Grief can make you feel like you have to be “fine” for everyone else, even when you are falling apart in the quiet moments. We wanted a conversation that cuts through the clichés and actually helps, so we invited Nicolette Vasquez, Team Leader of Grief Support at Lightways Hospice and Serious Illness Care in Joliet, Illinois, to walk with us through what grief counseling looks like in real life and why it can be such a relief to have someone simply hold space.
We talk about the core purpose of grief counseling: not getting over the loss, not moving on, and not trying to fix what cannot be fixed. Instead, we focus on learning your grief, normalizing the roller coaster of emotions, and finding ways to keep a comforting bond with your loved one. We also dig into grief triggers and the surprising way they can change over time, like a song, a scent, or a familiar item in the grocery store that first knocks you over and later becomes a source of connection.
Then we tackle grief myths that add pressure, including the idea that grief is linear, that grief is only sadness, and that time alone heals everything. Nicolette explains how grief support can include one on one bereavement counseling, support groups, grief education workshops, and community events and why connecting with other grievers can reduce isolation in a way nothing else can. We also share practical resource tips, including how hospice programs can be a smart starting point and how to search by zip code through national hospice networks, plus options like telehealth grief counseling for added access.
If you are navigating loss, dementia caregiving, anticipatory grief, or the aftermath of a death, listen along and take what you need. Subscribe, share this with someone who could use a steadier hand, and leave a review so more caregivers and grievers can find this support.
Welcome To Patty’s Place
SPEAKER_02
0:10
Welcome
to
Patty's
Place,
a
place
where
we'll
talk
about
grief,
dementia,
and
caregiving.
I'm
your
host,
Lisa.
I
named
this
podcast
in
honor
of
my
mom,
Pat,
who
passed
away
about
two
and
a
half
years
ago
from
dementia.
So
I
want
this
to
be
a
place
where
you
know
you're
not
alone
and
you
can
not
feel
so
overwhelmed.
So
grab
your
cup
of
tea,
your
cup
of
coffee,
or
if
you're
having
that
really
bad
day,
a
glass
of
wine,
and
come
join
us
today.
I'm
very
excited
about
our
guest
today.
Joining
us
today
is
Nicolette
Vasquez.
She's
the
team
leader
of
grief
support
at
Lightways
Hospice
and
Serious
Illness
Care
in
Joliet,
Illinois.
So
welcome,
Nicolette.
SPEAKER_01
0:43
Thank
you.
I'm
so
excited
to
be
here
and
honored.
Thank
you
so
much
for
inviting
me.
SPEAKER_02
0:47
Yes,
yes.
So
I
uh
What Grief Counseling Really Is
SPEAKER_02
0:50
I
really
wanted
to
talk
about
this.
So
can
can
you
tell
us
what
is
grief
counseling?
SPEAKER_01
0:57
Oh,
such
a
great
question.
We're
jumping
right
into
it.
I
love
it.
Yeah.
Um
grief
counseling
really
gets
to
be
this
space
where
you
get
to
take
off
the
mask
that
we
often
have
in
other
places
of
our
life.
You
know,
so
much
of
grief
is
ingrained
in
us
that
we
have
to
be
strong.
And
when
people
ask
how
we're
doing,
we
have
those
cliche
sayings
of,
I'm
okay
one
day
at
a
time,
whatever
it
may
be.
But
inside
we're
really
feeling
fragile
and
vulnerable
and
afraid
and
these
dark
emotions.
And
so
what
grief
counseling
gets
to
be
is
that
safe
place
for
you
to
take
off
that
mask
and
pull
back
those
layers
of
how
you're
really
feeling
in
your
grief
journey
to
a
place
where
you
can
share
your
story,
share
your
loved
one's
story
in
a
place
with
someone
that
can
hold
it.
Because
I
think
that's
part
of
the
challenge
in
grief
is
that
we
don't
want
to
be
a
burden
to
others.
We
are
fearful
that
they
may
not
be
able
to
actually
sit
with
the
emotions
we're
feeling.
And
so
we
get
to
be
that
place
for
you
and
hopefully
in
the
process
help
you
learn
about
your
grief
and
normalize
it
so
you
don't
feel
like
there's
something
wrong
with
you,
um,
and
start
to
find
new
purposes
in
your
life
and
really
start
to
make
sense
of
the
loss.
Um,
and
that's
kind
of
the
very
surface
level
of
it,
but
then
it's
really
kind
of
moving
at
your
pace
to
figure
out
what
your
unique
needs
are
because
two
people
coming
to
grief
counseling
might
have
two
completely
different
needs
that
they
have,
and
so
we
get
to
really
figure
out
what
your
grief
journey
is
and
what
we
can
do
to
help
you
on
that
specific
journey.
SPEAKER_02
2:35
And
I
think
that's
really
true
that
you
hold
space
because
it
is
hard
when
it's
your
friend
or
your
loved
one
or
a
you
know
family
member
because
I
think
they
want
to
fix
it.
And
and
a
lot
of
times
you
don't
want
to
be
fixed,
so
to
speak,
you
just
want
someone
to
listen
to
help
guide
you
through
your
journey.
SPEAKER_01
2:54
Yeah,
grief
isn't
something
you
can't
fix,
right?
The
only
way
that
you
can
fix
it
is
your
person
coming
back
to
life.
And
so
I
think
people
have
really
good
intentions
when
they're
wanting
to
fix
it,
and
sometimes
it's
because
it's
hard
for
them
to
see
us
in
that
pain
because
they
care
about
us,
right?
And
so
they
don't
want
us
to
be
in
that
pain,
but
really
the
most
honorable
thing
you
can
do
for
someone
grieving
is
to
let
them
sit
in
it
and
not
try
to
pull
them
out
of
it,
but
just
honor
that
space
and
let
them
feel
it.
But
it's
uncomfortable
for
people,
I
think.
SPEAKER_02
3:27
It
is
uncomfortable.
Hospice Support For Caregivers
SPEAKER_02
3:29
So
how
how
did
you
become
decide
to
become
a
grief
counselor?
Like
what
drew
you
to
this
type
of
work?
SPEAKER_01
3:35
Yeah,
I
wasn't
that
little
girl
in
school
that
was
like,
one
day
I'm
gonna
grow
up
and
be
a
grief
counselor.
There
might
be
people
out
there,
but
that
wasn't
me.
Um,
I
was
actually
and
it's
it's
interesting
because
I
think
a
lot
of
people
who
come
to
hospice
have
a
story
that
brings
them
to
hospice.
Like
there's
something
that
kind
of
pulls
them
into
this
world.
And
that's
so
true
for
me.
I
was
working
at
a
different
agency
providing
counseling.
I
was
starting
to,
I'll
be
honest,
feel
very
burnt
out
of
like
holding
on
to
this
space,
questioning
like,
is
this
really
what
I
want
to
be
doing?
And
do
I
feel
like
I'm
making
a
difference
in
what
I'm
doing?
Um,
all
the
while
my
grandfather,
um,
who
I
call
Papu,
I'm
Greek,
so
we
call
our
grandparents
Papu.
So
my
Papu
was
battling
cancer
and
continuously
kind
of
declining.
So
I'm
managing
my
personal
life
stressors
on
top
of
my
career
stressors,
and
I
was
just
really
struggling.
Um,
my
papu
wound
up
signing
on
to
hospice
services
as
a
contract
then.
And
so
I
remember
sitting
in
the
hospital
and
these
hospice
teams
started
coming
in,
they're
the
members,
and
I
actually
thought
hospice
was
a
grim
reaper.
I
don't
know
if
maybe
I'm
alone
in
that,
but
that's
what
I
originally
thought.
Hospice
was,
right?
They're
like
death
coming
in.
Right.
And
I
was
like,
oh
gosh,
here
we
go,
another
person.
But
it
was
so
beautiful
because
actually
they
brought
this
sense
of
peace
and
that
I
hadn't
been
feeling
for
a
while.
They
they
didn't
come
in
and
try
and
fix
it,
like
we're
saying.
They
just
wanted
to
know
how
I
was
doing
in
this
moment,
and
they
encouraged
me
to
slow
down
and
feel
what
I'm
feeling
and
not
have
to
be
the
caregiver
for
my
papu,
but
be
the
granddaughter
for
my
papu
and
what
that
was
like.
And
I
remember
them
leaving
and
just
having
this
feeling
of
like,
wow,
there's
something
really
special
here.
This
is
not
what
I
thought
this
was.
And
them
just
sitting
with
me
gave
me
that
space
to
kind
of
take
a
breath.
And
I
just
thought,
how
do
I
do
that?
Like,
how
do
I
get
involved
in
this?
And
two
weeks
after
my
papu
had
died,
a
posting
came
up
for
Lightways
as
the
grief
counselor.
And
I
remember
just
kind
of
looking
up
and
being
like,
got
it.
Thank
you,
Papu.
Like,
this
was
you
trying
to
guide
me
into
this
field.
Um,
and
I
haven't
looked
back.
Like,
I
definitely
have
found
my
home
here
at
Lightways.
I
love
it.
It's
hard
work.
I'm
not
here
to
say
that
it's
rainbow
and
lollipops,
right?
You're
we're
sitting
with
people
in
really
vulnerable
moments,
but
I
really
look
at
it
as
an
honor
that
they're
allowing
me
to
be
in
that
vulnerable
space
with
them.
Feeds
my
soul,
you
know.
SPEAKER_02
6:20
Oh,
definitely.
And
I
think
too,
like
you
said,
a
lot
of
people
think,
oh
God,
hospice,
that
means
it's
the
it's
the
very
end.
You
know,
I
don't
think
people
realize
everything
that
hospice
offers,
not
just
to
the
patient,
but
to
the
caregiver.
Yes.
It's
wraparound.
Yeah,
and
it
was
so
it
was
a
wonderful
experience.
I
I
cannot
say
enough
about
hospice
with
my
mom,
you
know,
because
she
had
it
for
about
four
months.
And
I,
you
know,
I
tell
everybody
all
the
time,
you
know,
you
need
to
look
into
it
because
they
help
so
much.
And
sometimes
it
is
just
the
fact
that
they
hold
that
space
for
you
as
a
caregiver
and
they
tell
you
it's
okay,
how
you're
feeling,
or
here's
how
we
could
help.
And
it's
just,
you're
like,
oh
my
God,
you
can
take
care
of
this,
even
if
it's
as
simple
as,
hey,
we're
bringing
in
the
supplies,
you
know,
of
the
diapers
or
things
like
that.
You're
like,
oh,
I
don't
have
to
run
to
the
store
anymore
and
get
this,
you
know.
Yeah,
yeah.
SPEAKER_01
7:21
People
think,
and
I
thought
this
as
well
that
hospice
is
just
about
the
patient.
Um,
it
really,
you
know,
at
lightways,
especially,
I'm
always
telling
people,
your
whole
family
is
part
of
the
lightweight
family
now.
Like,
yes,
it's
an
honor
that
we're
taking
care
of
your
mom
or
we're
taking
care
of
your
brother,
um,
and
we're
here
for
them,
but
we're
also
here
for
you.
And
that
support
doesn't
stop
once
your
loved
one
dies,
it
continues
on.
And
that's
where
grief
support
comes
in,
is
we
get
to
kind
of
be
that
bridge
for
them
as
the
grief
journey
is
now
really
in
full
gear.
I
mean,
as
I'm
sure
you
might
relate
to,
your
grief
starts
even
before
your
loved
one
dies.
Yes,
like
you're
grieving
along
the
way,
and
so
for
our
support
to
just
stop
after
your
loved
one
dies
doesn't
make
sense
because
the
grief
is
continuing
on
after
that,
you
know.
SPEAKER_02
8:10
Yeah,
it
really
is.
Grief Versus Traditional Therapy
SPEAKER_02
8:12
And
so
how
how
is
it
how
is
grief
counseling
different
from
other
types
of
counseling?
SPEAKER_01
8:18
Yeah,
I
I
thank
you
for
asking
that
because
as
we
know,
our
mental
health
intertwines
in
so
many
parts
of
our
life,
right?
It's
intertwined
into
who
we
are
as
a
person.
Um,
but
grief
has
its
own
unique
challenges
that
we
have
to
face.
And
so
a
lot
of
clients
that
we
work
with
actually
are
working
with
their
own,
you
know,
mental
health
therapists
that
maybe
they've
been
seeing
for
years
to
really
help
manage
any
mental
health
challenges
they're
facing,
um,
how
to
just
process
and
cope
with
stressors
in
general.
But
grief
comes
in
and
kind
of
throws
that
all
up
in
the
air
sometimes.
And
so
people
are
often
left
feeling
like,
I
thought
I
understood
how
to
what
self-care
was,
I
thought
I
knew
what
coping
was,
but
I
don't
know
now
because
grief
has
thrown
everything
in
the
air.
Um,
so
what
grief
counseling
gets
to
do
is
be
that
private
space
for
you
to
sit
in
the
grief
and
actually
allow
yourself
to
be
present
in
it.
I
think
that
a
lot
of
times
our
instinct
might
be
don't
look
at
it
because
it
feels
so
painful.
And
so
we
have
this
like
fear
to
look
at
it
of
like
if
I
peel
it
back
a
little
bit,
am
I
is
it
gonna
unravel?
Am
I
never
gonna
be
able
to
close
it
back
up?
Um,
so
we
get
to
move
at
the
pace
that
you
need
and
allow
you
to
actually
be
in
it,
um,
while
understanding
it's
not
something
you
can
fix,
as
we
said,
right?
A
goal
of
grief
counseling
is
not
to
get
over
the
grief,
it's
not
to
move
on
from
the
grief,
it's
not
to
get
over
the
loss.
The
goal
of
grief
counseling
is
for
you
to
find
a
way
to
hold
on
to
that
bond
with
your
loved
one
now.
And
like
that's
the
work.
How
do
you
hold
on
to
that
connection
to
them
in
a
comforting
way
and
not
as
much
of
a
painful
way?
SPEAKER_02
10:11
I
would
agree
with
that.
Yeah,
it
helps
find
find
those
different
ways
where
you
can
honor
that
person,
find
comfort,
you
know,
especially
and
not
just
at
the
milestone.
Sometimes
it's
just
regular
days
when
you're
like,
I
really
wish
I
could
talk
to
my
mom
or
my,
you
know,
my
loved
one
right
now.
They
could
really
help
me,
you
know,
um,
with
that.
SPEAKER_01
10:31
The
quiet
moments,
right?
We
kind
of
can
predict
when
those
big
moments
are
gonna
wipe
us
off
our
feet,
like
birthdays
or
you
know,
the
year
mark
after
the
loved
one
has
died,
or
a
holiday.
Um,
we
kind
of
brace
ourselves,
but
it's
those
smaller
moments
that
you're
you're
mentioning
that
we
were
not
always
braced
for,
you
know,
the
scent
of
their
cologne
randomly,
or
a
song
comes
on
the
radio
that
you
haven't
heard
in
years,
but
now
is
playing
and
it
brings
you
back
to
a
memory
with
your
loved
one.
Those
are
the
moments
that
that
wipe
us
off
our
feet.
SPEAKER_02
11:03
I
I
always
tell
the
story.
My
mom
always
loved
the
marshmallow
peeps.
Okay.
And
so
actually,
that
was
the
last
food
that
she
ate
was
a
peep.
And
so
she
she
passed
in
January.
And
so
that
first
Easter,
you
know,
the
peeps
come
out,
and
literally
I
had
to
go
like
as
soon
as
I
saw
them
in
the
store,
I
like
wanted
to
cry,
and
I
was
like,
whoop,
gotta
go
the
other
way.
Now
when
I
see
them,
I
find
comfort.
But
that
first
few
months
when
I
saw
them,
I
was
like,
Oh,
I'm
gonna
start
crying
in
the
grocery
store
for
it.
Yeah,
yeah.
SPEAKER_01
11:34
I
appreciate
you
saying
that
because
I
think
early
in
grieve,
we
sometimes
get
caught
in
this
black
or
white,
all
or
nothing
thinking.
So,
like
I
know
for
me,
when
after
my
Papu
had
died,
um,
we
danced
at
my
wedding
to
Moon
River,
which
is
not
a
very
popular
song,
right?
Like
it's
you
don't
hear
it
nowadays.
I'll
tell
you
after
he
died,
I
must
have
heard
that
on
the
radio
about
five
or
six
different
times
within
that
first
week.
And
I
was
like,
enough,
I
can't.
And
I
had
this
fear
of
like,
am
I
never
gonna
be
able
to
hear
that
song
again
without
falling
apart?
And
prior
to
the
loss,
I
had
such
comforting
memories
with
that
song,
and
now
all
of
a
sudden
it
was
painful,
and
it
was
very
confusing
to
try
and
rationalize
how
this
song
could
now
all
of
a
sudden
be
connected
to
pain.
Um,
but
just
like
you're
saying,
I
think
as
I
moved
through
my
grief
journey,
slowly
it
turned
into
comfort.
And
now
I
I
still
hear
that
song
and
I
still
get
tears
in
my
eyes.
But
I
think
the
emotion
behind
those
tears
is
is
what's
changed.
So
I
wonder
if
it's
the
same
with
the
pizza
for
you.
SPEAKER_02
12:39
Yeah,
yeah,
it
is.
Now
it's
like
because
I
used
to
buy
them
for
all
the
time,
you
know,
my
whole
life,
you
know.
She
always
had
it,
and
I
was
like,
oh
mom,
look,
there's
Halloween
ones
now,
there's
Christmas
ones,
and
we'd
like,
oh
let's
try
this
flavor,
you
know.
So
uh
yeah.
Uh
so
yeah,
now
it
now
it's
coming.
Or
did
she
only
like
them
fresh?
Oh,
she'd
eat
them
all
all
the
time.
She
didn't
care.
She
she
loved
them.
Yeah,
she
she
did.
And
we'd
get
the
different
colors
and
all
that.
Yeah,
it
was
like,
um,
yeah,
she
loved
them.
I
I
want
to
talk
about.
Grief Myths That Add Pressure
SPEAKER_02
13:09
Can
we
talk
about
the
myths
of
grief?
Because
I
think
that's
really
important.
And
I
learned
this
through
grief
counseling.
I
did
not
know
this.
SPEAKER_01
13:16
So
okay,
yeah,
there's
so
many
of
them
too.
And
and
I
didn't
really
know
how
much
I
bought
into
these
myths
myself
until
I
started
doing
this
work.
And
then
I
really
realized
like
this
is
not
what
I
thought
grief
was.
Um,
so
there's
a
few
that
I'd
love
to
maybe
talk
with
you
about,
and
then
I'd
love
to
hear
any
other
ones
that
you've
found
kind
of
along
the
way.
One
that
really
sticks
out
to
me
is
this
idea
that
grief
is
linear
and
has
to
follow
like
a
set-step
guideline.
And
people
will
often
come
to
counseling
asking
for
just
that.
Like,
tell
me
what
to
do,
tell
me
the
steps
I
need
to
do
to
get
over
this
grief.
And
that's
whether
they'll
often
mention
Kubla
Ross,
which
I'm
sure
everyone
has
heard
of
Kubla
Ross's
five
stages
of
grief,
right?
Denial,
anger,
bargaining,
depression,
and
that
the
end
is
acceptance.
I've
yet
to
meet
a
single
griever
who
has
followed
that
in
a
linear
pattern
and
never
bounced
back
to
an
emotion.
Like
grief
just
does
not
move
in
a
singular
path
in
a
way
that
you
can
check
it
off
and
then
never
look
back
at
it
again.
And
I
think
the
danger
with
that
myth
is
because
we're
human,
we're
going
to
be
bouncing
around.
And
so
when
we
inevitably
do
that,
it
makes
us
question
am
I
doing
this
wrong?
Like,
is
there
something
wrong
with
me
that
I'm
still
feeling
moments
of
anger?
That
every
so
often
I
do
have
these
moments
where
it
doesn't
feel
real
and
I'm
feeling
denial.
And
we
are
so
guilty
of
putting
that
pressure
on
ourselves
to
follow
this
path.
Um,
but
the
truth
is
that
grief
really
does
make
us
bounce
all
around.
Sometimes
even
within
the
same
hour,
we've
bounced
around
to
different
emotions.
Um,
if
anyone
ever
attends
our
grief
workshop,
the
second
night
we
compare
the
grief
journey
to
a
roller
coaster,
right?
It's
this
idea
of
like
someone
put
you
on
the
roller
coaster,
put
the
shoulder
straps
on,
even
though
you
didn't
buy
the
ticket,
and
they
sent
you
off.
And
so
you
have
no
idea
when
the
next
turn
is
coming,
you
have
no
idea
when
that
next
drop
is
gonna
happen,
and
all
you
can
do
is
just
hold
on
tight
and
hope
that
you'll
get
through
that
next
drop.
And
I
think
that's
true
with
grief.
But
the
more
that
we
can
dispel
that
myth
that
it
needs
to
be
linear,
I
think
people
will
have
more
compassion
to
recognize
I
get
to
do
this
in
the
way
that
I
need
to,
and
that
there
isn't
a
timeline
I
have
to
follow.
Um,
that
can
be
hard
for
people
though,
I
think,
because
yeah,
they
want
to
know
what
to
do.
Um,
but
I
think
it
also
gives
us
that
freedom,
you
know.
SPEAKER_02
15:58
Yeah,
and
now
I
find
myself
because
I
and
I
learned
this
at
the
grave,
one
of
the
grave
workshops
about,
you
know,
Elizabeth
Kubler
Ross
wrote
wrote
those
about
the
people
who
are
who
are
terminally
ill.
Those
are
the
stages
they
go
through.
So
now,
like
I
even
find
myself
if
I'm
watching
TV
or
a
movie
and
they
they
go,
oh,
the
stages
of
grief.
I'm
like,
no,
that's
not
right.
Yeah,
I
did
it
to
myself,
I'm
like,
no.
And
but
it
made
perfect
sense
that
when
when
you
know
you
said
that
at
the
grief
workshop,
I
was
like,
oh
yeah,
that
is
what
she
wrote
about.
She
wrote
about
the
terminal
illness,
and
somehow
it
got
into
this
is
how
grief
works,
and
it
and
it
doesn't.
SPEAKER_01
16:34
Yeah.
It's
I
do
think
Kubler
did
a
Kubler
also
did
a
phenomenal
job
at
identifying
emotions
that
are
part
of
it,
though.
Because
I
do
think
those
are
very
much
of
integrated
into
the
grief
journey.
Um,
I
just
think
we
need
to
maybe
adjust
our
view
of
it
as
recognizing
it
doesn't
have
to
be
step
A,
then
step
B,
then
step
C.
It
can
go
whichever
way
it
needs
to.
SPEAKER_02
16:56
Yeah.
And
like
you
said,
sometimes
you
feel
it
all
all
of
them
within
five
minutes
of
each
other,
depending
on
what's
going
on,
you
know,
and
that
that's
okay
to
accept
that,
yeah,
that's
how
I
feel
today
about
it.
And
that
it
it
it
is,
it
affects
everything,
you
know,
your
your
physical
body,
not
just
your
mental.
You
know,
we
we
tend
to
separate
that
with
that.
SPEAKER_01
17:18
That's
exactly
what
I
was
just
gonna
mention
too.
It's
another
myth,
is
that
it
the
myth
sometimes
is
it
only
affects
the
way
we
feel.
And
in
that,
that
the
only
feeling
we
have
in
grief
is
sadness.
And
so,
yes,
sadness
is
a
big
part
of
the
grief
journey
and
feeling
that
pain,
but
it
is
not
the
only
emotion
that
we
feel
in
pain
or
feel
in
grief,
excuse
me.
There
are
so
many
different
emotions
that
we
experience.
And
what's
interesting
is
sometimes
very
early
in
our
grief,
because
we're
feeling
so
much
pain,
all
we're
doing
is
craving
for
a
moment
where
it
doesn't
feel
this
painful,
where
it
doesn't
feel
like
it's
going
to
encompass
us.
And
then
as
we're
moving
through
our
grief
journey,
we
do
have
a
moment
where
it
doesn't
feel
as
overwhelming,
or
dare
I
say,
we
have
a
moment
of
joy.
Uh-oh.
Yeah.
And
then
we're
met
with
guilt,
right?
This
like
feeling
of
I'm
not
allowed
to
feel
guilt
or
feel
happiness.
Joy
does
not
belong
in
this
grief
journey.
Are
people
gonna
think
that
I've
gotten
over
my
loss?
Is
my
loved
one
going
to
think
I
no
longer
miss
them?
Um,
and
so
the
reality
though
is
that
joy
is
absolutely
a
part
of
grief,
and
it's
necessary,
I
think,
for
grief
in
order
to
keep
our
stamina
going
through
the
journey.
We
have
to
give
ourselves
that
permission
to
feel
joy
at
some
point.
SPEAKER_02
18:38
Oh,
yeah,
yeah,
you
you
do.
And
sometimes
it's,
you
know,
you
think
about
a
story
about
your
loved
one
and
you
start
laughing,
you
know,
because
you're
like,
oh
my
god,
yeah,
they
did
do
that,
or
oh
yeah,
they
did
say
that,
you
know,
and
to
find
comfort
in
that.
Um,
but
yeah,
you
do
you
have
that
conflicting
feeling
of,
oh,
I
I
shouldn't
be
happy
right
now
in
this
moment,
you
know.
But
it
it's
okay
to
feel
that
way.
SPEAKER_01
19:01
Yeah.
It's
and
it's
also
okay
if
right
now
it's
hard
for
you
to
connect
to
joy,
too.
Like
that's
really
a
a
phrase
that
I
keep
in
mind,
even
through
my
own
grief
journey,
is
this
idea
of
right
now.
You
know,
if
right
now
it's
hard
to
connect
to
joy,
that's
okay.
That's
just
where
you're
at
in
your
grief
journey
right
now.
And
if
right
now
you
are
able
to
chuckle
because
you
remember
a
silly
thing
that
your
loved
one
did,
that's
okay
too.
That
you
don't
have
to
fit
into
one
of
these
two
boxes.
Um,
but
I
don't
think
you
really
understand
that
fully
until
you
go
through
that
grief
journey
itself,
which
is
kind
of
leads
into
that
third
myth
I
wanted
to
talk
about,
which
is
this
idea
that
grief
kind
of
goes
away
on
its
own.
That
like
you
know,
you
just
need
time,
right?
How
many
times
have
I
even
said
that
to
someone
before
I
went
through
grief?
That
now
I
look
back
and
I
think,
how
has
no
one
smacked
me?
I've
said
that
to
someone.
Yeah.
Um,
because
grief
doesn't
just
heal
on
its
own,
it
doesn't
just
go
away.
Well,
what
what
I
do
think
happens
with
time
though
is
that
it
gives
us
those
opportunities
to
learn
what's
helpful
in
our
journey
and
learn
what's
not
helpful.
And
we're
constantly
just
evolving
what
our
coping
skills
are
and
what
our
coping
toolbox
needs
to
have
in
it.
And
that's
what
time
I
think
gives
you
that
that
opportunity
to
do
that.
SPEAKER_02
20:27
I
would
agree
with
that.
Yeah,
it
gives
you
that
you
figure
out
what
will
work
for
you
or
what's
okay
for
this
or
that,
or
like
I
learned
um
through
my
grief
counseling
that
like
it
was
okay
if
I
just
needed
to
zone
out
that
day
and
I
was
just
playing
games
on
my
iPad
or
I
was
finding
comfort
watching
Netflix
or
uh,
you
know,
and
then
I
found
some
movies.
I
I
found
myself
finding
movies
or
shows
that
kind
of
had
grief
in
there
in
the
story,
not
even
intentionally,
but
then
I
found
comfort
in
those.
You
know,
you
know,
that's
where
I
found
it,
you
know,
and
that
and
that
was
okay
if
that's
what
I
did
that
night.
You
know,
I
I
didn't
have
to
always
be
doing
something.
Um
and
and
give
yourself
permission
for
it.
SPEAKER_01
21:12
Yeah,
permission
to
pause,
permission
to
to
acknowledge
sometimes
not
doing
something
is
doing
something.
Like
that
that
let
the
absence
of
doing
something
can
actually
be
feeding
your
your
grief
needs
in
that
moment,
and
that's
acceptable
and
encouraged,
actually.
We
can't,
I
think
sometimes
our
instinct
is
to
keep
going
24
hours
a
day,
like
just
to
stay
busy,
because
the
busier
I
am,
the
less
opportunity
grief
has
to
knock
on
the
door.
Um,
but
the
truth
is
at
some
point
you
have
to
put
your
head
on
that
pillow,
and
grief
is
gonna
find
a
way.
You
know,
grief
demands
to
be
feel,
grief
demands
to
be
experienced.
So
the
more
we
can
lean
into
it
and
honor
it,
the
more
we're
honoring
our
loved
one
and
honoring
the
bond.
That
we
have
with
that
loved
one.
SPEAKER_02
22:03
Yeah,
I
yeah,
that's
definitely
true.
And
then
it's
sometimes
it's
a
hard
lesson
to
learn
that
that
it's
okay
to
pause.
But
I
I
found
it
very
helpful
when
I'm
able
to
be
like,
okay,
I
I
know
I
need
this.
Like
I
I
just
need
to
do
this
with
it.
Finding Light And Staying Connected
SPEAKER_02
22:19
On
the
Lightways
website,
it
says
through
darkness
wing
we
bring
light.
So
how
does
someone
find
the
light
when
they're
grieving?
SPEAKER_01
22:30
It's
a
really
tricky
question
because
as
I
said,
I
think
we're
each
gonna
do
it
differently.
Right?
Two
people
grieving
the
same
person
are
going
to
find
their
light
in
different
ways.
Um,
but
the
one
thing
I
I
want
to
encourage
your
listeners
to
really
remember
or
reflect
on
is
that
really
your
person
is
your
light.
You
know,
that
they
are
the
light
in
your
life,
they're
the
light
in
your
heart.
And
that's
really
the
goal
of
grief
of
like,
how
do
I
continue
my
bond
with
this
person
in
this
new
way?
And
so
you're
gonna
be
able
to
connect
to
light
by
finding
ways
to
connect
to
your
person.
Now,
this
can
be
really
challenging,
especially
in
the
early
parts
of
grief,
because
perhaps
you
know,
the
moment
you
close
your
eyes,
you
have
a
picture
of
them
and
immediately
just
start
crying.
So
for
me
to
ask
you
to
connect
more
to
them
might
feel
very
scary.
Um,
but
there
are
ways
through
grief,
counseling,
other
types
of
grief
support
that
you
can
really
learn
how
to
connect
to
them
in
that
comforting
way.
And
it
could
be
talking
to
them,
looking
at
pictures
of
them,
maybe
eating
their
favorite
meal,
sitting
in
the
chair
that
they
always
sat
in,
wearing
a
shirt
of
theirs.
Um,
lightways
makes
memory
bears,
or
we
can
take
your
loved
one's
articles
of
clothing
and
turn
it
into
a
bear.
So
you
have
something
physical
to
like
hold
on
to
and
hug
in
that
way.
Um,
talking
about
your
loved
one
to
other
people,
those
are
ways
that
you
can
continue
to
hold
on
to
that
light
and
find
that
connection.
Um,
and
then
on
that
note,
too,
I
think
an
important
part
is
connecting
to
other
grievers.
You
know,
through
COVID,
we
saw
so
many
challenges
in
our
world.
Um,
and
when
it
came
to
grief,
one
thing
that
we
really
saw
is
people
were
experiencing
delayed
grief
because
they
were
one
being
robbed
of
the
opportunity
to
sometimes
even
say
goodbye
to
their
loved
one
in
their
final
moments.
Yeah.
Um,
which
is
so
important
to
be
able
to
have
that
moment
to
say
goodbye.
But
then
afterwards,
they
were
being
robbed
of
the
ability
to
connect
with
other
people
and
be
around
others
who
are
also
experiencing
that
pain
that
you
are
experiencing.
So
we
always
encourage
people
in
grief
through
their
journey
to
connect
to
other
grievers.
Because
again,
so
many
people
in
your
life
are
going
to
say,
Oh,
I
know
exactly
what
you're
going
through,
but
have
no
idea
what
you're
going
through.
And
there's
something
really
profound
about
being
around
other
grievers
who
don't
just
say
they
get
it,
but
genuinely
get
what
this
experience
is
like.
SPEAKER_02
25:22
So,
what
is
the
difference?
Uh,
how
is
grief
counseling
different
than
grief
support?
SPEAKER_01
25:27
Yeah,
so
I
look
at
grief
support
as
kind
of
an
umbrella,
and
really
the
umbrella
is
protecting
our
grief
journey.
So
it's
covering
over
that
grief
journey,
all
of
those
emotions,
all
of
the
pain
that
we're
feeling.
And
grief
support
has
a
bunch
of
different
things
that
do
that.
So,
grief
support
is
really
the
ways
in
which
we
can
help
you
walk
along
that
journey.
And
so,
counseling
absolutely
is
a
part
of
grief
support.
And
I'd
love
to,
and
we
kind
of
have
already
talked
about
that,
um,
but
I
can,
you
know,
talk
more
about
it.
But
I
also
want
to
touch
on
the
other
ways
that
we
can
receive
grief
support.
So,
one
is
really
this
idea
of
connecting
with
other
grievers,
as
I
mentioned.
So,
it
might
be
attending
a
support
group.
Now,
Lightways
offers
loss-specific
support
groups
as
well
because
we
recognize
that
although
we
never
want
to
compare
grief
to
grief
because
loss
is
loss,
and
it's
not
about
one
being
harder
or
easier,
right?
Pain
is
pain.
Um,
but
I
do
think
each
type
of
loss
has
unique
challenges.
So,
you
know,
we
have
a
spousal
loss
or
partner
loss
specific
group.
We
have
a
child
loss
specific
group.
We
more
recently
started
a
parent
loss
specific
group.
So
we're
giving
people
these
opportunities
to
connect
with
each
other,
not
even
necessarily
to
share,
because
that
might
be
vulnerable
for
some
people,
but
to
at
least
be
around
others
and
hear
what's
worked
for
them,
what
hasn't
been
helpful,
or
at
the
very
least,
just
normalize
the
experience
that
they're
going
through,
right?
So
that
can
is
a
part
of
the
grief
support.
Also,
I
think
grief
support
includes
education,
like
learning
about
grief.
And
that's
what
our
grief
workshop
is
for,
is
that
it
helps
people
really
understand
what
grief
looks
like
to
again
hopefully
normalize
what
they're
going
through
so
they
understand
there's
not
something
wrong
with
me.
I'm
grieving,
and
oh,
so
that's
why
it's
hard
to
sleep
at
night.
Or
oh,
that's
why
I
feel
like
I
have
less
patience
with
people.
That's
why
I
don't
feel
like
myself
right
now.
That's
what
grief
education
can
do.
Um,
grief
support,
I
think,
also
includes
helping
you
understand
how
to
connect
to
your
loved
one.
So
for
some
people,
looking
at
pictures
might
feel
too
vulnerable,
but
maybe
what
I
can
do
is
um
eat
the
food
that
I
know
they
always
like
to
eat.
And
that's
how
I'm
gonna
find
comfort
in
connecting
to
my
loved
one.
And
then
finally,
grief
support,
I
think,
really
includes
helping
you
understand
what
your
actual
needs
are.
Like
sometimes
that
in
itself
is
difficult
to
determine
what
I
actually
need.
So
part
of
my
role
when
people
call
in
is
they'll
share
their
story
with
me,
and
then
I
have
that
conversation
of
what
do
you
think
would
be
helpful
for
you?
Right?
Do
you
think
you
might
need
more
of
that
one-on-one
space
to
really
peel
back
those
layers
of
your
grief?
Or
do
you
think
it
would
be
more
helpful
to
be
around
others
who've
also
experienced
parent
loss?
So
you
don't
feel
so
isolated
in
this
journey.
And
is
that
what
your
needs
are
right
now?
But
all
of
those
I
think
are
encompassed
under
that
grief
support
umbrella.
SPEAKER_02
28:44
And
you
know,
I
never
thought
that
I
would
be
like
somebody
that
liked
support
groups,
you
know,
but
I
I
have
been
a
part
of
the
parent
support
group
and
I
love
it.
I
look
forward
to
it
every
month.
And
it
is,
you
know,
it
isn't
about
comparing
the
grief,
but
it's
just
something
about
that
somebody
who's
lost
a
parent
understands,
you
know,
or
it
and
it's
so
like
how
the
different
stories
are
similar,
like,
oh
yeah,
I'm
going
through
this,
or
yeah,
I
have
to
go
through
probate
here,
or
oh
yeah,
this
happened,
I
have
to
clean
out,
and
it's
hard
cleaning
out
the
house,
or
those
types
of
things.
And
then
you
just
find
comfort
in
knowing
that
you're
not
alone
uh
with
it.
And
and
you
don't
have
to
talk
if
you
don't
want
to,
you
know.
SPEAKER_01
29:26
Exactly.
That's
what
I
was
just
gonna
say
at
the
so
I'm
one
of
the
facilitators
for
our
child
loss
group.
And
at
the
end
of
every
group,
I
always
have
my
little
spiel
that
I
say,
which
isn't
a
spiel,
I
genuinely
mean
it.
Um,
but
I
say,
you
know,
thank
you
to
those
of
you
who
have
shared,
because
it's
a
vulnerable
experience
to
share
your
grief
journey
and
to
be
vulnerable
and
present
in
it.
And
also
thank
you
to
those
who
have
listened.
Like
thank
you
to
those
who
have
been
present
to
others,
sharing
their
story,
because
there
is
an
important
part
of
grief
and
feeling
heard
and
feeling
seen.
And
so
that
makes
just
as
much
of
an
impact
being
present
as
an
observer
and
kind
of
taking
things
in
to
help
normalize
your
experience.
You
don't
have
to
be
someone
that
talks
the
whole
time
to
get
something
out
of
the
support
group.
SPEAKER_02
30:20
And
I
also
love,
I've
attended
a
lot
of
lightweight
events.
I
love
all
your
events
that
you
have.
Uh
I
I
do.
I
find
I
find
comfort
in
them,
and
then
you
know,
I
get
you
get
to
meet
other
people,
but
I
also
learn
a
lot
uh
for
it
and
a
lot,
a
common
theme
in
many
of
the
events
is
in
the
events
is
sharing
your
loved
one's
story.
So,
how
do
somebody
on
their
own
can
they
keep
sharing
their
loved
one's
story?
SPEAKER_01
30:44
There's
so
many
ways,
and
sometimes
you
know,
it
can
feel
vulnerable
to
share
it
out
loud,
like
that
in
itself
feels
very
scary.
So
there's
also
private
ways
that
you
can
share
your
story.
I
always
encourage
people
to
write
down
and
journal
what
their
loved
one's
story
is.
And
what's
interesting
is
if
you
have
yourself
kind
of
write
down
your
loved
one's
journey,
set
it
someplace,
and
then
maybe
go
back
to
it
a
few
months
later,
you
always
have
new
insight
that
you're
constantly
taking
out
of
your
journey.
And
so
it
would
be
interesting
to
see
how
those
journal
entries
would
change.
Um,
but
if
you
are
feeling
more
open
to
sharing
it
out
loud,
there's
lots
of
ways
that
you
can
do
that.
Um,
one
is
to
talk
to
people
who
knew
your
loved
one
and
share
stories
about
your
loved
one
and
keep
saying
their
name.
I
think
that's
such
an
important
part
of
grief
is
that
we
continue
saying
our
loved
one's
name.
And
actually,
at
groups,
the
support
group
that
I
run,
I
make
sure
to
mention
each
of
those
children's
names,
every
single
group,
because
I
think
it's
important
to
continue
saying
their
name
out
loud.
Also
sharing
stories
with
people
who
didn't
know
your
loved
one.
I
mean,
like
prime
example,
me
learning
that
your
mom
loved
those
peeps.
Like
that's
a
little
piece
that
you
get
to
share
with
someone
in
a
way
to
kind
of
keep
her
moving
in
the
world
today.
Um,
people
will
share
their
stories
in
grief
counseling.
So,
again,
if
it
feels
vulnerable,
maybe
meeting
with
the
counselor
one-on-one
where
you
can
really
go
into
the
depths
of
your
loved
one's
journey.
But
really,
any
creative
outlook
can
help
you
with
that.
So
we've
had
people
write
songs,
write
poems,
create
a
piece
of
artwork
in
their
loved
ones'
honor,
um,
create
a
post
on
Facebook
and
share
a
collage.
Um,
you
know,
we've
worked
with
people
who
have
kept
their
loved
ones'
Facebook
active
even
after
they've
died
as
a
way
to
continue
connecting
to
them.
And
I
was
working
with
someone
before
who
had
said
every
so
often
they
would
go
to
their
loved
ones'
page
and
someone
would
post
something
on
there,
you
know,
just
like,
oh,
I
was
thinking
about
you
today,
this
really
funny
thing
happened,
and
it
helped
me
learn
about
my
loved
one
from
someone
that
I
didn't
know.
Um,
so
there
are
so
many
different
ways
that
you
can
share
your
story.
But
the
important
thing
is
that
you
get
to
decide
how
you
want
to
share
your
story.
And
that's
I
think
a
really
important
aspect
for
lightways
is
that
we
never
want
someone
to
feel
pressured
to
share
if
they're
not
ready
to.
So
we're
constantly
moving
at
your
pace
to
figure
out
what
would
be
helpful
for
you.
SPEAKER_02
33:23
And
when
you
mentioned
that,
you
know,
sharing
your
story
with
somebody
who
didn't
know
your
loved
one,
and
and
I,
and
I
have,
and
when
people
have
made
comment,
not
comments,
but
like
like,
oh
um,
the
chaplain
at
Lightways
actually
did
my
mom's
service.
And
so
he
met
with
me
and
my
dad
and
you
know,
to
learn
about
her
and
stuff,
and
he
was
like,
Oh,
she
was
a
trendsetter.
And
I
was
like,
Oh,
I
guess
she
was.
Like,
you
know,
people
make
and
I
was
like,
Oh,
yeah,
I
never
thought
about
it.
Yeah,
I
guess
she
did
do
this,
or
you
know,
uh
with
that.
And
I
thought,
oh,
she'd
probably
get
a
kick
out
of
that,
you
know.
Uh
you
know,
so
what
would
you
say
to
someone
who's
a
little
apprehensive
about
maybe
sharing
their
grief
or
coming
to
grief
counseling
or
even
an
event?
SPEAKER_01
34:05
Yeah,
it's
a
normal
feeling
to
have,
right?
This,
like
I
said,
you
know,
we're
not
talking
about
rainbows
and
lollipops,
we're
not
talking
about
the
weather.
We're
asking
you
to
really
be
present
in
a
vulnerable
spot.
And
so
for
someone
who's
apprehensive,
the
first
thing
I
want
them
to
know
is
it's
okay
to
be
apprehensive.
And
also
there's
no
timeline
of
when
you
need
to
start
with
us.
We're
very
fortunate
at
Lightways
that
we
can
work
with
anyone
at
any
time
in
their
grief
journey.
So
we've
had
people
come
through
our
doors
who
experienced
a
loss
when
they
were
a
child
and
now
are
an
adult
and
are
at
a
place
now
where
they
can
really
sit
in
the
grief.
And
our
door
is
always
open.
You
know,
we
don't
have
to
do
this
at
a
certain
time.
Um,
but
if
you
are
open
to
it,
let's
move
at
your
pace
and
maybe
let's
come
up
with
a
way
for
you
to
dip
your
toes
in
the
water
at
your
readiness.
So,
for
example,
when
I'm
talking
with
someone
on
the
phone,
and
if
they
say,
Yeah,
I
just
I
don't
know
if
I'm
ready
to
do
counseling,
like
that
just
feels
very
intense
and
raw
for
me.
Then
maybe
what
we
do
is
we
talk
to
them
about
attending
our
grief
workshop,
right?
Because
it
helps
them
tap
into
the
educational
piece
of
grief
and
maybe
start
learning
about
their
grief.
So
they're
still
tending
to
it,
but
it
doesn't
feel
as
vulnerable.
Or
maybe
we
talk
about
attending
a
support
group
with
the
understanding
that
they're
not
going
to
share
anything
because
that
feels
very
vulnerable,
but
they're
going
to
come
just
to
be
an
observer
and
listen
and
be
present.
There's
no
specific
way
we
need
to
do
this.
So
let
us
work
with
you
to
determine
what
feels
okay
for
you.
And
also
if
you
try
it
out
and
you
realize
it's
not
the
time,
that's
okay.
You
can
come
back
at
any
time.
You
know,
lightways
doesn't
have
this
policy
where
once
you
leave,
you
can
never
come
back.
Like
that
door
is
always
open
and
actually
encouraged
to
come
and
go.
Um,
you
know,
when
you're
facing
new
challenges
in
your
grief.
SPEAKER_02
36:07
And
yeah,
I
like
that,
you
know,
that
people
know
that
that
they
can
come
back.
And
like
I
said,
I
I
I
love
coming
to
the
events.
Like
I
check
the
website
all
the
time
because
I
was
like,
I
I
find
comfort
in
it.
And
then
like
I've
I've
met,
you
know,
friends
now.
And
and
it's
just
like
you
just
feel
that
comfort
because
they
understand
what
you're
going
through
at
different
times
for
it.
And
this
and
all
the
events
are
so
they're
so
beautiful
and
they're
so
comforting,
you
know,
with
it.
Like
the
one
um
I
learned
so
much
about
it
was
the
one
I
I
never
say
it
properly,
it
but
in
English
it's
the
day
of
the
dead.
SPEAKER_01
36:38
Um,
the
Dia
de
Los
Muertos.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02
36:41
Um,
I
learned
so
much
about
that.
I
had
no
idea
what
the
whole
holiday
was,
you
know.
And
so
like
I
find
comfort
in
that
one.
I
just
did
the
Mother's
Day
one,
which
is
so
pretty
uh
with
that.
SPEAKER_01
36:52
So
lightweight.
I'm
starting
to
introduce
you.
It's
beautiful
on
RN
too
to
when
we
see
people
coming
to
multiple
events
because
it's
almost
like
we
get
to
see
you
as
you're
evolving
in
your
grief
journey
too.
Um,
and
so
you
know,
I
feel
like
we
built
these
relationships
with
you
as
well
in
terms
of
being
that
support
person
for
you.
Um,
so
we're
always
grateful
when
we
see
people
come
back.
SPEAKER_02
37:15
Yeah,
I
could
see
that.
Yeah,
it
yeah,
we
feel
like
we
get
to
know
you
too
for
it.
Yeah.
So
I
mean,
lightways
is
in
the
Joliet
area,
obviously.
How To Find Local Resources
SPEAKER_02
37:24
So,
how
can
someone
find
grief
counseling
or
grief
support
resources
in
their
area?
What
would
be
the
easiest
way
for
them?
SPEAKER_01
37:32
So,
in
terms
of
lightways
for
um
specific
reasons,
now
we
are
able
to
help
anyone
in
the
state
of
Illinois.
Okay.
So
anyone
who
lives
in
Illinois,
like
I
said,
your
loved
one
did
not
need
to
be
on
our
hospice
services.
So
even
community
members,
if
they've
experienced
the
death
of
someone,
we're
here
to
be
on
that
journey
with
you.
We
specifically
offer
telehealth
options.
Okay.
So
we
can
meet
with
someone
on
Zoom
or
on
telephone
and
kind
of
break
down
some
of
those
barriers
that
might
prevent
them
from
getting
to
us.
But
let's
say
you
are
out
of
Illinois,
or
let's
say
you
are
looking
for
something
more
in
person
and
just
don't
live
very
close
to
us.
I
always
encourage
people
to
go
to
nphihealth.org.
So
that
stands
for
the
National
Partnership
for
Healthcare
and
Hospice
Innovation.
I
had
to
write
it
down
because
I
was
gonna
forget.
Um,
but
they
have
a
database
source
where
you
can
actually
type
in
your
zip
code
and
find
local
hospices
in
your
area.
And
that's
always
where
I
encourage
people
to
start
is
find
a
local
hospice
in
your
area.
Because
if
anyone
knows
grief,
it's
hospice,
right?
Hospice
agencies
understand
grief
and
they
understand
the
needs.
Not
all
hospices
are
able
to
provide
grief
support
to
community
members,
but
they
at
least
can
be
a
starting
point
for
you
to
kind
of
start
reaching
out
to
people.
I
love
doing
that
for
people
though.
So
if
someone
is
looking
for
resources,
I'd
love
for
them
to
reach
out
to
me
and
I
can
be
that
person
to
kind
of
do
some
of
that
legwork
for
you,
whether
it's
going
online,
researching
places,
calling
places
for
you
to
try
and
take
away
some
of
those
steps
for
you.
I'm
more
than
happy
to
do
that
for
you
as
well.
SPEAKER_02
39:09
Well,
thank
you.
We
will
make
sure
we
put
all
this
on
the
links
to
that
um
on
on
the
website
as
well
for
it,
so
people
can
contact
us.
Hopefully
contact
you
too,
but
also
they
find
that
with
it.
And
like
I
said,
I
can
never
speak
highly
enough
of
hospice.
Everybody
from
the
time
they
came
in
from
the
first
nurse
that
admitted
my
mom
to
everybody,
everybody
was
just
so
wonderful
and
so
caring.
Uh,
it
was
just
a
wonderful
experience
during
a
very
difficult
time
before
that.
SPEAKER_01
39:39
So
it's
an
honor
on
our
end.
We
always
look
at
it
as
an
honor.
So,
and
um,
that's
what
keeps
us
driving,
you
know.
SPEAKER_02
39:47
And
so
thank
you
so
much
for
joining
us
today
for
that.
Thank
you.
So,
and
like
I
said,
we'll
put
all
the
links
for
that
so
people
can
find
it
if
they're
not
in
the
Illinois
area.
So
hopefully
you
have
enjoyed
this
episode
and
you
enjoyed
your
cup
of
tea,
your
cup
of
coffee,
or
if
you're
having
that
bad
day,
that
glass
of
wine,
or
who
knows
what
else,
right?
So,
and
join
us
for
another
edition
of
Patty's
Place.
