Category: Podcasts

Welcome And Guest Background

SPEAKER_00

0:18

Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we're gonna talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. I name I named this podcast Patty's Place in honor of my mom, Pat, who died from dementia about two years ago. I'm your host, Lisa. So hopefully grab your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or if you're having a really bad day, a glass of wine, and let's get to chatting and know that you're not alone here in all of this. So today I'm very excited. Our guest is Ben Couch. He's the creator of Eastern Economics, sorry, Eastern Ergonomics, and a longtime healthcare educator. Ben has spent 40 years studying martial arts and over 20 years leading healthcare training at the national level. He's discovered that martial arts, body mechanics, can dramatically reduce caregiver injuries while improving care for people with dementia. Welcome, Ben. I'm very excited to talk to you today.

SPEAKER_03

1:05

Thanks so much, Lisa. It's really great to be here.

SPEAKER_00

1:07

Yeah, so you hold black belts in eight styles of martial arts, including a seventh degree black belt in karate.

SPEAKER_03

1:15

I do. It's been my lifelong obsession. I have uh I still have, in a lot of ways, no idea why that has spoken to me throughout my life so much. Um, you know, I really have always been a person who really values peace and communication and compassion. And to me, it it uh it's difficult to explain to people sometimes, but this is how I express it to the world, you know, through my students, the people I I give this knowledge to, and just having an area of passion and having something I love and being able to, for whatever reason, it it happens to be martial arts and being able to show that devotion and compassion and education to the world through that medium has just been a wonderful lifelong journey for me.

SPEAKER_00

2:04

I don't think a lot of people realize that you do more than just quote unquote a workout in martial arts. They teach you so much more with the mind and and feelings and everything. It's it it encompasses so much more uh with it. I don't think a lot of people realize that.

SPEAKER_03

2:20

Absolutely. Um, you know, it's at at you know, one of our core things that we evolved through is the conflict, you know, when when you know, but back before we kind of developed all these wonderful things out of our neocortex and you know, the things that we start to lose when dementia comes into the picture, right? And and we go back in time through kind of our our evolution and we see conflict has really informed our whole development as a species and and ultimately brought us to a place where we have reason and logic and rules and these very high-functioning act you know, brain activities that allow us to now step away from conflict and have other ways of resolving things. So when we I mean, it sounds like such a big picture when I talk about it like this, but when we when we really go back in time and look at what martial arts is looking at, in a way, it's really looking at the course of human evolution through you know the the brute violence of you know, the the first caveman bashing the second caveman with a rock to get you know the the piece of meat. Um, to you know, how do we negotiate without that now? How do we understand the root of that conflict without manifesting the violence of it? That is a really fascinating thing to me about how do we live, how do we interact with other people and uh make the world better so that we don't need, you know, if we understand conflict, then we don't need violence.

The Accidental Discovery At IHOP

SPEAKER_00

3:45

That's very true. I actually uh I actually do I have a black belt in Hopketo and wonderful, yes, and I know with Hopketo a lot of it is uh the saying is be the water, not the rock. And it really does apply to dementia and caregiving because sometimes you know the the my master and stuff would say some you have to absorb your opponent's power so sometimes in order to redirect it with that. Uh so you know it it comes into play with dementia and caregiving because sometimes you do have to take step out of your feelings and then think about the person who's ill and put it onto them. So what was your aha moment when you realized martial arts body mechanics could solve a massive problem in healthcare?

SPEAKER_03

4:31

So um the first inkling I had of it was um, as a lot of these things are, a total accident. Um, you know, you couldn't plan for it, you couldn't predict it. I was sitting in IHOP and I was actually with my instructor. Um I met him, my primary teacher, um, for the last boy, since about 2009. Um he and I met at a mutual organization we were a part of, and I was so I mean, he was I'd I'd already been doing martial arts at for 25 years at that point. Um, I I met him because he was on my panel uh for my fifth degree black belt test in Taekwondo. And um he was partnered with me. He was my demonstration partner, and I could just tell that he was, you know, I I thought I knew a lot at that point, as one does after 25 years. And I got in with him and realized this guy is so far above me, he's doing things I didn't know were possible. Um, and so I went to him and said, Look, I I want to be your student. Now, this is in Texas, I live in Arizona, okay, and he turned me down. And so there's uh a bunch of background for it, but ultimately I said, I will fly out there every month, one weekend every month to work with you if you will take me as a student. And under those circumstances, he agreed. He said, I won't do it if you're here once every six months. You just can't learn that way. So I made a radical commitment, um, kind of uprooted my life because this guy had answers I've been searching for for my whole life. So here we are, getting ready to go for a full Saturday training. Uh, we went out to IHOP to get a big breakfast, and there's a gentleman standing next to me. We're waiting to be seated. I was seated, he was standing, um, and I saw his knee start to buckle as one of those things that just out of the corner of my eye, he was right next to me, and I just saw him start to go down. He was a uh senior, and I didn't think about it. I just stood up and you know, adjusted him. Um, I've you know basically took his his humorous bone, which is a real key point in jiu-jitsu because of how it ties into the rest of the chain down to the center of gravity, and I just bumped his humorous bone back into place, sat back down, and nothing, you know, he just kind of looked at me funny. Um, and in a heartbeat, without thinking about it, I used jujitsu to help somebody. And that triggered this thought, you know. But up until then, like I said, I wasn't a violent person. It's not like I was looking at this because I was a bouncer in a bar or you know, a police officer or, you know, someone who deals with violence on a regular basis. I just enjoy the body work, you know, I just love learning how the body functions like that. And, you know, it clicked off to me that this doesn't necessarily have to be just about me. This doesn't have to be about my experience and my fun entirely. You know, I love it, but what if, you know, I'm not really out there using it to restrain people and all this stuff, and I'm doing it for fun. What if I could actually, beyond teaching my students, put some good out into the world with it by looking at, you know, like you said, I've had a national uh director role in the training space and in senior living for over 20 years. Transfers are the number one injury. I mean, they've they've devastated training budgets, um, home and family caregivers, even more so because they've got zero training. Um, and there's a lot of these mechanics that just aren't out there. So um I started taking those little chunks that made a big difference, those little tips that you know you see someone who's you know, maybe smaller or maybe older, and they're just moving younger people around or heavier people very easily. And why aren't we using those mechanics for the the things that are actually causing people injury in healthcare? So that that's uh the the long story of how I how I how I made this jump.

SPEAKER_00

8:19

Well, no, it's it is very interesting because you're right. You don't caregivers don't think about how much it it take takes a toll on their body when they are taking care of their loved one. And if they're a caregiver in a senior facility, they're doing it for eight hours a day. And if they don't do it right, they are gonna be, they're gonna hurt themselves. With all the different black belts that you hold in the different martial arts discipline, is there a specific principle from those arts that kind of translate a little bit better directly to the pay safer patient transfers?

SPEAKER_03

8:52

Um several. Um, so one of them, uh you know, one of the I'll go with some of the easy ones to explain online. Um, because so many of them are tactile, you kind of have to feel it. But yeah, there's a few I think I can explain pretty easily online. So um the the first one is just a mental shift. So when we look at in any environment, whether it's in the home or whether it's in a healthcare environment, you know, you look at the the daily task list and it's overwhelming.

SPEAKER_01

9:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

9:24

You know, for a home caregiver, geez, did we get the meds done? Do we have a doctor's appointment? What are we eating today? What kind of food might we be throwing at the wall today? Um, are we in a good mood? You know, there's so much to think about in a healthcare setting. I've got to get, you know, I'm gonna use some lousy healthcare lingo, you know, I've got to get five people toileted and fed and, you know, all that, like very mechanical. How often do we go into a transfer or some really any kind of situation in our head isn't even in there because in the situation because we're already five rooms down the hall transferring, you know, the person before lunch, or we're balancing our checkbook trying to figure out how to get dad's doctor bill paid, or you know, we're and we're not pressed. So the first thing I do is I actually try to get people to be present and just say, okay, just like you know, when we start class, you know, when start a martial arts class, at least a lot of the eastern ones, you'll just you know, you do your bow in. Yes. And yes, you know, part of that is putting in your own head, I am here now and I am doing this. I have left balancing the checkbook, my coach yelling at my kids, soccer team, my dad yelling at me over medication. I've I'm leaving all that on the side and I'm just focusing here. So one thing I tell people is the transfer doesn't start when you put your hands on the person, it starts as you're walking in the room. You know, think of like, you know, I'm bowing into class. I'm you know, just that's personal, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

10:56

Well a good way to think about it. Yeah.

Posture And Stance For Stability

SPEAKER_03

10:58

Focused. And I I'm sometimes I'll tell people literally say to yourself, I'm about to do a transfer. I am transferring someone now. Because if we if we allow our minds to go, then our body's not focused in the transfer either. And that's when mistakes start to happen. You know, it's like they say uh more car accidents happen closer to home. Why? Because we're on autopilot, we're not thinking about it. I'm not thinking, okay, which turn do I have to take and paying really close attention. I'm just letting, you know, my autopilot run things. So when I'm doing, oh, I've got 17 transfers today. Well, number three may be the one I'm not paying attention to because I'm already working on number 10, and that's in my own head, and that's where injury happens. So mentally, I think there's a lot we can take from that. Physically, um, I like to look at things like balance points, posture. Um, you know, when I when I talk about posture and how that functions, you know, a lot of us now function like the leaning tower of Pisa, right? Because we have the cell phones and you know, we start life, you know, kind of hunched over. We start our transfers hunched over. And, you know, even just a small tilt of the chin, up or down, fundamentally breaks our connection with the ground. It it that that perfect posture that routes force down just like a skyscraper, dropping all that force straight down into a stable base. You know, if you think about a skyscraper and on the top floor, you built like, you know, another 500 feet off the edge, just on the top floor. Well, that's going to create a real imbalance because it's not supported by the base. So our posture affects everything, our breathing affects everything, um, and the way we stand affects everything. So another one that um I talk about a lot is what we call triangulation points in our balance. So when we stand, if you draw an equilateral triangle with our two feet as the base, the third point in that triangle, both in front of us and behind us, is the weakest point of balance, like the third leg on a stool. So a lot of caregivers will square up with their feet squared. Well, that means our weakest point when I'm trying to bring someone up from standing is the point where I'm trying to bring the person to. So I am pulling myself right over if I stand squared up with my feet. I'm falling into them already.

SPEAKER_02

13:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

13:28

Or if they get going too fast, they come into me and I'm falling backwards and I have nothing to catch me behind. If I blade my stance and put one foot in front of each in front of the other, now I've rotated my triangulation point out to the side because my hips are off to the side. So it's not in front of me any before it anymore, it's out of the equation. So that's little adjustments like that that I see even the pros telling people to stand like that. Well, if we're really looking at how we move weight, that's that that's in front of us, out in front of us, that's not a good way to do it. That's the way to do it if we're doing like a deadlift. If the weight is underneath us and we can rise straight up, but if we're pulling it in from out there somewhere, then having our feet squared, we start already being pulled over by the weight in front of us. Little little adjustments like that. It takes a second to learn, but it makes a phenomenal difference in how stable we are as we're trying to do these transfers.

SPEAKER_00

14:26

It makes a lot of sense. I didn't even think about all that because I would think the majority, and this is just based on when my mom ended up being when she wasn't quote unquote mobile anymore, they were transferring her from, you know, the hospital bed to the wheelchair and the wheelchair to the power lift, uh, power chair. You know, so those are like the majority of what you would transfer, even at home, you would be transferring with that. And yeah, when you're trying to grab them from the the chair, you know, you you do have to stand them up for a second before you move them to the other place. So what what do you I would do you think that martial arts also the mindset also can help if you're dealing with a loved one or as a caregiver in a facility, if the the patient is agitated?

SPEAKER_03

15:14

Oh, absolutely. Um, you know, and I this is where I think a lot of um sort of modern understanding comes in a lot um because when we talk, you know, essentially strictly martial culture and you know, samurai and warrior and all that, there's less emphasis on de-escalation and more emphasis on overwhelming um and and you know, sort of victory at all costs, where in a lot of again, we we talk about how we've sort of evolved out of that mindset to where we're trying to de-escalate violence now. So you look at um really what a lot of has been created by say the legal system or just you know, growing in in our understanding of human nature, we're now seeing a lot of professionals out there talking about how do we approach a violent person, or you know, even an agitated person, not necessarily even a violent person, but someone who's really agitated. And so that's something I do with my students because, you know, just from the standpoint of a martial arts teacher who is educating other people, you know, if they go out and hurt somebody, even if it was justified, they're looking at, you know, lawsuits and prosecutions and all, you know, if there's all these uh incentives to find other ways now that, you know, in the past were not so present. Um, it was a little bit more, you know, well, you got what you had coming. Now the the legalization of things has really changed the landscape of how we how we think about violence. So we've got people like Rory Miller, who's a he's a great author, talking about you know, the use of force and how we can de-escalate and find ways around it. So he's a he's an exceptional martial artist. Um, and I've read you know everything of his I can get my hands on because he was at a very high-level response in um prisons, and he had to deal with the worst of the worst, who would like they'd send him in when you know of a high-level prisoner would barricade themselves in their cell and they had to get him out. You know, he he dealt with real violence, but he also has to deal with, as a martial artist, how do we translate that for people who aren't in that kind of situation? How do we de-escalate? So I like to take those principles and bring them back to how do we just talk to people who are upset? You know, because that's on the that's on the spectrum, right? It's you know, being upset over my customer service is just a very low level, you know, you're yelling at me about that. That's a very low level version of you know violence because we all those emotions that go into that eventually build up into a violent encounter. It's just we're dealing with it before. So how can we do things like actually just you know, maybe the most powerful thing, shutting our mouths and listening? Um, letting people feel heard and validated. Oh, geez, I I understand why do you feel that way? Now that you explain it to me, man, I would feel that way too. Would you please tell me, you know, what I can do to help the situation, as opposed to going into that defensive space? Um, you know, how do we understand, you know, when we understand what ramps us up in our own levels of violence or in our own levels of agitation, how do we calm that? And a lot of times it's just having the confidence and the experience to model being calm so that the other person can realize that you're not, you know, you're not engaging in that agitation, but you're there to help them out of it. So I think martial arts is very important in that, especially if we're embodying that highest level of it in in my mind, which is eliminating the need for violence. Um, how do we make sure that uh it's uh Say noji, uh the concept of uh in Japanese sword victory while you're still in the sheath? You know, I achieve victory without every up ever unsheathing my sword. And um, how do we take that sort of highest level of martial arts intelligence and mastery and translate it into no violence at all?

SPEAKER_00

19:27

Well well, right. And I think, like you said, to think about going into the room being calm like you were entering uh one of a class or that, and to try to put yourself into that your loved one or if you're a caregiver in a facility, thinking about the patient there because maybe they're scared, maybe they don't understand what's going on, you know, like they don't know why you're touching them. You know, they're not they're not trying to attack you, they just don't understand, you know, or and and it's hard to give up that independence too. You know, that you it's hard to admit that you need that help, you know, with it to try to understand that instead of get angry at at the person uh with that as well.

SPEAKER_03

20:07

And I think that's what a lot of violence stems from is we don't understand each other. You know, we have needs and we view them as competing when most of the time they're not, um but we don't know how to talk about them. And when dementia enters the mix and communication breaks down and someone maybe doesn't have the word for bathroom anymore, you know, you you get dropped. I I kind of do a thought experiment with people, and I say, okay, imagine you get dropped all alone in a country where you don't speak the language and you don't know how to ask for help and you don't know anyone, and you have to go to the bathroom right now. Are you going to be agitated? How are you gonna express that need? Um, and it's it's worth thinking about because so much of the the dementia miscommunication, I think, is attributing behaviors to their being difficult. Well, I'm difficult when I don't have a bathroom nearby and I really need to go. Right. I'm difficult. You know, my my wife carries around, you know, a little power bar in her purse because she knows I get hangry when I don't eat. Exactly. Yeah. She just knows my, but you know, if people don't know that about me um and I don't communicate it, you know, uh it's gonna go badly. So that that communication of needs and uh especially communicating with folks and understanding at a at a deep level when people don't necessarily have the words anymore. Um, how do we interpret that foreign language that they're speaking into something that can meet the needs of of all parties?

SPEAKER_00

21:48

What would you say it if you could get every healthcare administrator to understand one thing about caregiver injuries, what would it be?

SPEAKER_03

21:57

First off, is that they're not an inevitable Part of doing business.

SPEAKER_02

22:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

22:02

And that's a lot of I I like to I like to look at unrealized assumptions. You know, that's that's something that I'm always asking myself, like, what don't I know that I don't know? Um, what am I missing that there's a perspective? There's always a perspective I'm missing, there's always a piece of information that could help me with something. And what am I assuming that I don't realize I'm assuming? So over um, I I started in healthcare in 2001. And over the the course of that time, um, working as a as a national training director for a group of, we had between 60 and 80 retirement communities um at any at any given moment. Um one of the things I've heard from risk managers all the time was, you know, these transfer injuries are killing us. You know, we're spending so much time, we're spending so much, you know, time with the state, time with workers' comp, you know, money on all of these things. And then I looked at, you know, what, so what are we doing about it? And the answer was basically nothing. Um, we we have an injury and then we go do the same training that created that injury in the first place. We haven't updated, you know, we've added things like, you know, like you were mentioning, and they're great hoyer lifts and you know, transport devices and all of these devices. But at the end of the day, you know, we're we're hoping those save us from training that doesn't work because the assumption I'm I'm reading into this a little bit just based on my experience, but it seems like the assumption is that this is inevitable. We're just going to have these things. We have brought training to its ultimate place and we're stuck with what we've got left. And I think that's an assumption we don't realize that we've made the we we there are better ways to train on this. And um it it strikes me as crazy that I'm you know, I'm looking around the field at like who are my competitors, and I'm not really finding anyone else who's looking at this differently, which just blows my mind. Um, if it's the number one cause of injury in one of the most dangerous professions in the United States, more so than coal mining, steel mills, prison guarding, you know, prison guards are safer than caregivers. Um, why are we not reconsidering this? So that's that's what I really challenge healthcare administrators with. We what we're doing isn't working, so wouldn't you like to, you know, shelve the complaints and just find a better way?

Where To Get Training And Support

SPEAKER_00

24:34

And and I know just from the personal experience witnessing the caregivers that took care of my mom, uh it is such a hard job and and they don't get paid very much for what they have to take care of and and that that yeah, it would be nice for the the administrators to look at that, you know, give them more training, even give them more training with dementia, because even on the memory care floor, not a lot of the caregivers really understood, you know, and no fault to of them, they weren't given that training, you know, to understand that an agitated person with dementia, you have to handle them a little bit better, you know. Um, and the number one thing with dementia too is that they do not like showers. I I don't know, I'm not really sure why that is. I don't know if it's because of the way the water hits their their skin or something, but that is always a fight. Uh uh with that. So I want to make sure we talk about as you said, you do this training. You have two different websites. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_03

25:40

Uh so my company website is illumined.com, E-L-U-M-N-E-D.com.

SPEAKER_02

25:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

25:46

Um, the the program that I offer is called Eastern Ergonomics.

SPEAKER_01

25:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

25:50

Um that that's one of my programs. That's the the one that deals with the ergonomics and the transfers and lifting. Um, so that one is all one word, Easternergonomics.com.

SPEAKER_00

26:00

Okay. And so I I know you're based in Arizona, but can other facilities in different states are you are you able to work with them or how does how could they get in touch with you? Just go to that website or yep, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03

26:14

Um, that site has all my contact information on it, and I'm happy to work with people, you know, anywhere. Um, I do work in person, so at least for initially. So that's one of my requirements to work with me is you've got to feel what I'm doing, and I've got to feel what you're doing because some of the changes are so subtle that unless I'm in the room with you, it's hard for me to coach or even, you know, necessarily feel because you know, some movements you're just using different muscles. It looks the same. So I do like to be in person with people. There's some things I can do online, some basics. Um, but for you know, real healthcare stuff, um, as as long as you're willing to have me in person, I'm really glad to go work with anyone anywhere.

SPEAKER_00

26:55

And then you were just mentioning too, before we uh before we started this, you have a new uh it's an online class for the home caregiver. Can we talk about that for a few minutes?

SPEAKER_03

27:07

Yeah, um, absolutely. So that's something that I'm offering. I've got a separate registration page for that. It's called unbreakyourback.com. It's one word. Um, and that's it is gonna be an online course. Um, this is my first launch of it. I'm experimenting with it. Um, it's gonna be on April 25th, and it's gonna be a two-hour class uh from 10 to noon uh Pacific time.

SPEAKER_02

27:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

27:30

Uh and it's it's kind of covering a lot of the information that we we talked about earlier, but in a lot more depth. So, how do we hold our breathing? How do we hold our posture? How do we think about our balance points and some basics of body movement that I can convey online without the touch? Um, but they're still really powerful ways to help home and family caregivers just get a little bit of an edge because um, you know, you look at even the pros who have had, you know, the what I kind of consider to be substandard training, um, at least it's some kind of training. And they have, you know, people around to reinforce and and who are aware of that. Um, you know, they're kind of looking, you know, like, oh, there's a hundred thousand dollar injury. Hey, let's stop that before it happens. Homing, home and family caregivers don't have that.

SPEAKER_01

28:17

Right.

Using Connection To Avoid Conflict

SPEAKER_03

28:18

So they're doing their best. They're doing what worked yesterday, even if it almost made them fall, or even if it almost took their back out. So there's a lot we can do for people who haven't had any training in a real short time that will will give them, you know, some information that even the pros don't have, unless they've worked with me. And um it it'll it'll really help them out. And a lot of that comes from just my my work with my own mom. Um, because my mom has Alzheimer's disease. Um, I've I've been her caregiver and um I've I've now it's different when you watch caregivers transfer someone who's your mom, and you're watching with the son's eyes. You know, you can watch the you can watch folks transfer other people all day long, but suddenly it's my mom, and you better do it right. So I'm looking real careful and I'm seeing, you know, like, oh, there's these problems, and how can how can we fix those for you know in in a different kind of setting?

SPEAKER_00

29:17

Well, my mom was she did not like being in the wheelchair. She actually would shuffle her feet with it. And when they would go to transfer her from the wheelchair to her power recliner, she I I think she just was so nervous. She would grab onto the TV and the poor caregivers, there was always two of them, and they would have to be like, no, no, no, Pat. And they would have to grab that plus try to transfer her over because she was like, she was not having that. She was like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

29:46

And now we're back to conflict, right? How do we how do we get on the same page um in a situation like that? Uh it was it was really interesting because my mom was hospitalized after a fall um earlier this year, and so she was um you know very confused. She was kind of agitated and confused and uh very tired, sleeping a lot. Um, and she just hated she was immediately going to, as soon as she would wake up, pull out the IVs and get out of the hospital bed after a fall.

SPEAKER_02

30:23

Right.

SPEAKER_03

30:24

Um, and it was interesting because it was in the hospital, you've got all these medical professionals around, and they really didn't know how to how to work with someone who had dementia.

SPEAKER_00

30:36

No, they really don't.

SPEAKER_03

30:38

You know, it's it's a very specialized thing. And it I knew I shouldn't be surprised, but that like son in me was still like, what are you people doing? Don't you know how to do so immediately, you know, the the person who was sitting with her, because she had to have someone sitting the full time um to make sure she didn't do those things, would say, you know, she'd start to sit up and get out of bed. And the person would say, No, no, Beth, you have to you have to sit down, you have to lie back down. You can't get out of bed. And how do you think that went?

SPEAKER_02

31:04

Right.

SPEAKER_03

31:05

And so I'd go over and she'd start sitting up to get out of bed, and I'd say, Oh, mom, thank you. Thank you for the hug. You wanted to give me a hug. Thank you so much. That was so nice. Would you like to lie back down now? Oh, yeah, that sounds good. Yeah. And you know, so how do we how do we reroute those conversations to where it, you know, again, I say the transfer has to start before we put hands on the person? What you're what you just described, they're getting, they're they're not setting up the transfer necessarily. I'm not trying to pick on anybody. No, no, we all know.

SPEAKER_00

31:38

I understand.

Closing And Review Request

SPEAKER_03

31:38

Yeah, you know, I've just as a broad example, right? You know, have we kind of taken those sources of agitation out of the way beforehand? Have we dealt with them? Have we figured out how do we get on this person's side so that we both have the same goal as opposed to I want you to move over there and you want to stay here and I've got to figure out how to trick you? Or how do how do I get you to want to do that too? What's you know, how how do I talk to you so that we have the same goal in mind? Um and again, that that goes back to you know, when you look at jujitsu or aikido um or hopkido, you know, I I tell my students, you know, the the person who's being thrown tells you what kind of throw they want to be tossed with. You know, it it depends on what, you know, if they push you, they want to go a certain way. If they pull, they want to go a different way. They're telling you what to do. You don't you don't try to tell them what to do, they'll tell you how they want to be thrown. You know, the person who is being transferred is going to tell us what they need. Are we listening? You know, are are we listening to what they are telling us about how they want to be transferred? Do they want to sit by the television a little longer? Are they bored with the television? Or, you know, right. Have we removed the sources of agitation before we try to do? So I think it's a a really holistic problem. Um, kind of like I think martial arts is a really holistic solution. It's a model that we can use that gives us insight into the conflict that's happening or just how to how to ease transitions like that.

SPEAKER_00

33:10

This has been very, very interesting. Uh and it's it's very enlightening too because it is in some ways it's so simple, but yet it's so important. Again, it goes back to, like you said, trying to get into that person's space, you know, try to eliminate the conflict with it, and also to take care of the caregiver, too, when you're doing these, these types of things. So we will definitely put all of your websites on here so people can check it out and hopefully get in contact with you. Sign up for your if you're a home caregiver, sign up for that because you don't want to break your back. Because if you're hurt, you can't take care of your loved ones for that. So thank you so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_03

33:52

Absolutely. It's a real pleasure. Thank you, Lisa.

SPEAKER_00

33:55

So I hope everybody has enjoyed your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, your glass of wine. And just remember, please leave us a review, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and hopefully you'll just know you are not alone. And join us for another edition of Patty's Place.

Welcome To Patty’s Place

SPEAKER_00

0:15

Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we will talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. I named this podcast Patty for my mom who passed away from dementia about two years ago. So I just want this to be a place where everyone knows they're not alone as they talk about all these different topics that come up. So grab your cup of tea, your cup of coffee, or if you're having a really bad day, a glass of wine, and let's get to our episode. So today I'm really excited. We have Dr. Katherine Brasowski. Hope I said that right.

SPEAKER_02

0:45

Close enough.

Small Habits That Actually Help

SPEAKER_00

0:45

Close enough. She is a psychotherapist with over 25 years of experience helping people navigate grief, anxiety, chronic illness, and major life changes. So thank you for joining us today here on Patty's Place. Yes. So I was looking. Yes. I was looking in what would you say? What are some small daily habits that can strengthen norm uh strengthen mental and emotional health?

SPEAKER_01

1:14

Well, um, okay, great, good good first question. Um I think it really the small habits really depend on the person, right? Because I feel like there are um, you know, sometimes people say, well, what about journaling? You know, if you just journal every night or you just do gratitude every night or those things, I feel like that might be really a great um little habit to add that might really help someone. But if someone else might be like that, just I'll stress out about it, I won't be able to to do the um, you know, do the journal, I won't be able to do it, and then it won't help for won't work for them. So certainly I think it's based on the person, but just some general ones that usually work, obviously, are you know, drinking water and those types of things and like keeping you physically healthy, um, because then mentally you can be a little more clear. Um, but also so many different ways people can just remember to stay present, just remember like different different tricks, but they may be oh, I don't know how. Sorry else to say that.

SPEAKER_00

2:22

No, no, that's okay. Yeah, I mean, I I understand what you're saying because, like, yeah, sometimes journaling helps, but then sometimes you're like, oh, that's overwhelming. Or people are like, oh, go to the gym, and you're like, okay, and sometimes that helps, and other times you're like, well, that's overwhelming. It's one more thing I have to fit into the day. So try to find maybe just a little something for even if it's a few minutes to try to help when you're going through so much.

Finding Joy During Dementia Loss

SPEAKER_01

2:45

Oh, exactly. I know I know that trying to just get away from everything um somehow, you know, trying to be alone with either with your thoughts or just with something fun, dancing to your favorite song, trying to find little moments of joy because when you're going through things, it's really sometimes hard to find happiness or little positive things because you can feel so mired down in the difficulties of life, especially with having a if you have a loved one with dementia. That's even more so. And and I don't know that this is on my that you saw this, but my father has Alzheimer's. And it has been extremely difficult. And there's not the support is interesting because I'm not his caregiver. He's I I was, but now he's in an assisted living for the last couple of years. But it's been, I feel like I have already lost him. And and there's no for people that have lost a parent, it's like then there's support or people are checking on you, or something like that. And in this case, it's like, well, just go visit him. But when I go, it's not, it's very I still miss him very much. Yes. Like I need to talk to him, I need his advice, I want to ask him something, I want to text him, and you can't do any of that. So it's just very, I think when things are heavy like that, you have to look for moments of joy, even if it's not with that person, if it's just somewhere. Try to find something positive to kind of keep you going.

SPEAKER_00

4:11

Definitely. Because yeah, with my mom, I would go see her, and yes, physically she was there, but she wasn't. Every once in a while, there would be a lucid moment where she would say something and I would know, like she would look at me and she'd say, I know this is really hard on you. And I knew that was my, you know, my mom being my mom, you know. Um, and then other times she would be like, she'd ask me about my mom, you know, because she thought I was just this nice girl that came to visit. And sometimes I would leave and I would just feel so exhausted, you know, and so sad, you know, even though I just spent the time with her. But to your point, you're right, there isn't a lot of support for people who are going through that caregiving with dementia. Because it you are losing that person as you're looking at that person. And it's it's really uh, it's such a different experience with it.

SPEAKER_01

5:06

It really is. And I feel like the things that people miss about someone when they pass aren't how they that they were physically there. It was the jokes they told, it was the things they were able to talk about, it was the looks they gave them that showed that they knew something. It was their phone call. Like they're the things they miss. They don't miss their physical body, and that is what we end up. That's pretty much the last thing that we have. And that's very, very strange.

Emotional Burnout Is Not Weakness

SPEAKER_00

5:32

It is the one thing I did learn from her with dementia is that people who have dementia are in that moment because that's all they know, you know. And so I learned being with her is I had to be in that moment with her. And sometimes I did laugh with her because it was something she said or something that happened, and that would bring me joy. Like I would be like, oh, that was a good visit. You know, we were laughing like we always did. And so that kind of did teach me that I had to be in that moment with her, even though it was hard when I laughed with it. Yes. What do you think? I I noticed you say on that, what do you mean when you say emotional burnout is not weakness? Because definitely taking care of somebody with a chronic illness or dementia definitely burns you out emotionally.

SPEAKER_01

6:24

Well, it's it is it is being burnt out emotionally, but that doesn't mean you're weak. Right. It's like when people cry and then they think they're being weak, they can be really strong and they're going through something. They just happen to be crying about it. They're still doing it. So even though you're still doing it and you may be getting depleted, you may be burnt out. It's how I don't I don't understand how that's weakness. I don't understand how else we could, you know, show up for something really, really hard and have it affect us really, really deeply and become burnout with it, then I just don't think that that's weakness. I think that we have to keep working to get the supports and the coping mechanisms in place to help us maintain and not burn out as quickly or at all. But I think that's a tall order because it's a very hard thing.

SPEAKER_00

7:16

It it really is. And I I think I know when I was going through it and even now grieving for my mom, you don't even know that you're emotionally burnt out because you're just you're in this survival mode. It's like you gotta go to work, then you, you know, you got you you go visit them, and then you're also taking care of uh their health might have changed, and now there's they're on a different medicine, or you notice a decline, and it's just like constant, or you're in the store going, well, maybe she'll eat this, you know, because she's not eating. And you I don't even think you realize that you're burnt out, you know, because you're you're going through it. And everyone will say to you, Well, you need to take care of yourself. And what would you say to a client or somebody when they feel so overwhelmed they don't even know how to take care of themselves?

SPEAKER_01

8:08

I've I feel like that when we say self-care and things like that, you know, self-care really originated from caregiving professions where they said, you know, you will burn out if you do not take care of yourself because you can't just give all day of yourself and take on everybody's pain without, you know, taking care of yourself also. So the way I conceptualize self-care though, is that you're basically you create a life that can withstand difficulty, right? So it doesn't mean go get a massage when you're super stressed. It means you have a routine that you like, you surround yourself with people that you like that make you feel good, you have activities that fill you up, you do all of these things as like um the scaffolding for your life that then when you are having to deal with things and having to take things that or do things that really deplete you um and are really emotionally hard, then you have that like you already have that reserve kind of to keep you from getting so burnt out. I know that's easier said than done, and I know for caregivers especially, um, it felt like sometimes there was no, you know, I would go to work and then I would come home, and this was while he was, you know, kind of more in the uh early to mid stages. So he would just wait for me to get home, and you know, he's like he'd ask my son, like, where's your mother? When's your mother gonna be home? And I'd come home and then he would just want to talk to me and talk, you know, talk about the same stuff and just talk. And I was like, oh, like I just but yeah, you know, of course now I miss that, but I do feel like at those times you you you won't have it, you won't have the reserve for those types of situations if you don't also like on your way home, you schedule a break to go for 15 minutes to go sit at the park, or you just do something that kind of orients you to your life right now, because life is bad and good all the time. It just keeps they're changing. So we can't stay stuck too much in a bad moment um or in a good moment because it's all we just kind of move through it.

SPEAKER_00

10:19

And and I also think with that, I I think there's a big uh caregiver's guilt because you feel guilty when you're taking care of yourself, you know, like you said, like taking those extra 15 minutes, maybe on a really beautiful day that you go sit in the park or you just go walk around a store or even asking for help, like saying, Hey, can you come sit here? You know, I need to go to the I need to go to the doctor, or I need to go get my hair done, or you just want to go shopping by yourself, you know. I how are there some strategies or how can people can maybe ease their guilt because you do, you just feel so guilty that you should give 100% to your loved one and then you do neglect yourself.

SPEAKER_01

11:02

Yes, I I agree with that. And I think guilt, you know, guilt is a feeling, but that feeling comes from thoughts, right? So if we think while we're out walking around the store looking at stuff, if we start thinking, you know, I really shouldn't be here right now, I really should be there with with them, you know. I should, I how how could I possibly do this? You know, they need me. Or what kind of selfish person are you walking around this store? If you have those thoughts, you're gonna feel guilty, right? Right. The feeling doesn't just come by itself, it came because you had certain thoughts. Now, if you thought, you know, I'm at you're at the store and you start thinking, you know, I could be with them right now, but I did kind of want a little bit of a break, and there's some pretty clothes here that I really want to try on, and then I can like, you know, I'll feel good when I get home. If you think that, and that's no more true or untrue than the other thought, right? Right. So if you think that though, how are you gonna feel? You're not gonna feel guilty, you're gonna feel like, oh yeah, I mean, this is kind of fun, good use of my time, but and so it the the thoughts very, very much dictate those feelings. So that's your entry point. So when people say I just have all so much guilt, well, why? What thoughts are making you feel guilty?

What People Get Wrong About Therapy

SPEAKER_00

12:21

That's a good point. I think we forget that that the thoughts and the feelings are connected with that. And I know sometimes, you know, people might you may need to talk to somebody professionally, a third person, because sometimes talking with family or friends can be overwhelming because you have all these different opinions and and everything. So what would you say are the most common misconceptions about the therapy process if someone decides, you know, hey, I just need to take this time for me?

SPEAKER_01

12:53

Oh, there's many, many misconceptions. And as when I first started in private practice um uh 14 years ago, I and that wasn't even that long ago, but when I started in private practice, it was still very much like people like, you know, don't tell anyone I'm going to therapy, or you know, they were very it was still, it was getting there, but it still wasn't like anybody would talk about it with everyone. Now we know it has gotten, it's not perfect. There's still lots of people that have, you know, there's still lots of stigma about it, but it's much better. There's now people talking, what about your therapist? And this is what I did in therapy. So I thought I think that's positive to a certain degree. Where I don't think it's positive is that it's becoming, you know, so so much in our vernacular now, therapy and therapeutic concepts, that I feel like not people aren't really sure what it is. They just hear, oh, therapy. I guess I'll go to therapy, and they don't know what it is. And then if you don't really know what it is, you can't even make sure you're finding the right person for you. So you might be like, well, this is therapy. I have a therapist, I guess this is it. And that's not true because therapy, the success of therapy, so studies have shown that the modality that's used is important, of course. But the most important factor in if the therapeutic process or if therapy is beneficial or not, is the relationship between the therapist and the client. And so sometimes people don't click, right? Or sometimes it's just not a good fit. And it's like that in the regular world, and it's like that for finding a therapist too. So if you don't click with them, you should go find someone that you do and also make sure they have an expertise in the area you're going for. So going to therapy after the loss of a parent, right? Which is that's and I work in grief and loss also, so that's something that I see. Going to therapy for that is very different than going to therapy for um, you know, a life like a long history of trauma. Those are those are two different things. And they're two different therapists. So I mean, that therapist may have um, one therapist may have training in both, right? But it's two different types of ways to look at it. So finding a therapist, I think the biggest misconception is that you can just find a therapist. If it doesn't work, it's because therapy doesn't work, or because therapy's not right for you, or I've heard people say therapy doesn't work for me. I believe that therapy can work for anyone, it can help anyone achieve what they are trying to achieve or fix or you know, get closer towards in their life if they find the right person. I do believe that.

SPEAKER_00

15:32

I agree with that. And in two things uh that I made me think was one, when you're going through even caregiving, or when you lose your parent or your loved one, it can bring up a lot of other issues that you didn't even think about and you wonder why do I feel this way? And you make those connections, you know. So, and the other one to your point is that therapy works. A, yes, I agree, you have to have the right therapist, but then also you have to use the tools that a therapist gives you, and you also have to participate. Like you can't just tell the therapist what you think they want to hear, you have to be honest.

SPEAKER_01

16:13

That's absolutely true. And you know what? Likewise, the therapist also, I always say if you don't get mad at your therapist, at least once they're not doing their job. And it's not it is not because we want to be, you know, where make people mad at us. But if you're not challenged at all, then you know, I'm not sure. I I think that's the other thing, the other misconception I see is that like the main point of therapy is to have a safe place to go, like vent. And I mean, that's true, that's one of the things you might do, but if you're venting, and studies have have researched this as well, that if you're just venting and your therapist is just like, yeah, yeah, you're right, yeah, that person is a jerk or whatever, and you're they're getting more and more rooted in what they're thinking and believing, and that might not be accurate or helpful or anything. We might need be needing to, well, what was your role in that? You know, we might need to, and they might not like when you ask that question because I don't have a role in that, right? That was all the other person. I'm not, I'm just asking if you think that you do. So it's like the challenging and the the way you really tell if therapy is working isn't how you feel right after the session. It's are is your life getting any better or any more where you want it to be? That's that's how you tell. Is therapy working outside of therapy? That's how you tell.

SPEAKER_00

17:36

Well, that's a good point. Yeah, because that maybe when you leave, you might not feel that great because maybe you touched upon so many things, but then later on and you think about it or use the tools, you might be like, oh, wait, I am coping better with this, with it, you know. Absolutely because definitely when you are in the caregiving mode or even when you're grieving, you do have those ups and downs. Well, in any part of your life, you will, but it if you are especially yeah, when you're able to use the tools, they do help with it, even if it's for a few seconds, like you said, to change your thought and be like, it's okay for me to be out here for an hour. You know, it's all right to be doing this for myself, you know, for that. Do you think there are any like what strategies can help people build emotional resilience during a major life transition?

SPEAKER_01

18:29

I would say the looking at your distorted thinking, which again, and and these are um cognitive behavioral therapy concepts, but looking at the distorted thinking, like, am I uh doing all or nothing? Like either I'm the best daughter or I'm the worst daughter, right? Right. If you're doing that kind of thinking, then what do you think what category are you gonna put yourself in if you go to the store instead of going home with your with your parent? You're gonna be the worst daughter, right? And that kind of thinking is not helpful because there's a lot of other things besides just best and worst daughter, right? And then how are you gonna feel? You're gonna feel guilty. But if so, I think a lot of the the ways to kind of cope with difficult situations is to look at are there things that I'm doing with the way that I am thinking about things that is really putting me um in a worse situation. But now there are also things that I feel like are not distorted thoughts, they just are hard. They're just hard things. So if your parent is is is has dementia, or if they're or if they've or they're passing away, or they have passed away, there's no, well, why don't you think about it differently because you're making yourself sad thinking about that they died? Yeah, because it is sad and you're gonna be sad. Right. There's no look at it differently. So in that case, there's um acceptance and commitment therapy act, and that one is what I use a lot with people because that is basically the idea is that life isn't happy all the time. People aren't meant to be happy all the time. And the idea is to live a full life, because if you live a full life, you're gonna have both sides. If you don't have a good relationship with your parent, you're not gonna be sad if anything happens to them. But if you do, or if you have a relationship with your parent, their your parent, you're you're going to experience loss. So that if you get the your dream job, you could also lose your dream job. Like there's there's if you don't get any job, you're not gonna have to worry about losing it. So great. But it's like if you are living a full life, you will experience the entire range of human emotions. So the idea of kind of living through all of the things. If you're sad, feel the sadness. Try to still focus on your values, focus on what you want for your life, but don't try to say, okay, I'm not gonna be sad about that. I'm just gonna be happy. Because that's that's not really how things work.

SPEAKER_00

20:48

I would agree with that. I think people have a hard time just being in that moment and feeling what they feel, and to be able to say, yes, I feel sad right now, you know, like whether it's because you're going through caregiving or because you did lose somebody or or whatever the situation is, to be able to say, I'm sad. Because I think it's human nature that we want to fix that for a person and be like, oh, well, you know, they lived a full life or they're not suffering anymore. And you're like, I know that, but I'm still sad. You know, and I think it's hard for people to be able to say it's okay to be sad if that's what you need to feel, you know.

Grief Waves And Anticipatory Grief

SPEAKER_01

21:27

And it is sad, right? It is sad. So us not being sad about it. Now, there's being sad, thinking about it, crying, being sad, you know, having a bad morning, having a bad afternoon, fine. Of course, if it's going where you're not getting any enjoyment in life at all for weeks at a time, you know, then it might be time to consider, you know, more frequent therapy, um, you know, that focuses more a little bit more on maybe depression or something like that, you know, maybe maybe medication, maybe. Maybe, but I mean, for the most part, a lot of things are going to, you know, the next day you might be not feeling as bad. I mean, you've heard the waves analogy. Yeah. Yes. So if you think about grief as kind of just coming in and out, when it goes back out, you have some time where you can probably enjoy something for once or feel okay, but it's gonna come back. And when it comes back, you know it's gonna go back out again. It's just hard to wrap your head around when you're going through it.

SPEAKER_00

22:27

It is, especially um when you are caregiving for somebody in with dementia that that you do, you feel those waves where some days it's very, very heavy, other days it's not as much, you know. And I think uh there's that anticipatory grief with it. And I also think, especially caregiving with dementia, I think it the caregiver has a hard time if the person doesn't remember them. Because like my mom didn't remember who I was. Um, and obviously it did hurt, you know, but at a certain point, I I didn't focus on it anymore. You know, she she I she didn't remember who I was, she didn't remember who my dad was. But deep down inside, somewhere in there, she knew somehow we were connected, somehow she trusted us because she was always happy to see us and everything. But I know there are some care uh caregivers for uh dementia that they just can't get past the fact that their loved one doesn't remember them.

SPEAKER_01

23:30

You know, I mean it's it's hard, it's a sad thing, and that's when you try to get your own support for that. But I think remembering that it's obviously it's not personal, there's nothing you could have done differently. It's like not like if you were a better daughter, she would have remembered you're not gonna they're not going to. I mean, I I know I everybody tells me not to, and I try not to, but every once in a while I'll ask my dad, like, and and I think once once I phrased it like, Dad, do you know who I am? So I gave him a clue already, and then he said, He said, Yes, you're my daughter. And I was like, Oh, I was like, which one? And then he's like, I don't know that. And then I was like, Oh, and I was I said, That's why you don't ask. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00

24:14

You don't ask.

Why A Professional Helps More

SPEAKER_01

24:15

And then he asked me how many he had. So I was like, so close. But I think that it is just, you know, that it's not personal, you're just in a sad thing. So trying not to, um, trying not to take that personally and and just know if you're having a hard time one day with the fact that they don't know who you are, maybe that's just a day you're gonna have a hard time with it. But and I think, and I think that's also the reason why professional can be helpful because you're right. Back to your point about talking to friends and family, that's great, but they are they just have an investment in you and how you behave or think that a therapist doesn't. Because I don't, I'm not with you on a day-to-day basis. You know, I'm not in your house. I'm not, I don't have all these years of baggage, and and you know, well, if you would have just done this when I told you to, you wouldn't be in this situation. I mean, we don't have any of that. Right. So we can just focus on what you need and how to figure out what's best for you.

SPEAKER_00

25:12

Yeah, yeah. And it is hard because you get so many different, different opinions, different, you know, in your head, and then you're thinking about what you need to do next. And sometimes you just feel overwhelmed that sometimes I would be, I'd be like, I don't want to talk to anybody right now. Like, I just let me just put Netflix on and I'm gonna just forget what's going on, you know, because it's like it's just too much for it.

SPEAKER_01

25:34

Uh yes, and it I feel like at the end of the day, that it's not that a lot of people are really offering coping mechanisms or support that is like I mean, I think people do offer that, but it is hard to get that support that is tailored just to you because it probably, you know, they they somebody might not suggest that you go on a vacation because they might not want you to go on a vacation, because then that means they might have to step up. Exactly. That's not a that's not for you. That's like, oh no, a vacation, that's a bad idea right now. Because you know, you'd feel guilty if you went on vacation. Exactly. But I'm I mean, so it gets a little bit tricky.

Speak Easy And Feeling Safe

SPEAKER_00

26:15

Yeah, yeah, it does. You have so many, when you're a caregiver, there are so many different levels, so many different people that you're trying to manage that it does just become overwhelming with that. Um, I want to talk about your website for a few minutes. I I love the saying on your website doesn't everyone need a place to speak easy. I just love that.

SPEAKER_01

26:37

Thank you, thank you. Yes, that's so the name of our therapy practice is Speak Easy. Um, and it is play on words. Obviously, we do not have any, you know, alcohol here. Once in a while in the break room fridge for if we're here super late. Well, yeah, yeah. Not in general. Um so yes, thank you, thank you. It's so funny because when I was changing from a um solo practice into a group uh in 2022, I uh was like, well, I need a name, I need a name. And so my kids were there and they were like late teens at the time. And my uh my son said, Well, he's like, you know, we're throwing around names, and he's like, How about speakeasy? Like as a joke. And I was like, Oh yeah, funny. And then I was like, wait, wait a second. And then he goes, Did I just think of it? I was like, think so. So that's worked out, and then we can do all the all the puns with like, are you keeping something bottled up? We tried to go too much with the you know, right kind of theme, but but it really is true.

SPEAKER_00

27:44

That is, you know, there you need to be able to speak easy, you need to feel comfortable and at ease with your therapist to be able to talk about all those things. Uh I I noticed one of your services, it it's called Now and Then. Can you talk about that?

SPEAKER_01

27:59

Thank you for asking about that because that is our new, I've been working on this for almost a year now, and um, we have just launched it, but it um it really has been an exciting thing for us. So basically, you know, when you go to therapy, it is typically a commitment, right? It's it's a financial commitment, it's a time commitment. We do accept insurance, but even so, co-pays are very expensive. Yeah. So the way that therapy is delivered typically is on a regular weekly basis for you know, however long it takes for your um situation or your symptoms to resolve, or you know, do you get the help you need? And sometimes people stay in therapy for many, many, many years because they continue to need help and support. And there's nothing wrong with that. Um and most therapists go to therapy on purpose because I learned in grad school long ago that the best therapists have therapists, and it's true because if we don't work out stuff outside the session, it could end up in there and it could affect the client, which that we don't want. So it's just prudent. But um, but the point is that there's a lot of people that may not need ongoing therapy, or you might just need to talk to somebody just once. But the therapy is not really set up like that here. It's certainly set up that way, as far as it being there being models that can do that, that are evidence-based, that are effective. But we just uh in the United States anyway, it's just that that's not the way we usually deliver it. Not and and there's certain things it doesn't work for, that's true. But there are some people that are starting to do it across the country, and I thought it would be so great if someone could just go to therapy, book it like you're booking a massage, right? I really need to go to therapy, but I don't want to go for the next, I don't really need to. I'm I'm trying to decide about a job change, or I'm just having a really hard day with the loss of my parent. And I just want to talk about it. I don't need to go every Monday for the next, you know, six months. I just want to talk to somebody. And so we've designed this where there's it's you you don't you book differently than you book for ongoing therapy. You would just book on on a scheduling app, kind of like the same one you would use for a massage. You pick your therapy, you look and see who has availability this week, um, what times are they in person or online, whichever works best. And then you just click. Now, this isn't covered by insurance because the whole point of insurance, and most people don't realize this if you're using your insurance to pay for therapy, you are getting a diagnosis, you're getting a mental health diagnosis. Okay. Otherwise, your health insurance will not pay for it because they're paying for a treatment for whatever is wrong. So they have to make sure something's wrong, which which not everybody has a mental health diagnosis. But if you can only go there, you know, it so it makes it more like people are more likely to maybe go long-term for something to use their insurance that they might not need to. Because if you say, okay, well, how about this? I'll use my insurance, I'll go one time, and then that's it. It doesn't matter. And then I'll I've I've hacked the system. No, because in that first session, that first session isn't self-contained, they're getting background and information to then go on and treat you over time. But the whole point of a now and then session is it's a whole therapy in one session. So we have a beginning, a middle, an end. You get, you know, um referrals or resources or something at the end. And you know what? Three months later, you want to come back, you just book it again and come see us. It's not an ongoing relationship, it is a one-time relationship, like a one-time session. But in that session, we are being very clear that we are working to help you with something in this session. So you should walk away feeling like I got to talk about that with a professional that I needed to talk about it, and not, you know, I feel like it just provides more support to people that aren't ready for therapy or don't need ongoing therapy.

SPEAKER_00

32:04

I think that, yeah, I think that is a really, really good service for people. Right? Because sometimes you just you just need to talk to somebody about whatever's going on for it, and that gives you that opportunity. So your website is speakeasy counseling and therapy.com, correct?

SPEAKER_01

32:24

Yes, and okay you can get to it through that. Okay, we can change the domain today.

SPEAKER_00

32:30

Speake easy today.

SPEAKER_01

32:30

Speak easy today. We were trying to make it a little shorter, but not all of the pages show up with that. You know, it's an ongoing process. Okay. Um, so yes, either of those, either of those will work. Um Okay.

Resources And Closing Requests

SPEAKER_00

32:43

All right. Um, well, thank you so much for joining us. This has been so informative, and I will definitely make sure that the link for your website is on there so people can know that even if it's just one time to come talk, it's important with it. And that's therapy shouldn't be so scary. It's okay, you know, when you're going through it.

SPEAKER_01

33:02

It shouldn't be scary at all. And we're not scary.

SPEAKER_00

33:05

No, therapists are not scary. And I they should watch. Have you ever watched the show on Apple Shrinking?

SPEAKER_01

33:11

Love it. And they do an excellent job, I think, of showing how you know the therapeutic process and how therapists are. I know, I love that show.

SPEAKER_00

33:19

It's one of my top shows. Love it. It is great, and it's very good about grief too, because that is really how it starts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

33:26

Yes. It it yes, it really is. And I actually I do have a podcast also. It's called Long Story Longer, okay, where I work with a um psychiat uh prescriber, and we talk about issues from the lens of prescribing and of counseling and therapy. So we, you know, shrinking kind of comes up in that as well.

SPEAKER_00

33:45

Okay. Well, we're gonna put that on there as well, too, so people can listen too.

SPEAKER_01

33:48

Awesome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00

33:49

Thank you so much for joining us today. So uh everybody hope you enjoyed this discussion about therapy for it. So please leave us a review, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and hopefully you enjoyed your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, your glass of wine if it was a really bad day, and join us for another edition of Patty's Place.