeah, you're you're trying to take care of them, and then there's it isn't just you have that physical part where you're actually there, caregiving, but then you have all this other stuff to take care of, you know, like the finances, like you know, when you go start to go through all their their things and stuff like that, you may find bills that you can't read.

Start With Mail And Statements

SPEAKER_02
15:48

Like, how do what are some of the most important things that somebody should look at to take care of with that if they're trying to take over someone's finances?

SPEAKER_00
15:59

It's important to track down the statements, obviously. It all starts with the mail. So you've got to go through the mail. Um and you've got the mail on one hand with these pile of things that appear to be due. They may or may not be due because now that person's passed on and may not be responsible, depending on how things are set up.

SPEAKER_04
16:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00
16:21

Okay. Well, past bills. I mean, you got credit card bills and this person is now passed on. How obligated are you to pay the credit card bill? Uh-uh. I don't know. Right. Okay, that's something for you and your trainer to pick up on. Okay, and that's the thing because you're settling on how much cash is left now.

SPEAKER_03
16:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
16:41

It's a big thing. How much liquid cash do you have? Assets are fine, but assets are just that. They're pieces of paper. They say that there's some value there. Stocks, bonds, real estate, lovely things. But if you need cash, those things don't help you. You can't go to the grocery store or to the funeral home, the funeral homework took their money because they get the life insurance line over to them immediately.

SPEAKER_04
17:09

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00
17:10

So they're halfway covered. Right. But you still need things to take care of the rest of the household. What are you gonna do with the house now? Right. Is it still on the house? How much of a mortgage is there?

unknown
17:22

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00
17:22

Does it have mortgage insurance on it or not? You don't know any of that stuff. And even with the best laid plans, okay, these things could all be scattered in different places. And now you're going through the house, you're going through clothes, you're going through dishes, you're going through old tools for his dad's stuff. Okay. Where is their stuff at? I'm from an Italian household and they used to hide money all the time. Always hit cash someplace.

SPEAKER_04
17:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00
17:48

So you're going through stuff, and here's a coffee can. There's no coffee in it. There's a couple thousand dollars in there. Well, that was interesting.

SPEAKER_04
17:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00
17:56

It's part of the thing. And then you get the rest of the family coming over, and I don't know how it was for your family. Okay. My family was interesting when my grandparents passed, and everybody comes in and they start putting little stickers on things with their name on it. They're clearing out the house already. Well, she said I could have that. He said I could have that. And here you are, you're trying to take care of things, and you don't know what the hell's going on. Right. You were there the most. And now the older brother says that he's entitled to this. Or the older sister says she's entitled to this. Or the younger sister says she's entitled to that. You're the one who's doing all the stuff. They weren't there.

SPEAKER_04
18:38

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00
18:39

They came at the last minute. Okay. And now everybody's got their hands into things. They're sorry to say when there's money on the table, people get ugly.

SPEAKER_03
18:47

Yes, they do.

SPEAKER_00
18:49

People don't believe it's gonna happen, but it happens every every time. If you can set things up ahead of time, that's great. If it's not, you're trying to clean up after the fact, and those statements mean a lot. Because those statements do represent some type of asset that now you have to convert to cash generally. And so it's a really complicated thing to do. And again, people look to outside sources for help. And that gets to be a problem because you don't know who your outside source is going to be.

Online Accounts Lock Caregivers Out

SPEAKER_02
19:21

So let's say that they have it, maybe they do some things online. I have a perfect example. Uh my my dad uh has been in and out of the hospital the last few months, and so he pays his credit card, he calls on the phone. And uh, of course, I'm I'm on his bank accounts, but I'm not on his credit card. So uh they wouldn't tell me the balance because I'm not an authorized user. I understand that, but I'm trying to pay his bill. So it is quite frustrating, or even like to to to log in to a bank account, I'm still not on his. So, like, what should somebody do when they're trying to take care of these things? Like a credit card, for example, if you're not on the credit card, how do you find out the balance? Because they won't talk to you.

SPEAKER_00
20:14

You're sort of screwed sorry. Yeah, and you know that, right? Even if your spouse was on a credit card, unless you're on the card, they're not gonna let you know anything. Right. It's very strange. And when you pay it online, that's great for them.

SPEAKER_04
20:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00
20:31

But here you are, the caregiver, you've got to do a paper trail.

SPEAKER_04
20:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00
20:35

You have a bank account, oh yeah, the money went out for what? Because now they don't want to send out statements anymore. No, they don't have money to send out statements, so it's all online. So unless you've got all this stuff coordinated ahead of time, and you don't know what that ahead of time actually is.

SPEAKER_02
20:53

No, you don't.

SPEAKER_00
20:54

That's part of the problem. These things just creep out of nowhere. It doesn't happen bang overnight. It just creeps little things at a time. And you don't notice it until you've got a full-blown problem. Something's not right, but I don't know what. It'll be okay.

SPEAKER_03
21:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00
21:12

You can do that for a month or two months, and then it compounds and gets worse and worse and worse, and then you're sort of stuck. And now it's almost too late to get information from these people. Your loved ones basically to track down every single account that they have is difficult. You have to go through their wallet, every credit card that they actually have in their possession. And you gotta look through the drawers with the credit cards there that they used once, and now they've got a subscription, they just keep paying and paying and paying. So you've got to get all the credit cards, find out who owns what. And then is this an online account? In today's world, it's very, very difficult. You've got to get with that person while they're still cognizant of what's going on. And then do they trust you that much?

SPEAKER_05
22:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00
22:13

Yeah, you're their daughter. Yeah, you're their son. Right. But this is my stuff.

SPEAKER_02
22:18

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00
22:20

And they they don't want to let go.

SPEAKER_02
22:22

No, it is hard. And so, like for my dad's situation, it was either I said, you either have to add me onto the account. I said, I don't want to use your credit cards. I just want to pay these. Well, you can't pay them right now. I said, or if you're still getting the physical bill because he doesn't, he likes to get, you know, the physical statement, then okay, they go, then I can write the check. That was okay because I'm on the bank account for, you know, so it's it is it's frustrating. So what does somebody do? Like, say, if if my if their loved one is passed already, can't do they have to show the death certificate then in order to pay that?

SPEAKER_00
23:03

Will that work or if they were liable for the bill and they've passed, guess what? You're not liable for the bill.

SPEAKER_03
23:12

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00
23:13

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03
23:15

But so what happens?

SPEAKER_00
23:17

You can check with an attorney on that one, and you probably should.

SPEAKER_02
23:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
23:20

But if they were on the account, there are open bills, they're unpaid, they've passed. There's no way for them to collect now.

SPEAKER_02
23:28

So even if you're the exact say you're the executor of the will, that you're not responsible for that, like what will happen?

SPEAKER_00
23:35

You want to check with an attorney on that one to find out. But for all intents and purposes, those bills have stopped.

SPEAKER_03
23:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
23:41

The obligations have stopped. Now, if you're the executor, you know, how much are they going to come after you for?

unknown
23:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
23:48

Come after the account.

SPEAKER_03
23:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
23:52

Okay. So they can't get to him, but do they have an estate there? What's in the estate? How how big is the bill?

SPEAKER_05
24:00

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00
24:01

And if it's $100, $200, maybe a thousand, two thousand dollars, how much are they going to chase for two thousand dollars? It's gonna cost them three thousand dollars in attorney's fees.

SPEAKER_04
24:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00
24:14

Just to file anything.

unknown
24:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
24:17

Is it worth their time or not?

SPEAKER_03
24:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
24:20

A number of things it will drop off.

SPEAKER_03
24:22

Okay. But it's always good to check.

SPEAKER_00
24:24

But again, it's important to check.

SPEAKER_03
24:27

Right. Check with the attorney.

SPEAKER_00
24:28

It all depends on how the estate is set up.

SPEAKER_03
24:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
24:31

Because if it's a if it's a will, then there are things in the will. If it was a trust, all of a sudden now nothing's in the will. Because the will is only there to transfer property.

Trust Versus Will In Real Life

SPEAKER_02
24:42

So what's the difference for what's the difference between if you set something I'm gonna trust as opposed to somebody just writing a will?

SPEAKER_00
24:51

When I was practicing, and I still have a few clients right now, yeah, I hand over the entire practice almost 15 years ago, just gave it away to somebody I had worked for in the past. But I would routinely set up a trust.

SPEAKER_03
25:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
25:05

And all the assets were uh placed inside of the trust.

unknown
25:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
25:11

And the trustee would then be responsible to take care of things. They had a will, but the will covered anything that was not inside the trust. And if there's something not inside the trust and I pass, I want to transfer to the trust.

SPEAKER_03
25:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
25:29

That way the will was basically a useless piece of paper because there were no assets to transfer.

SPEAKER_03
25:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
25:37

All the accounts, all the real estate, all the large assets were all already in the trust.

SPEAKER_03
25:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
25:44

And that's the critical thing because now it's easy to transfer a trustee. Oh, okay. So it's easy to change.

SPEAKER_03
25:50

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00
25:52

It's an internal document.

SPEAKER_03
25:54

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00
25:56

Versus a will, which is all probated now.

SPEAKER_03
25:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_00
26:00

It goes to the county. Everybody's looking at it.

SPEAKER_03
26:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
26:03

Trust is a very private situation. You've got much more control over a trust.

SPEAKER_02
26:06

Oh, okay. Those are things people much more control. So let me ask you this. So you're talking, we're talking about the property, and your parent dies and or your your spouse dies, and or I should say your parent dies. We'll go with that one. And the house is in their name. You're not on, you were not on the deed, but they still owe a mortgage. So how and of course the bank won't talk to you because you're not on the account. So how do you handle that?

SPEAKER_00
26:39

At that point in time, you go in an inappropriate situation. Okay. Okay. The house is is now in the will. Hopefully there is a will.

SPEAKER_03
26:48

Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_00
26:50

If there's not, that creates another problem by itself.

SPEAKER_03
26:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
26:53

But now, who's it go to in the will? Who's the executor at will?

SPEAKER_03
26:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
26:57

That person now responsible for this thing. And you want a shit ton of death certificates.

Death Certificates And The Mortgage

SPEAKER_03
27:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
27:03

15, 20 of them. Get them all.

SPEAKER_03
27:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
27:07

Because everybody's going to be asking for one.

SPEAKER_03
27:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
27:09

Any asset that is out there, not inside of a trust, out there by itself in that person's name, they're pretty much going to want a death certificate.

SPEAKER_02
27:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
27:19

So if you present means all the cars and anything else, all the vehicles.

SPEAKER_02
27:22

Right. So if you present the death certificate, say to the mortgage company, and you do you have to show them that you're the executor, and then will they talk to you?

SPEAKER_00
27:32

At that point in time, they married yes.

SPEAKER_03
27:35

Okay. Okay. With that.

SPEAKER_00
27:37

But again, do you want to show everybody all that paperwork every time?

SPEAKER_04
27:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00
27:42

So if you can get things done ahead of time, that's ideal. Most after-the-fact stuff is twice as much work with half as much result.

SPEAKER_02
27:53

Yeah. And how do you get how do you approach your if your pain and I've been, I was lucky. My parents, we had a we had some family members go through some illnesses. And so that prompted them to do like powers of attorney for healthcare, for finance, and do the will. So I I was lucky in that way. But how what's the easiest way for someone to approach their parents or or even their spouse or that to say, hey, we need to set this stuff up. Because again, you could be in your 30s and this could happen to you. Right.

SPEAKER_00
28:32

Now, when you're 60 and 70, you know you're going to die at some point in time. You know, when you're 30, you don't talk about it at all. Right. When you're 70, hey, I know I'm not going to have to live forever. Now, how they want to handle it is a different situation. And it's easy to say, yeah, I want to die at some point in time, and we should take care of these things. But actually doing them is a very different situation. Acknowledging that the problem exists is one thing. Handling the problem is something totally different. Yeah, I'm 70. I know I probably shouldn't be driving as much. Okay. Makes sense. Okay. Okay. Give me your car keys.

SPEAKER_02
29:11

Right. No. Oh, no, no, no. I'm I'm driving local. It's okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00
29:16

There you go. Okay. That's just a car.

SPEAKER_02
29:19

Right, right. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00
29:24

If they got any brokerage accounts.

SPEAKER_02
29:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00
29:26

If they want actually real estate.

SPEAKER_04
29:28

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00
29:29

No, no, no. They understand the problem. They just don't want to deal with it.

SPEAKER_04
29:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00
29:36

And sorry as as caregivers are stuck in a really bad way. And you mentioned, you know, a glass of wine ahead of time when you started. Really more than that.

SPEAKER_04
29:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00
29:50

Okay. Because you know what you're going to do is right. It's not for you, it's for them. And they fight you every step of the way.

SPEAKER_03
30:00

Yes, they do.

SPEAKER_00
30:01

They acknowledge your problem. Well, it yeah, I understand. Yeah, I understand. Yeah, I understand. But they're like kids. Mm-hmm. They are. How many times do our kids do something? Yeah, I'll do it, I'll do it, I'll do it, but it never gets done.

SPEAKER_04
30:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00
30:14

They just change. Now it's your parent doing the same thing to you. You did to them when you were 12.

SPEAKER_04
30:19

Right.

unknown
30:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00
30:21

Things change.

SPEAKER_02
30:22

Right. Exactly. So the best thing is if you could try to talk to them, obviously to talk before something happens, but a lot of times it doesn't.

No Power Of Attorney Options

SPEAKER_02
30:36

So then what does a caregiver do? What if they don't have a power of attorney? What can they do then?

unknown
30:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
30:42

You're stuck behind the eight ball.

SPEAKER_02
30:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
30:45

Big time. Because outside of physically taking care of them, physically taking care of the household, along with your household and your health to some degree, it's just starting to deteriorate quickly because of all the stress.

SPEAKER_04
30:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00
30:56

Okay. Now you're playing catch-up on a situation where you can't catch up. Okay. If it wasn't fixed ahead of time, your chance of fixing it drop off every day. It goes longer.

SPEAKER_03
31:09

Okay. So what would you suggest?

SPEAKER_00
31:13

If you don't fix it early on, your chance to fix it later on, drop off every day because time is working against you. So what health situations working against them.

SPEAKER_02
31:21

So what would be the first thing that you would suggest somebody does? Obviously go through their mail and everything, but what can they do if they don't?

SPEAKER_00
31:31

If they don't want to do anything, it's how badly do you want to do these things? Restoratives.

SPEAKER_03
31:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
31:42

Because it would not be the first time a kid had to go in front of a court and declare a parent incompetent.

SPEAKER_03
31:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
31:53

That's an ugly thing to do.

SPEAKER_03
31:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_00
31:56

I guarantee you, absolutely guarantee, it will raise all hell in the family.

SPEAKER_01
32:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00
32:04

And you'll be the most evil son of a bitch that ever existed.

SPEAKER_01
32:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_00
32:08

The devil will be better than you.

SPEAKER_01
32:10

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00
32:11

Okay. And so here you are, you're stuck, you're trying to help. Your parents are fighting you every step of the way. And now you get your family fighting you also.

SPEAKER_01
32:20

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00
32:21

And when you say, okay, you do it, they all scatter.

SPEAKER_01
32:26

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00
32:28

They all scatter. Everybody's got an opinion. Everybody's wanting to give it to you, but nobody's willing to do anything.

SPEAKER_03
32:35

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00
32:36

Exactly. Yeah. Well, they feel to be it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02
32:40

Yeah. So what is what does somebody do then, obviously, after the parent has passed, and then there's fighting.

Executor Stress And Family Fights

SPEAKER_02
32:48

You know, if their parent did lay it out and say the money or the house, or you know, they wanted to give it to certain people or that, then what do you do if you're the executor?

SPEAKER_00
33:00

Understand. People get ugly, especially family.

SPEAKER_01
33:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_00
33:07

Especially family. You would never have believed it 10 years ago, but after it happens, people get amazingly ugly. And if you're the executor, you want to try and do it as hands-off as possible and try and blame it on somebody else. And so you look to bring some outside sources. Well, I'd like to do that, but this other person said this. And when I work with clients way back when, I always told everybody. I work primarily with small businesses, zero six employees when I was actually working. And I told everybody, look, tell everybody yes, yes, yes. I'll do whatever you want, as long as Dr. Fred says so. See, he's if he says so, no problems at all. Check with him first. The aggregation stop right then and there. Because nobody bothered to check with me.

SPEAKER_03
33:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
33:57

Because they they they knew they were gonna get a no.

SPEAKER_03
33:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
34:01

So they quit aggravating a poor person now.

SPEAKER_03
34:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
34:05

Finding that person who could do that for you.

SPEAKER_03
34:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
34:08

It's gonna be difficult.

SPEAKER_02
34:09

Okay. So they need to find somebody like like yourself or or a lawyer or something. Yeah, somebody they can blame it on to make their life a little bit less stressful after all that.

SPEAKER_00
34:21

A little bit less stressful. I'd like to help, but yeah, this person takes care of everything. I I really can't do anything at all.

SPEAKER_02
34:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
34:27

If they say so, no problem at all.

SPEAKER_02
34:29

Okay. Okay. So what do you think is the thing families find out too late?

SPEAKER_00
34:39

The thing they find out really too late is that nobody sees this coming at all. Nobody saw this thing coming at all. It creeps, it's a little bit of a creep. Every day, every month, every phone call, something's just a little bit off. And you don't exactly know what goes on with it. And then when the money gets involved, who are gonna you're gonna try and find some outside advisor to help along the way. I don't do those things at this point in time. Okay, I'm way too old, I'm retired, I can enjoy myself. Uh I've got a place in Delaware right by the water. Um it's lovely. But what do you do as the caregiver now?

SPEAKER_05
35:24

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00
35:24

You want to find some type of outside help. And it's important to do that and to pull somebody in. Okay. And there are tons of people who will call themselves financial advisors, and you want to pull at least one of those people in, they're gonna be cheaper than attorneys generally.

SPEAKER_03
35:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
35:43

They'll give you tons of advice. Um not exactly legal advice, okay, but they'll give you tons of advice so they don't charge you by the error. But you have to watch these people because again, if the industry is set up to self-perpetuate, okay. Are they really working for you or are they working for themselves? And that's a hard thing to do. So it's a hard thing to find.

SPEAKER_02
36:07

What how can somebody protect themselves so that they're finding somebody who's legit and have the legit credentials? What should they look for?

Vet Advisors With BrokerCheck

SPEAKER_00
36:14

Okay. Um, there's a government site, um, been a uh broker check. Um, in fact, I'd like to offer your folks something free at this point in time. Um, if they go to uh drrouse now.com forward slash check. Um I'll give them a free cheat sheet basically.

SPEAKER_03
36:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
36:36

Six points on here where they can go and they can ask somebody point blank. You know, are you working for me or working for yourself?

SPEAKER_03
36:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
36:44

How are you getting paid? Now it's free. It's just just sign up, put your email in, you can download it, no big deal. Um and I'll I'll give you a link afterwards, make sure it's in your show notes.

SPEAKER_03
36:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
36:57

Um but it's a great little thing. It's an easy way to find out if somebody's actually working for you or not.

SPEAKER_03
37:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
37:07

Because it's a government-run site, it's free, it's nothing to sign up for. And you can check any financial advisor you want.

SPEAKER_03
37:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
37:14

Put their name in, put their numbers in. Pulls up all the problems. Any disclosure problems? Right there. Okay. So you know exactly what goes on. Um, watch insurance agents that call themselves financial planners, um, because the insurance agent just is an insurance agent.

SPEAKER_03
37:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
37:35

Whatever they do, they're gonna stay some type of insurance. There aren't too many insurance agents at this point in time. Um, most of them are brokers to some degree, handling stocks, mutual funds, and/or life insurance. Um, and and they love long-term care insurance. Big commissions and that stuff for them.

SPEAKER_03
37:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
37:51

Um there's nothing wrong with long-term care insurance, but do you really need it or not? Right. Just like the numbers say, and they're they will always have numbers that make it look like, well, you're you're you're gonna you're gonna die, and you're gonna need this long-term care insurance because you don't exactly die, but it's really important to have this long-term care insurance, and you have to make your own judgments on that. Okay, like this is why I quit selling products years ago. It was like walking an alligator swamp. You knew you're gonna get paid, you just didn't know how much.

SPEAKER_02
38:22

Okay.

Key Takeaways And Closing

SPEAKER_02
38:23

Well, yes, we will put that in the show notes because that's very helpful uh for all of our f our listeners because it is very overwhelming, the the caregiving part and then the financial part. It's just it's a lot to handle. It really is. For it. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Frag, for being with us today. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00
38:46

I appreciate the time and you know, hopefully uh it helps some of your folks. You know, I understand where they're at. It's a very difficult position to be in. And you know, if I can help in any way, shape, or form, I'm glad to. Um they pretty much need somebody, you know, I can guide them back and forth of course things, but they need somebody there who understands their situation that's gonna work with them on a one-on-one basis. And I I don't do those things anymore. I could help you know in different areas, but I can point out what problems are gonna be. So you at least know what to look for ahead of time.

SPEAKER_02
39:18

Well, that is very helpful, just that, because sometimes you just don't know what you don't know. So well, thank you so much. So hopefully you guys have enjoyed this edition of Patty's Place. Make sure you leave us a review, subscribe to our YouTube channel. So I hope you enjoyed your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or that glass of wine, and please join us for another edition of Patty's Place.

Welcome To Patty’s Place

SPEAKER_00
0:10

Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we're going to talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. I started this podcast in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia about two and a half years ago. I'm your host, Lisa. So I want this to be a place where you can come and know that you are not alone. So grab your cup of tea, your cup of coffee. If you're having a really bad day, a glass of wine, come join us today. I'm very excited about our guest today. Our guest is Matt Wolf. He is the chaplain, the hospice chaplain at Lightways Hospice in Serious Illness here in Joliet, Illinois. So welcome, Matt.

SPEAKER_02
0:42

Thank you. And I am a chaplain. Oh, a chaplain. I'm the chaplain. We do have, I think Seth.

SPEAKER_00
0:48

Oh, okay.

How Matt Found Hospice Work

SPEAKER_00
0:49

Set. Well, so how did you become a hospice chaplain?

SPEAKER_02
0:55

I wish it was an exciting story, but the bottom line is I was working at at Riverside Hospital down in um in Kankiki. I still do some part-time work there. And my time with them had ended. They didn't have any full-time positions. So I I was looking and I just happened to find one of the chaplains who works here. I just happened to see him at, I think it was a church event. And he said, Hey, have you ever considered hospice? I said, Yeah, not real interested. But he pushed a little bit and said, They happen to be hiring. So if you want to make a call, I can set something up. So I did, and I did a little research, and here we are four years later.

SPEAKER_00
1:41

Okay. So for people who don't know, what does a hospice chaplain, what's their role?

What A Hospice Chaplain Does

SPEAKER_02
1:50

The role I always tell people it's to, if nothing else, to provide an extra layer of support. Now, what does that look like? It can look like many different things. Some people want some spiritual guidance. Some people like to ask the existential questions. You know, why does a loving God allow my mother to go through dementia? Some people just simply want company. I there was a guy I visited the other day, and he has ALS, and unfortunately, he can't verbalize. He just wanted someone to come and watch a few innings of the White Sox game. I didn't learn that in seminary, but that's something you do because that that's what we call just being present, being with the person. So a very short answer is I don't do as much as I be. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00
2:45

Yes. Yes. And and really the chaplain, too, isn't just for the person who has the illness. They're also for the caregiver as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02
2:56

I would think probably I would say probably more than the other disciplines, whether it's the nurse or the CNA, social worker, music, massage. I think the chaplain probably works more with family than they realize. It's because I'm not medical. I can't change a foliage. I can't really give you a great answer about medication and how to turn your loved one over if they have bed sores. Uh, you know, I can certainly give the information to the right person. But the fact of the matter is, and and I would, you know, like right before we started here, I'm I'm at our inpatient unit and Juliet, and I just happened to run into a family in the kitchen. And all I told them was, you know, one of the things we want to make sure of, no matter what our role here is, is to make sure that you are not walking through this alone. Period. And if if that's the only thing they remember from a chaplain visit, okay.

SPEAKER_00
3:56

Well, yeah, because you do feel very much alone when you're a caregiver, even when you're with other people. You it it is a very lonely road to walk with it.

SPEAKER_02
4:05

It is. And one thing I need to remember, and I have to remind myself is I can walk away from someone's home or wherever their facility is, and I go about my day. But and you know this, you don't. You you're you go about your day, which is the same thing it was before I walked in, and that's caring for, in your case, your mom.

SPEAKER_00
4:28

Right. Yeah.

Fear, Trust, And Being Heard

SPEAKER_00
4:30

And I'm sure as you mentioned before, like that you obviously you get that spirituality question all the time. But let's talk a little bit about spirituality and dying. So with let's start with the patient. Like, what how do you guide them, especially, you know, if they're they're scared or you know, I'm sure, like you said, you get all those existential questions.

SPEAKER_02
4:52

A lot of existential questions. And those are those are the best, those are my favorite kind of visits because that that but that that tells me that the patient is thinking and they're not trying to put on a front, like, oh, everything's fine. I got this. Well, no, everything's not fine, you know, and everything's not fine with the family, and that's okay. But I think for me, the number one rule is when I'm asked the next question, I just I can't answer it. And I'm not gonna pretend, you know, in other words, if someone says, Well, why does a loving God allow allow someone to die who didn't do anything wrong? It wouldn't be right for me to say, well, that's because your mom's still candy in third grade. You know, right, that's just not how it works. And what I have found more than anything else is that nine times out of ten, people are not looking for answers, they're just looking for someone to ask the question to. They're looking to talk with, not to. And I I affirm every question I get. Someone's I I had an initial visit with someone the other uh the other day, and I forget exactly what her diagnosis is. It's not dementia. She was very much with it. And the first thing she said to me was, Chapman, I'm I'm afraid of the future. That's what she said. That wasn't a question, but it was.

SPEAKER_00
6:14

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02
6:16

So I so what I did, I just repeated her. I said, You're afraid of the future. I said, I am too, at times. It's scary to live in the unknown. And no, you know, I didn't give her an actual response, but she knew that I was listening and she knew that I cared about what she said. And that because that was at the beginning of the visit, the rest of the visit was very smooth. And it is you establish trust that way.

SPEAKER_00
6:41

Yeah, like you said, because sometimes they just want because I I would think it's probably um you probably see a lot of different family dynamics, and sometimes the person who's ill can't have those conversations with family members sometimes.

SPEAKER_02
6:57

Exactly, or they just don't want to. Right. It it's kind of like the the kid in school is gonna give the teacher a much different answer than they would give their parent. Because it's there's a different level of trust. And I understand that. Listen, if I were if I were in a situation where I was terminally ill or seriously ill, I would feel much better, much more comfortable talking to someone who was not in my direct family about life, death, dying, pain, isolation, meaning than I would my daughter or my wife.

SPEAKER_01
7:32

You know, they've got they got enough to worry about. Right.

Anger As Grief In Disguise

SPEAKER_00
7:41

I'm sure you have to sometimes anger comes up, whether it's with the patient or the caregiver. So how are some ways that people can deal with that anger? It could be towards God, towards life, the universe, but you know all of the above.

SPEAKER_02
8:00

Yes, and and you know, anger, anger in and of itself is not an awful thing. It it's a secondary emotion, and it's always, and I look, I get angry about things too. We all do, but what's behind the anger? Is it shame? Is it guilt? Is it sadness? Is it just fear? And a lot of anger is fear-based and kind of goes back to what I said earlier. A lot of people are afraid of the unknown. Even if we're staunch Christian, staunch believers, or whatever your background is, and our faith tells us, well, we're gonna go to a better place, that that's all well and good, but it doesn't always take away the fear in the here and now. So to answer your question, I don't I will never try to stifle someone's anger. You know, I'll affirm it, I'll validate it. Now, obviously, if it gets to the point where it's it can get a little violent or people are starting to drop four-letter words or screaming at other, you know, about other team members, okay, maybe we need to come to some sort of a solution. But as far as questioning God and saying this isn't fair, no, it's not fair. It's not fair that your mom had dementia. It's not fair that the person I saw today is you know in their 50s and has stage four pancreatic. It's not fair.

SPEAKER_00
9:20

No, it is, it isn't. It isn't. And you know, it doesn't, I know people mean well when they're like, well, you know, that means that they accomplished everything and you know, God's calling them home and all that. It doesn't really give the family member the comfort that you think it does because you think you're just like, but they're not here, you know, why them?

SPEAKER_02
9:40

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And and you're right, people do mean well. It it's I I understand that, and you know, I've said things I probably shouldn't have said too in those situations, but do they always bring real comfort to a family? Probably not, and and that's why sometimes less is more. And as as one, a lot of chaplains, if not most of them, are former church ministers or at least speakers somewhere, and you know, we're taught to just to speak, to preach, to flesh out scripture and to get up there in the pulpit and talk for 25 to 45 minutes. But now it completely turns. It's about listening and respecting your pulpit, not pretending that I'm the expert.

SPEAKER_00
10:25

What would you would you give that advice to some if you were giving advice to family members to really to step out of their grief in that moment and try to listen to the person who's who's who's dying?

SPEAKER_02
10:40

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I I don't I try not to advise as much as well, right softly suggest.

SPEAKER_00
10:46

There you go, softly suggest.

SPEAKER_02
10:48

Well, I but sometimes people do ask. And I mean not not all the time. And and again, a lot of that has to do with trust, and that's why it's important if I can and if the family wants to get into their into their uh either their house or their facility multiple times just so you can learn how to read the room. You can learn a little bit about the family. But I more times than not, the family members are angrier or have a more vitriolic reaction than the patient themselves. Yes. I'll I will never forget that there's a guy in his 40s, relatively young guy, and uh he he was dying, he knew he was dying, and he had a he had a wife and two relatively young kids, and and he just said to me, He's like, Listen, I I have the easy part. And I was thinking, like, well, and then it made sense. He's like, Listen, I'm gonna go, I'm not gonna have to deal with pain anymore. But they are that's a hundred percent right. Yeah, which is why, as we were talking about before we started, the bereavement aspect is so important.

SPEAKER_00
11:58

Yes.

Spirituality, Community, And Grief

SPEAKER_00
11:59

And speaking of that, uh w what kind of role does spirituality play in grief, would you say?

SPEAKER_02
12:07

In grief? I think I think our relationship rather than religion, our relationship with whatever our higher power is for me, it's God. As if I can be open, if if I'm grieving, or you're grieving, if we can be open with God, if we can shake our fists, so to speak, and not fear any retribution, I think that's good. I think that's healthy in grief, because as you know and many know, there's really no right way to grieve. Right. And there's there's ups, there's downs. And some days you feel awesome, and other days you turn on the radio and you you'll hear a song that reminds you of mom, and then it's you're not gonna have a great moment there. And that's okay too. But for for me, as far as the spiritual aspect, spirituality is it can be communal. And some people rely on their church family or synagogue family or or mosque family, and that can be really, really helpful. But even not, even if you do not belong to an organized religion, if you want to call it that, there's always people in your path. There's always people that God puts in your path, I believe, at the right time for the right reason. And whether that's while you are going through the anticipatory grief before your loved one dies, or maybe afterwards, there's always people, I think. There's going to be people that God puts in our lives to help help soften the blow and just to be someone to talk to.

SPEAKER_00
13:46

I would agree with that. And that you have to you have to be you have to be open to it. You know, you might not realize at the time, but if you can be open to it, then you can kind of get that help a little bit. Or like you said, sometimes it's just a conversation somebody you have with somebody and it just made you feel better in that moment.

SPEAKER_02
14:05

Yeah, and especially if it's someone who has been through what you've been through, and and not to say that they're because every situation is different. We could have 10 people who have lost mothers to dementia or children, heaven forbid, with cancer, but they're all gonna grieve differently, and the situation and the context are gonna be different. So to say I know how you feel, that that's not helpful. But to say, hey, I've been through this too, I can talk to you if you want, or I can listen to you better yet, if you want. I think uh there there is a certain power in numbers when it comes to grief, because grieving alone is hard. Going through any type of of illness alone, I can't imagine life is hard enough when you're healthy going through it alone. So we we need we need support, all of us.

SPEAKER_00
14:59

Oh, definitely. Um, and I've said before, like hospice not only helped my mom, but helped me as well, too, with all the services and stuff. I still go, you know, as a matter of fact, um Lightways has a parent loss group that I was at last night, which is just it it's very nice. It's a very, you know, it's just nice it in any of the events too that uh lightways has, you just don't feel alone when you go there. It is crazy as it sounds, you feel better when you leave because you you you bond with knowing that, yeah, they they have the same feelings that you do, even if the situations are different with it.

SPEAKER_02
15:38

Yeah, you know, loss is the great equalizer. You know, we we can all put on a front, but we we're all in other words, no no one no one's gonna walk out of here without grieving.

SPEAKER_00
15:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02
15:48

It's it's not possible.

SPEAKER_00
15:50

No, it isn't.

Signs Near The End Of Life

SPEAKER_00
15:52

Then out of curiosity, have you um ever seen or experienced any stories of like people when they are dying? Like, do they see angels or family members or things like that?

SPEAKER_02
16:04

But someone asked me that same question yesterday. Did they no, she did. I mean, but this is a this is a patient of a of a loved one, and she's saying, What's gonna happen? And I don't know if she was again, this goes back to her point. I don't know if she was looking for an answer. Right. She said, Hey, when how am I gonna know when mom is dying? Are there gonna be angels in the room that come get her? And then again, I don't know the answer. However, right, it's very real that maybe her mom or whoever the patient is will experience something in the room that I don't or you don't. That I would never discount. Yeah, when when patients are are are at the end, or kind of at the end of their time, yes, you see them reaching out a lot, at least I do. And I wholeheartedly believe that their reality is a little bit different from ours, and it's different than it was a couple years ago for them when they were healthy. And I think it's totally normal. And it's very, especially in hospice. Now, this is much different than if someone is gets caught in a horrible accident and is dying in front of you. But in hospice, you know, if we're doing our job, then the person who is dying is comfortable, and it's a very peaceful death, and there's no struggle. And that to me is very spiritual because everybody, you know, we we in America we hate to talk about death and dying, it's just not fun dinner conversation.

SPEAKER_00
17:34

Yes, yes, we do. But we're all gonna die.

SPEAKER_02
17:36

And why not, if you have the opportunity, why not do it peacefully? And to me, uh, it gives the family so much so much peace, knowing that, hey, yes, it's awful. I just lost my loved one. But she went peacefully, and I I can live with myself the rest of my life knowing that she did not suffer in the last hours, minutes of her life.

SPEAKER_00
18:04

And I will say, for me, my mom did, she said, you know, she she thought she saw her brother, she thought she saw her mom. And I swear, I think that she saw some of our dogs because she kept like going like this, like she was batting. And I was like, who's there? You know, like and I just went with her, you know. So I think I think that's why she showed me that more. I I can't say if she did if my dad noticed that or not, but I was kind of open to it with it, and that actually did bring me peace because I was like, I I knew she was seeing them, and I completely believe she did, you know.

SPEAKER_02
18:44

I I would totally can yeah, I can't confirm it. If I would affirm it, I think that makes total sense, and you know, none of us are gonna know for sure until we're in that exactly, but but that that gives me peace, you know, and and right now my my family for the most part is not ill, they're pretty healthy. But if and when it gets to the point where they're nearing the end, okay, I I will firmly believe that yes, they're they're experiencing some peace that we've seen here.

SPEAKER_00
19:14

Yeah, I mean, because it and it is hard though to see it. So, like uh from a caregiver point of view, again, that becomes something to be open and to be able to give that person who's dying that that space, that opportunity to to do that in front of you, you know, because I think they sense you know, yeah, and and as I think we've discussed before, the you know, your mom, for instance, knew you were in the room at that time.

SPEAKER_02
19:48

And and I I I I believe this also, if if I am in someone's room as they're dying, but also their family members are, they can kind of differentiate. Okay, this guy's voice is not the same as theirs, his aura is not the same as and in other words, hearing as we say is the last scene to go. I I fully believe that uh the man or woman who is dying is fully aware of who is in that room.

SPEAKER_00
20:18

Well, that can give me comfort.

SPEAKER_02
20:20

So I I yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00
20:23

You know, and as a matter of fact, I uh well, my mom picked out all her songs for her service way before she got sick, you know.

SPEAKER_01
20:31

Sure, remember?

SPEAKER_00
20:33

Yes, her her bury manilow and her Barbara Streisand and all that. Her burying manilow, you know. So I played a lot of that music that I knew she liked, you know, during that last week because I thought, well, that could bring her comfort too, because she loved it, you know, with that.

SPEAKER_02
20:48

Music is a huge, I mean, this is a different podcast altogether, but music is a huge, huge conduit for those who are experienced near death and to those who are dead and and or dying, and and it's such a spiritual, there's so much spirituality in music, in music therapy. Um, again, that that's not the point of this particular chat, but it's it's there's a reason that we have music therapists and also oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00
21:17

I mean it really is, it's amazing what it does.

Caregiver Self-Care That Counts

SPEAKER_00
21:20

So what kind of advice would you give a caregiver like to help ease and make it more peaceful, not just for the patient, but for themselves too?

SPEAKER_02
21:32

Self-care, you know. I I I'm never gonna tell someone you need to do this, you need to go outside and get a sandwich, you need to go walk around. But, you know, try try to reframe it in a way that, hey, listen, you know, every caregiver needs a caregiver. And if you're not taking and it again, it's easier said than done. Yeah, you know that. Right. But if if if if you're not taking care of yourself, you're not really gonna be much help for your loved one. And even if that means, you know what, find someone to watch mom or dad or whoever just for a half hour, go outside, get some exercise, drive around, I don't know, take a nap, which is why we we do have volunteers here at lightways. But it that that to me is the number one thing. And the number two is probably always I always try to remind people do not judge your emotions. That actually might be number one. Because as you know, there's there's gonna be plenty of emotions. And when we're not sleeping, it messes with our physical well-being, our emotional well-being, our mental well-being. And that whole piece, that that whole puzzle comes together in pieces that are not great for our loved one if we're not if we're not at least a little bit taking care of ourselves. I'm not saying, you know, go on a diet and eat only salads, but you know, just be aware that you're this is a physical grind. And most people know. Most people know that they just it's almost like they just need someone who they don't really know to get permission.

SPEAKER_00
23:15

Yeah. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02
23:17

Chaplan said it's okay. I'm gonna go do that.

SPEAKER_00
23:21

Well, um the other thing that comes up besides anger, too, I would say, is probably guilt.

Guilt, Hospice, And Letting Go

SPEAKER_02
23:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00
23:28

Yeah. So what can a caregiver, you know, when they just they feel guilty, like maybe they didn't do enough, they didn't take care of their loved one enough.

SPEAKER_02
23:38

Well, it's interesting when every now and again I'll go on um an admission visit, which is what it sounds like. I'm sure you had to be on one when mom was um admitted into our services. You know, for for me, it's almost like when the the POA or whoever in the family is at that meeting and they sign a piece of paper saying, Okay, I'm giving you consent to begin hospice. Not that it's a binding contract or anything, but once you once you put your your name down, it's like, oh my, what did I just do? And am I giving up on my loved one? And I know, you know, the answer, you're not giving up, you're letting go. There is a big difference. But again, like with any other emotion, I I will validate it. I I don't agree that you should feel guilty, but I also don't want to tell you how to feel. In other words, if that's how you feel, okay, let's work with that. And furthermore, the the other guilt I actually see or hear about more than that is oh my goodness, I wasn't there when mom died. How can I forgive myself? Well, you know, maybe mom didn't want you there when she died, and I don't mean it negatively, but it's very possible that, and we see it here in the impatient unit a lot. Sometimes people just want to be alone. Other times they don't, and honestly, we don't always have that answer. But um, yeah, you know, there was a guy who who who I remember he was always with his, I think it was his mom, always. And I think she died when he had to go to the restroom, and that was it in that 30 seconds or whatever. And you know, he still beats himself up about it. And that's a shame. It is.

SPEAKER_00
25:24

Well, I know that uh, I mean, I was there with my mom. However, uh sometimes a couple people have asked me, like, did I know the exact time? I don't because I she I her breathing was starting to go, you know, I could tell it was changing and everything. And I like had woke up and I I could still hear her. And then I could close my eyes for a little bit again, and then like the next time when I woke up and I was literally like right there, I didn't hear I didn't hear her. And then, you know, I had to go get the nurse because she was in memory care and everything. Right. But in the back of my mind, I thought she didn't want me to hear her last breath. I I just I could see that of my mom, you know.

SPEAKER_02
26:07

I could know that and I that totally makes sense.

SPEAKER_00
26:11

You know, I could see her sparing me that because she I remember her telling me about when my grandma, her mom, she had pancreatic cancer, and she always would talk about like the death rattle and that kind of stuff. And um, and she would tell me that my grandma smelled roses before she went to the diabetic coma. And when the one day my my mom said she smelled roses one day, and she and I was like, uh-oh. I was like, because I remember that. I was like, oh, okay, you know, association. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02
26:43

But it's but but getting back to your original question about feeling guilt in the just by placing someone on hospice, that's why it's important to have a good team to help educate the caregivers, whether it's the chaplain, the social worker, the nurse, CNA. You know, we we've seen this so many times. We've had so many patients, and you are not the first person to sign a consent form, you're not gonna be the last.

SPEAKER_00
27:14

I think there's so many misconceptions about hospice.

Hospice Myths And Living Fully

SPEAKER_00
27:18

You know, yeah, so many people think, oh, well, you well, my mom used to always say it used to make her so mad. She used to say that when people, you know, were sick or they had cancer and it was, you know, towards the end, she used to say that they didn't give up, their body gave out, that there's a difference in with that uh you know give up, body gave out.

SPEAKER_02
27:39

Yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_00
27:40

Yeah, and you're not bringing hospices, you're not giving up, and it doesn't mean it's right at the end. You know, I was amazed at all the services um that are out there for it. Um Right.

SPEAKER_02
27:55

It's letting letting go is not the same as giving up. Giving up kind of points to, well, I'm quitting or I'm not following through on something. Listen, if if a medical doctor who knows what they're doing tells you, listen, there's nothing we can do at this point.

SPEAKER_00
28:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02
28:11

Well then all that of your core you can't, you're not giving up at that point. You say, okay.

unknown
28:16

Right.

SPEAKER_02
28:17

Let's let's focus on quality. And the whole quality versus quantity debate, that's that's also valid, but you know, so many people, by the time you start your hospice journey, okay. How can I make how can I find meaning, value, and joy in however much time I have left? Which, by the way, is a good exercise for any of us. True. We're ill or not. How do I find meaning and value? And that's another that's another duty of a hospice chaplain, in my opinion. And and it's challenging because if someone's sitting in a bed all day and they can't really move, their conception of joy and value can be a lot different than it was five years ago.

SPEAKER_00
28:59

Oh, right.

SPEAKER_02
29:00

So how do we reach how do we reframe that? How do we change, how do we move the goalposts, so to speak? And um, you know, I'm here for that, I'm here to help.

SPEAKER_00
29:09

Well, yeah, you know, and if there's some things that they still want to do or say or that, and it becomes so hard with all you know, different family dynamics and that with it.

SPEAKER_02
29:18

That's another story altogether. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it it a serious illness can really bring out it can bring out the best, it can bring out the worst in families, and we've seen plenty of examples of both.

SPEAKER_00
29:33

Oh, I'm sure you have.

SPEAKER_02
29:37

Yeah, I'll just leave it at least.

SPEAKER_00
29:39

Yeah, I mean, it's just so it's just not easy with it.

SPEAKER_02
29:45

No, it's absolutely not easy.

SPEAKER_00
29:47

Yeah, so so what other misconceptions would you say people have about hospice then?

SPEAKER_02
29:55

We're the death squad.

SPEAKER_00
29:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_02
29:59

If you ever want to if you if you ever really want to freak someone out, go to a hospital ER and announce yourself as a chaplain, but that's another story. Um that's not hospice.

SPEAKER_00
30:11

But yeah.

SPEAKER_02
30:11

I think that the yeah, the mis the misconception, and and this is why I struggle a little bit when when people are given, well, uh an exact number. Like, well, mom has anywhere between seven and nine days left. Right.

SPEAKER_00
30:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02
30:28

Now, for Medicare purposes, we we've got to assume that it's six months or less. Now right. We have to. I I've got I've had plenty, I don't remember the exact uh amount of time that mom was with us. I think it was more than six months, right?

SPEAKER_00
30:40

So no, actually, it was she came in in September and she passed the beginning of January.

SPEAKER_02
30:46

Really? It was only four months. Okay. Right. Well then some examples look, I I've had people in in our care since I started in 2022. You just you never know.

SPEAKER_00
30:58

Right, you don't know.

SPEAKER_02
30:59

So I think anyway, to to your question, one of the misconceptions is okay, I just started hospice, that means they're gonna die tomorrow. And and you could still, we don't see it a whole lot, but some people, if they're if they're well enough while they're under our care, can go, they can leave, they can go to Wisconsin and go visit their friends. I had someone go to Mardi Gras. And now we had to we had to contact one of the hospice places in New Orleans just to make sure. But you can do that. I had another patient go to a concert at Soldier Field. Obviously, it's not the same as it was before, but it's still you're still living, you're still able to, at least in part, live your life. And that goes back to the meaning, value, and joy.

SPEAKER_00
31:48

Yes, yes, with it all. Um well, I would definitely I I tell everybody that if if you get to that point, you should bring hospice in because you have so many uh resources, not just for the patient, but for the caregiver. And you always forget as a caregiver that you do need help too with it.

SPEAKER_02
32:08

Yeah, you know, there's that every time I drive home on 80, there's that big billboard that says it's okay not to be okay. I don't know if you've seen that. And um, it's a good reminder. Right. You know, it and and and I I don't know if I said this earlier or or maybe I said it to someone else today, but I I I worry a lot more about the caregivers who pre who tell me that everything's fine, there's nothing wrong, than the ones who say, I am really struggling, I'm having a terrible day, I'm pulling my hair out. At least you're being honest.

unknown
32:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02
32:41

You can respect that.

SPEAKER_00
32:42

Yeah, it it's okay to not be okay. It's hard. It's hard, but absolutely.

SPEAKER_02
32:47

And sometimes, look, sometimes you you do need to kind of reach down and be maybe a little stronger. I don't like to use that word, then maybe you want to be, even if it's just in that moment, if there's other people in your family who are really breaking down, maybe you need to kind of at that time become a little bit more firm or just a little bit more stoic for lack of a better. That doesn't mean you don't break down later. You know, as long again, as long as you give yourself time to experience all the emotions, that's all you can do.

SPEAKER_00
33:22

Yeah, I I just think that yeah, I think that's very important that we need to feel the feelings because you're not gonna run away from them even if you think that you are.

SPEAKER_02
33:34

Well, you can run away from them, but you're not gonna hide from them.

SPEAKER_00
33:37

That's right. You won't hide from them at all.

SPEAKER_02
33:40

Yeah, so someone someone told me once if you don't if you don't respect your feelings, they're gonna come out sideways. And that's when you get to anger, and that's another story altogether.

SPEAKER_00
33:52

Yeah, that's when it gets really crazy. Yeah, yes, yes. But um, yeah, I mean I I well, and you did my mom's service too, so that was it was very much her, and I was very happy with that before it.

SPEAKER_02
34:08

Yeah, that was um that was one of the coldest days I can remember. Yes, it was. I'm guessing it was sometime in January.

SPEAKER_00
34:15

It was January, yeah.

SPEAKER_02
34:16

Yeah, um, yes, and you you and dad and everybody else involved did a did a great job just really remembering, celebrating her life, and yeah, you know, that's you and and and many others, you know, really yeah it's not not that you want hospice as part of your life, but you embraced it. You embraced the fact that okay, mom's not coming back from this. It stinks, it's unfortunate, it's not fair. So what do we do to honor her life the best we can in these last four months? And you did that.

SPEAKER_00
34:54

Yeah. You know, well, I just wanted to do what was best for her, which is hard, you know. I just want her to have peace.

SPEAKER_02
35:03

It's really hard with someone uh with dementia or Alzheimer's or any of the cerebrovascular diseases because unless you talked about this way ahead of time, you're not 100% sure what is right because you're not getting that validation from mom.

SPEAKER_00
35:19

Well, you know, my mom told me long before she got sick what she wanted for her service and for all of that.

Planning Goodbyes With Humor

SPEAKER_00
35:25

Okay. Oh, yeah. Well, she she used to say that she was gonna be it was gonna be by invitation only.

SPEAKER_02
35:30

By invitation.

SPEAKER_00
35:32

She used to say, because if they didn't talk to me and didn't like me when I was alive, they don't they shouldn't be coming to see me when I'm dead. That's what she's saying.

SPEAKER_01
35:41

You tell them that. That's right.

SPEAKER_00
35:43

And I was like, Mom, what am I supposed to do if they're not on the list? She's like, Well, I don't care because I'll be dead.

SPEAKER_02
35:48

She was like, Yeah, she's not gonna have much of a say in that.

SPEAKER_00
35:52

Yeah, and then she was like, Don't you dare have an open casket. I don't want anyone looking at me. That's why I I was very careful about what pictures we had with it. Oh, yeah, okay, because then she decided she was gonna be cremated because why spend all that money on the casket and all that? So she's like, do that.

SPEAKER_02
36:09

And then I had to be careful, it isn't it's not cheap.

SPEAKER_00
36:13

No, so she I had to be careful with the pictures that I chose because she didn't like her picture taken either. So she excellent, yeah. So well, thank you so much for joining us, Matt.

SPEAKER_02
36:26

Amen.

SPEAKER_00
36:27

Yes, so we'll tell people Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_02
36:30

Thanks for having me. I your your show is great, and I wish you continued success.

SPEAKER_00
36:35

Well, thank you. Thank you very much. So I hope everyone has enjoyed this episode of Patty's Place. Hope you enjoyed your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or if you're having that really bad day, that glass of wine. And just remember, you are not alone right here. And make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel, leave us a review, and we will catch you next time on another edition of Patty's

You’re Not Alone, Closing Notes

SPEAKER_00
36:55

Place.