Month: June 2026

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01
0:10

Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we'll talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. I'm your host, Lisa. I named this podcast in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia about two and a half years ago. So grab your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or if you're having a really bad day, a glass of wine, and come join us today so you know you're not alone as we kind of navigate through all of these things. So today I'm very excited. Our guest is Sarah Turner. She is the founder and CEO of Sarah Thrive. It specializes in circadian biology, mitochondrial health, and photobiomodulation. Sarah explores the role of light in energy, sleep, and brain function. Welcome, Sarah.

SPEAKER_00
0:53

Thank you. Thank you. It's lovely to be here.

SPEAKER_01
0:55

Yes. So I'm really I'm very interested in this whole concept with light and that.

Light As A Missing Nutrient

SPEAKER_01
1:02

So what do you think that what are we fundamentally getting wrong about light and its role in human health today?

SPEAKER_00
1:14

Yes, I think that um light is very misunderstood and underestimated as a healthy technology. Um really, from an evolutionary point of view, we are creatures that have evolved with the sun. And because of that, our bodies are covered in light receivers, and light triggers all kinds of different um hormonal cascades, uh, all kinds of biological mechanisms are triggered by light. So the indoor lives that we're living now, and screens and cars, and indoor offices, windows, buildings, it's kind of depriving us of some of those wavelengths of light, specifically the wavelengths that we would usually see in the morning and the evening, which is the infrared light. Okay. So really, as a species now, we're very, very deficient in this light. And you can see it almost like um a vitamin deficiency. You know, if we if we're deficient in vitamin C, we start to get um sick, we start to get tired, and then eventually we have brain issues. It's the same with near-infrared light. It's it's almost a missing nutrient that we don't really know we're missing because we don't really see light that way.

SPEAKER_01
2:29

I I can understand that because I know for me on days that are cloudy and gray, I my whole emotional state is different than on a sunny day. Yeah. It's really true. So you said that the body runs on light, not just food. So what does that mean in practical terms?

SPEAKER_00
2:51

Um, in practical terms, it means that our mitochondria, which is where our body makes energy, are actually stimulated by light and we produce the energy in that way. But not only do we produce energy, we also have certain signaling molecules in our body that switch on different protocols, if you like. So, for example, healing is triggered by certain wavelengths of light. So we we really yeah, uh, it is very interesting. And things like we're gonna talk a bit about the brain, I think, because your uh podcast is all about um neurodegeneration and the brain. Uh, the brain is somewhere that's very sensitive to light, and we know that we can actually use light to have an effect on brain function, and that might be difficult for some people because we kind of think that it's dark in there, don't we? We think we have this like yeah, yeah, but actually, actually, the skull is quite transparent to this wavelength of light, it will pass right through.

SPEAKER_01
3:53

Oh, that's very interesting.

Circadian Disruption And Mood Effects

SPEAKER_01
3:55

So, so as you were saying about the screens and stuff and the like indoor lights, so that disrupts our circadian biology. So, what's like the what are the consequences of that?

SPEAKER_00
4:07

Yeah, so we're talking two things here. So, circadian biology is how your body knows daytime and nighttime, and we do that mainly through sensors in our eyes. We have very specific cells in our eyes that act almost like clocks. So it tells our body what time of day, and because the body wants to do things at different times of the day. Um, but actually, we also have light receivers over our whole body that aren't um looking at day and night cycles. So it's not the circadian rhythm that we're looking at. It's as I say, more things like healing mechanisms, energy production. You said yourself mood, you know, when it's sunny, your body is that's because our body creates chemicals that make us feel good when we're out in the sun, because our bodies want they want us to be out in the sun, you know. Our bodies are helping us to kind of get that healing uh wavelength from the sun by creating molecules almost like opiates, actually, that make us glad. That we feel so good when we're out in the sun or when we're off. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01
5:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00
5:13

So it's not idiot.

SPEAKER_01
5:15

Yeah, because there's the difference. Uh, you know, for me, winter is hard, you know, because with the snow and it's cold, and I always say like I can handle a cold, sunny day better than like a dark, snowy day uh for

What Parkinson’s Trials Revealed

SPEAKER_01
5:32

that. So you've worked on clinical trial trials and neurodegeneration. So, what did you see firsthand that changed how you think about brain health?

SPEAKER_00
5:43

Yeah, that's an excellent question. Because really, that was the turning point for me in my career. Because I spent the first part of my career as in pharmaceuticals looking at um device development, like how do we deliver drugs to people? And then um I moved to the States, I moved to California, I got involved in all this biohacking, which basically means kind of manipulating your environment to help your biology. And I got involved in a trial on Parkinson's disease where they were doing exactly as I've been saying, they were using this longer wavelength, this near infrared wavelength, and shining it on the head with people who had Parkinson's disease. And these were people that were fairly progressed in their illness. And I was very fortunate to be on that trial because I saw firsthand how people were beginning to have uh a change in their symptoms, a change in reaction times, a change in we did gate analysis, but probably more important, a change in the way they related to their partners and caregivers. So for me, that was um very, very interesting that something as simple as shining light with that with a helmet could have this effect and change really the quality of people's lives. So that was a turning point when I started doing it in all seriousness to develop these devices to enable people to have access to this technology.

SPEAKER_01
7:06

That is very fascinating. It really is. It really is uh with that. So is that why you think that people can feel exhausted despite that they might eat well and they exercise? Like, how does the mitochondria fit into all that?

SPEAKER_00
7:24

Yeah, for sure. I think that may be exactly what's happening because if you don't get any kind of natural light, especially at sunrise and sunset, you are missing something. Your body's missing that signal. And the mitochondria are where your body makes energy. So people may remember from school that they're the powerhouse of the cell, you know, that's what we call the mitochondria. But but they're responsible for making one molecule called ATP, which drives all processes in the body. So if you don't have enough of this molecule, you simply don't have enough energy to do things. So your body will adjust, you know, it will give you enough energy to do the bare minimum, but maybe not enough to kind of be enthusiastic, be motivated, you know, want to go to the gym, because your body will conserve the energy if you don't have enough. So I think that could exactly be what happens to people who, you know, they think they're being healthy by eating well and maybe going to bed early, maybe doing all the things. But if you don't have the right light, um, you know, you're really not getting that energy. So it is for some people a crucial missing piece of that health puzzle.

Red Light Devices And Use Cases

SPEAKER_01
8:37

So would you suggest, like, I know they have like sunlights or different kinds of lights? Are those helpful for people to have in their houses?

SPEAKER_00
8:45

Yeah, there's all kinds of ways you can deliver light. Okay. So the light that I've been talking about, like this red light, that's something that you can have specific red light therapy devices. So they normally have, they normally look red, but actually it's invisible to the human eye. So normally the devices have a red uh bulb or LED and a near infrared, which is invisible. If you want to have it for brain, though, you do need to put it actually on the head. Because although I said, you know, the skull is quite transparent, you still do need to have the light very, very close. So most devices that are targeting the brain, my device included, it goes flush against the head. So it's either a helmet or mine is like um a headband, uh, and that what that's what delivers the the light. Those other lights you can get, like the ones which are like bright white, like they're called SAD lamps. People may know that term, sad, seasonal effective disorder. They contain all different wavelengths. So them they're more for mood, whereas the red light ones, near infrared, are more for neurodegeneration, you know, if you really want to target that.

SPEAKER_01
9:55

And on your website, it's Sarah Thrive.com. So people can purchase the infrared, like like you said, and if you see on her on your website, it's the band. So that can help with many different things. I see on here, like you have a questionnaire like uh even with your gut or focusing or your nervous

Gut Brain Link And Inflammation

SPEAKER_01
10:18

system. So who would who would this be for this?

SPEAKER_00
10:22

Yeah, so when when I was on the study that I mentioned to you, um I noticed people with um some of these conditions also it normally starts in the gut. Okay. Most people have some kind of low-level gut issue. If you have a gut issue, it means you've got inflammation in your body. That then tends to lead to brain issues. So one of the things that I thought was missing from these devices is to have a simple panel that goes over your gut. I can show you actually, I've got one here. Okay. This one something very simple that can go over your gut. Okay. Then when you're doing the head one, which is this one, simply on your head, you kind of get an enhanced effect because you heal the gut, you reduce inflammation, and then you have a brain effect. But some people suffer more with their gut, some people suffer more with brain system uh symptoms. It just depends on where your own weak spots are. Because all of us kind of have weak links due to lifestyle or maybe genetics, or you know, maybe we've had injuries. So some people have gut issues that that affect them the most, some people have brain issues. They're very interconnected. But the questionnaire just helps people to identify do you want to focus on your gut issues or your brain issues? And uh really it can help anyone who wants to get a better brain. So wherever your brain is at, you can have a better, I mean, really, that's most people.

SPEAKER_01
11:49

Yeah, most people, yeah, yeah. They would like they because you you worry about um, you know, all the different the neurodegenerate diseases that happen with it. So as someone who does have gut issues, so so that would be helpful too, because it the gut really does there's that gut-brain uh connection that a lot of people don't realize how they're connected. It's almost like your gut is like your second brain, right?

SPEAKER_00
12:20

Yes, maybe even your first brain. You know, in the embryo develops, you know, your gut is develop your gut forms, and then you form the tube, and then your brain forms. Your gut contains a lot of neural tissue, brain tissue in your gut.

SPEAKER_01
12:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
12:35

Most of your neurotransmitters, like your how your brain can be, they're made in your gut. Oh so the gut is hugely important for brain function, and they're connected via something called the vagus nerve, which is this nerve that that connects the brain, actually, the heart and the gut. But it forms a communication between them. And it's very interesting that there are a lot more signals going from your gut to your brain than going the other way around. So your gut is kind of telling your brain uh, you know, what's going on, what the environment's like, you know, how the person is, do you have inflammation? You know, are metabolites leaking out into your blood? And then your brain also is sending a signal down about what's going on in your brain. But there is definitely this communication, and the more that you can look after your gut, heal your gut, the better um you're going to protect yourself from any kind of brain condition later on.

SPEAKER_01
13:32

That's very, very interesting. That is very interesting uh with that.

Photobiomodulation Explained Simply

SPEAKER_01
13:38

So I also have to ask you, what is photobiomodulation?

SPEAKER_00
13:44

I know it's such a mouthful word, isn't it? Yeah. I know it's silly. Photobiomodulation. Well, if we break it down, photo just means light. Okay. Uh, you know, photon. I think most people know photon, photo is light. Bio is just your biology, and then modulation. So basically, it just means to change your your biology with light. And the reason it's such a big word is because the technology has changed slightly. It used to be called laser therapy, and you know, much, much simpler. But now we've changed it to photobiomodulation because lasers and LEDs can both be used, so we want to have an umbrella term, and this is something that's kind of makes the sciencey people feel sciencey by using this long photobiomodulation, but it is just a fancy word for light therapy, really.

SPEAKER_01
14:35

Okay, so why is it gaining more attention in both the clinical and wellness settings?

SPEAKER_00
14:41

It's gaining more attention because it works. Okay, I think really the bottom line, it works and it's not toxic and it's not invasive, and it's easy, and you can do it at home. And so I think all of those things, plus for a lot of these conditions, we don't have a pharmaceutical intervention at the moment. We don't have a drug that's working, so we need to look for alternatives. So, research is starting to show that for a lot of these illnesses, light therapy can help. And I'm not saying it's a cure, and certainly the FDA don't say it's a cure, but it can it can help in conjunction with lifestyle changes. So I think it's getting a lot of attention. Also, sports people are using it. I think maybe you've probably seen the face masks for beauty, you know. People are yeah, people are starting to use those a lot because what happens when you shine light onto the onto skin, it forms collagen and um elastin, and those two uh proteins together can make the face, you know, they can help with wrinkles and crow's feet and kind of plump out the face. But actually, those are also very important proteins for the structure of the body, you know, they're also important for general wellness. So I think although that red light therapy is mainly popular in cosmetics and uh face masks, is also very, very good for health. So I think it's a good thing that people are kind of getting introduced to it because then people are very they feel very safe putting it on their face because they've already done it with a face mask.

SPEAKER_01
16:17

That is very

Dementia Support Via Light And Sleep

SPEAKER_01
16:18

interesting. So let's say if somebody with, say, dementia were to put on the the one on the brain, like how would that help them?

SPEAKER_00
16:28

So people who already have dementia, their mitochondria are struggling a bit because they um have some deterioration, probably have some inflammation. So what you're doing is you're giving your giving the brain, one, you're giving the brain energy, but also what happens when um the cell receives the light is the area around the blood vessels open. So you have more oxygenated blood going to the brain, you have more waste products going, more energy and more oxygen also mean you sleep better. You know, people with these conditions have trouble sleeping, and that has a knock-on effect because we need sleep. We need sleep to power our brains, and we also need sleep to flush our brains. There's lots that goes on during sleep. So people who are already having symptoms they may find that things like their memory improves or their mood improves, has a knock-on effect of one, their sleep improving, but two, just having more oxygen and energy in their brain.

SPEAKER_01
17:30

I didn't think about that. Yeah, the oxygen in the brain is that would be very helpful. Like um, at least help them a little bit, at least maybe have a few more moments of um lucid lucidity or just a few more good moments as opposed to bad moments, probably.

SPEAKER_00
17:46

Yeah, we're not making a claim that this is going to kind of have a radical health on some a radical change on somebody who is fairly long in their illness. Right. I've seen people that have been able to have um a different relationship, for example, with the people around them. You know, people have started to in in the trial that I saw, you know, maybe have an opinion about what they're doing, maybe able to put on their own clothes, you know, maybe be able to participate in a family of they wouldn't have before. They're the wonderful things that you kind of see in these trials and that are being reported to me. It's just about, yeah, having that little bit extra resilience, a little bit extra capacity, um, a little bit more improved sleep, a little bit more improved mood. So, yes, these are not huge changes, but to the individual, they can be very, very significant.

SPEAKER_01
18:44

Oh, definitely. It definitely. Those little things can be a big deal, even um, from the caregiver point of view. It can be, you know, help them along a little bit, just have a few more, like you said, better days, or they're able to pick out their own their own clothes today, they care today about that, or or you know, they they know who you are in that moment or or or that uh for it.

Sunrise Habits And Cutting Blue Light

SPEAKER_01
19:07

So if somebody wanted to just improve their energy and sleep starting today, what you think would be the simplest changes they could make with light?

SPEAKER_00
19:19

Well, the simplest thing that people can do, and it seems very simple, but it seems to be a big arse for people, is to go outside at sunrise. Oh that's when you get that is when you get the long wave light. And if you can go outside and stand bare feet on the ground, even better, because this combination of they call it grounding, it it it sounds kind of unscientific and woo-woo, but it's really not, you know, there is a lot of science. There is a I promise there's a lot of science behind it. You're actually, you know, putting your feet on the ground, you're actually um electrostatic charges dispersing, you actually pick electrons up from the ground, looking at sunrise, you're getting that signal as you spoke about circadian biology, but you're also getting those long-wave red lights. You know, you're getting near infrared. That's probably the best thing that people can do if they can somehow change their lives or working lives or family lives to at least see a few minutes of sunrise. Now, if that is difficult, you can use these red light technology devices because that will also get put back that sunlight that you're missing. So I always say to people, you don't need this expensive tech if you can just kind of get outside and do that. If you live in an apartment block, just open the window and stick your head out. You know, do whatever you need to do. Right. That light in the morning, don't look at your phone first. Because if you look at your phone and you look at blue light, that's it. Your body already thinks it's the middle of the day. You know, our bodies are very sensitive. Because blue light signals to us that it's the middle of the day. And what do we do in the middle of the day as mammals? We're kind of forage for food and we're very active. So if people look at their phones as soon as they wake up, you're telling your body it's the middle of the day, and you miss out on all of the healing part. And if you do it in the evening, you're telling your body it's the middle of the day, and then everybody wonders why they're they're kind of snacking and hungry. Because we obviously we don't forage anymore, but we can certainly go in the fridge and start to have a little rummage because that's that's what we're telling our bodies by looking at this blue light technology. We're telling our bodies it's time to eat, it's time to be active and doing things. So looking at technology at the wrong time of day can be very disruptive. I'm not saying to everyone get rid of their phones. I know that's what all I'm saying is before you look at technology, put your head out the window or stand on the ground or see the sun, and then in the evenings, try as much as possible a few hours before bed to phase out the tech, maybe have a red. Lamp on, maybe read instead, maybe listen to a book instead of looking at something on the phone. There's lots of ways we can kind of limit that technology. You can put a red filter on, maybe if you really, really see your phone. But there are ways that we can modulate our light environment to make it more healthy for us.

SPEAKER_01
22:20

And that probably is. Yeah. I I, you know, we don't think about it, but I I when I start to read about sleep and things like that, they all say that, you know, uh stop looking at your phones, your iPads, all of that a few hours before, so your body can kind of start to wind down with it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00
22:39

Yeah. So that you're not telling your body it's the middle of the day because your body responds, even though you're unaware of it, your body is getting ready to do things in the middle of the day. And then you people wonder that they can't sleep, but it's because your body's running a different thinking, well, why would I sleep? It's the middle of the day. You know, it's because that's what you've told your body by looking at the phone. That there are a lot of apps, and if people have got an iPhone, you can put a red night filter on. Oh, okay. You can put it, you can even go as far as to wear blue blocking glasses because it's the blue light you don't want to see. So you can wear glasses that block out blue light.

SPEAKER_01
23:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
23:18

As well. There are things you can do to mitigate, but I think if you asked me for the one thing, which was the original question, I would always say sunrise, is that if you can just see sunrise or at least see natural light before technology, already you're setting yourself up to have a better day.

SPEAKER_01
23:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
23:37

From a biology.

SPEAKER_01
23:38

Well, yes, but that's important. So if somebody yes, if somebody was interested in getting the red light uh technology that you have, so they go to the website, what would they do?

SPEAKER_00
23:51

And if they're interested in purchasing everything's on there, they can purchase direct from the website. I ship to every single country uh worldwide. Um, and my team can answer questions and so can I. So it's Sarah Thrive, like you say, but it's C-E-R-A, like brain, like cerebral. Oh, okay. But my name's my name's Sarah. So I'm Sarah at Sarah Thrive. Um, or if people want to go to info at Sarah Thrive, we're always happy to answer any of these questions. And yeah, people can then um, if they want to get the device, they can get it straight from the website.

SPEAKER_01
24:28

Okay. Yeah, this has been very, very interesting as well. That so red light is good, blue light not so much.

SPEAKER_00
24:35

Blue light makes you think you're not at the wrong time. Yeah, it's okay in the middle of the day, we need blue light. Right.

SPEAKER_01
24:42

Uh well what does so blue light makes you think that you're during the day, uh like midday for it.

SPEAKER_00
24:49

So that would yeah, so blue light is great. It switches on our dopamine, it makes us want to do things, it makes us active. You know, it's it's good for your appetite. You know, blue light is a good, it's good at the right time, but you don't want to be kind of having a good appetite and be all active, you know, when you're just about to go to bed. So kind of do things at the right time. So yeah, blue light is is not something to be avoided, but just try not to do it at the kind of the extremes of the day.

SPEAKER_01
25:22

This is and that's a it's a hard one to do because people are so we're all myself included, we're all addicted to our phones, right? We see everybody. Yeah, you start, you get down that rabbit hole, you start watching these silly things, and next thing you know, an hour has passed.

SPEAKER_00
25:36

For sure. It's the it's the entire planet, I think. I don't think everybody's kind of watching cat videos, but we just kind of need to get some moderation and kind of just be just be aware of of how much you're using the phone, even simple things like if you can arrange your room so that your desk is next to the window, it's better, you know? And instead take a break and look out the window every now and then, you know, try to do things where as much as possible you're getting screen breaks, but you're also going outside. I I do a lot of business meetings, but I try and arrange them all in a group so I can walk. You know, I walk and do them. You know, there are little things that you can adjust your life so you're outside a little bit more. Just you know, I'm not talking about we can't go back to well, we could go back to caveman days, but that would take a bigger but we can make small modifications to our lifestyles that probably would have, you know, cumulatively it can have a very big effect later on in life. Because, you know, these things are just very, very small effects daily, but if you add it up, you know, potentially that can have a very big effect on how you progress through your life and your health.

Agency In Health And Closing Notes

SPEAKER_01
26:56

And you do you talk about agency and wellness and aging. So what so what does that look like?

SPEAKER_00
27:03

Yeah, so for me, agency is very important. What I mean by that is kind of having some kind of self-sovereignty. Because I think we we kind of defer to a doctor or we defer to an influencer, you know, we're kind of like very ready to kind of, oh well, my doctor's told me to take this tablet, or you know, this is the latest thing for doing that, instead of really understanding our own bodies and kind of trying these different things. You know, things like we talked about grounding, and I said, you know, it's a little bit woo-woo, this thing about standing. But actually, if you do it every day for like a month, you can tell for yourself if it's good for you or not. You know, I think agency is more about listening to your own body, doing your own research, you know, not just following the crowd. And something like light therapy, it helps you because one, you don't you maybe if you're taking a pharmaceutical or a drug, maybe you can kind of reduce that a little bit because this these technologies can help, but also it helps you have a bit more brain power, maybe a little bit more thinking space, so that you can make good choices for yourself. So, agency is is what I mean by that is how do you make good choices for yourself that are going to benefit you later on? And how do you do things that are for you specifically and not just generic advice or not something that an influencer or someone in a authority figure is telling you to do? Because I think we live in a world right now where it's very again, it's very, very difficult. We're bombarded, aren't we, with people, with information. We need to have discernment, and the only way to do that is to kind of trust ourselves. So we need to have a little bit more of our own self-sovereignty there in health.

SPEAKER_01
28:59

I would agree with that. Yeah, that you definitely have to kind of learn and listen to your body with that. And I I would agree that the light therapy helps a lot. Like I said, for me, I notice it quite often. Yeah. So for that, this has been very, very interesting. This whole conversation. Uh, I think there's a lot. I I believe in all of your research. I think there's a lot to it with for it. So it's Sarah Thrive with the C, C-E-R-A-Thrive.com. So people can check it out and hopefully see which red light therapy might help them, your gut and your brain together.

SPEAKER_00
29:40

Sure, like I say, and any questions, uh I love questions, so uh very happy to answer those. But yes, thank you for having me on. It is an interesting topic because I think it's something that people don't think about so much. You know, we think about exercise and food, we don't think so much about life.

SPEAKER_01
29:57

No, and we should because it's all it's all connected, it really is for it. And it is something so simple, like you said, just go out during sunrise. It's as simple as that so far. That's it for it. So well, thank you so much for joining us, and all of your information will be uh connected with ours so people can check it out for it. So hopefully you enjoyed your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or if you were having that really bad day, your glass of wine, and hopefully you will check all this out. And make sure you leave us a review, subscribe to our YouTube channel as well, and join us for another edition of Patty's Place.

Welcome And Meet Laura Sharp Waits

SPEAKER_00
0:06

Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we'll talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. I name this podcast in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia about two and a half years ago. I'm your host, Lisa, and this is a place where we will know that you're not alone. So grab your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or if you're having a really bad day, your glass of wine. And let's get to talking

When You Wake Up Exhausted

SPEAKER_00
0:26

today. Today I'm very excited. My guest is Laura Sharp Waits, she's a licensed minister and the voice behind At the Counter with the Baking Pastor. She creates space for people to slow down, breathe, and reconnect with God in the middle of everyday life, especially in seasons that feel heavy, uncertain, or hard to name. Welcome, Laura. Welcome to Patty's Place.

SPEAKER_03
0:48

Thank you, Lisa, for having me.

SPEAKER_00
0:51

And you know, today it's kind of gloomy here in Joliet, like it's gonna rain again. So I could really uh I think it's a good day that we're talking about all of this because some days I do find it's kind of hard to find God. So how do you keep going when you wake up tired and just you just don't know where you're going? What do you do?

SPEAKER_03
1:13

I suggest that you kind of take an inventory of what all's going on in your brain. Sometimes your brain's so full because you've got so much going on. And if you stop and pause and are willing to journal, I know some people prefer to do it on their phones, but there's an act of the the coming from the brain down the arm to the pen to a journal where you can just kind of download all of your thoughts and it clears your head up, and then you can say, okay, what's going on? I'm grateful that I can get all that in my head. It's gloomy, but that means it may rain. So we can be grateful for that.

SPEAKER_00
1:52

So spending time on the little itty bitty moments, which is hard to do, especially when you're caregiving or you're going through grief or a lot of things are going on because you just you feel lost in all of the big things. So it's it's hard to find those grateful moments for those little things at times. So how how how does somebody try to stay connected with God when you when you just feel really distant and fragile?

SPEAKER_03
2:22

Most times when people tell me they feel distant from God, it usually means they took a couple sidesteps.

SPEAKER_00
2:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_03
2:29

They weren't willing to work with God, give God their all, give the situation fully to Him. Like they would leave it at the altar and halfway back down the aisle, they'd kind of reach back up and grab it, and they're like, Yeah, I'm not ready to let go of that yet. But you know, I call the power of she were arm, you're just reaching for it and you don't leave it. But if you are away from God, usually it's because you stepped away. And so I usually just suggest get back into your into your Bible, do your devotions. But most of all, he's there to be our best friend. He's there. We can talk to him all during the day, not just when we need something. So for me, I have time specially scheduled in the morning for coffee with God. My cat and I grab the devotionals and the Bible, and I try and juggle her and the Bible in the coffee cup, which get challenging sometimes. And then I talk to him all during the day. For instance, uh, before this podcast, Lord, be with us on this podcast. Allow what you want to be heard. I talk to him all during

Feeling Far From God Again

SPEAKER_03
3:30

the day. Um, I laugh at myself and I'm thinking, wow, Lord, you're gonna have a fun time with this today, aren't you?

SPEAKER_00
3:36

Yeah, someday, you know, sometimes that's uh that old saying, if you don't laugh, you're gonna cry, right? Yes. So what do you do in seasons where you know life just doesn't look the way you expected it to do?

SPEAKER_03
3:53

That can be almost any day and almost any time, right?

SPEAKER_00
3:57

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03
3:58

Uh it can be for a whole host of reasons, but I love to tell people to find your special group, your your prayer partners, the people you can go to, your your go-to community, that if you have a I have a group text set up with a few of my favorite special people. And if I'm on the struggle bus, I'll text them a message and say, pray for me, y'all. I need help. I don't know what's going on, but just pray. And knowing that people are out there, they're not judging, they're not saying, oh, here we go again, they're just gonna pray and lift up whatever if I share, if not, they know just to pray whatever's going on. But have those people you can go to uh if they're close. Mine aren't necessarily close to where I am, so I can text them. But if you're close and can go grab a cup of coffee and just sit and hang out, that would be awesome. But make sure you have your your group of folks, and if you are navigating caregiving or a health issue yourself, please get on the prayer list. Too many people tell me, oh, I don't want anybody to know. Well, people can't pray for you if they don't know. So please add yourself, have everybody you know add you to the prayer list. I I did that when I went through breast cancer. It was the first thing I said. Put me on your prayer list because this is gonna be a journey.

SPEAKER_00
5:17

Oh, definitely. I like your saying uh I'm on the struggle bus today. I like that saying because some days it does feel that way. You're just like, I don't know what to do with it. How do you how do you tell somebody how do they carry grief or loss without feeling so alone in it? Because you do, you feel alone.

SPEAKER_03
5:39

You you can feel alone. I I've experienced that and I've watched my clients walk with that as well uh as a pastoral counselor. And again, I think that's part of having that that go-to group where you can just take your baggage because grief is one of those things like a snowball coming down from the highest mountain, and it collects

Prayer Partners And Asking For Help

SPEAKER_03
6:00

everything along the way with the grief. There, if you're a caregiver, usually you start the grief process the moment they get that diagnosis, and then it goes through, and it picks up the guilt because I'm not being a good enough caregiver, or I'm neglecting my family and my other duties because this a person, so gr uh, guilt, shame, any emotion you want to throw in their anger, anger maybe a god, uh at themselves for not having other answers, the doctors, it just collects all of that. And it just feels sometimes like I think it's gonna just overwhelm you and just roll right over you and squish you. And then you still have to peel yourself up and attempt to move on. But if you've got folks in your corner that can help and be there just to support you and say, Hey, Lisa, I know you're struggling. Can I bring you a meal? Can can I can I stop and get your favorite coffee or tea? You know, it's just little things, it doesn't have to be anything major. It may even be, you know, can I come sit with your person for a few minutes while you just go take a break in another room?

SPEAKER_00
7:07

Yeah, sometimes it's true, those those little things that sometimes as caregivers you don't always want to ask for. And if somebody can volunteer and say, hey, I'm gonna go do this, that means the world, you know. For what do you say to somebody who's angry at God? Like if they're listening and they're like, I I'm just I don't want to talk about God, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_03
7:30

Please tell him you're angry at him. He already knows, but he wants to hear from you. It would be like, again, your best friend. If your best friend, you're mad at them, they want to know, and they want to know why. And they want you to pour out your heart to them, and God wants you to pour out your heart to him. He didn't plan the situation per se, he may have allowed it, but he he didn't purposely go out to hurt you or your person that that you may be caregiving for, and it's okay to be angry. I would I've been angry at him several times. I laid on the living room floor when uh my first husband passed away, and the next day the ants got in the the air conditioner and shorted it out. Oh, and the next day the well broke, and it was just like I laid on the floor in tears, and and I'm in Savannah at the time in the summer. Oh, it is not no, you needed air conditioning, needed air conditioning and and running water, yeah, and I laid on the floor and I said, Lord, I've heard people say that you only give us so much, but I know that verse is not in the Bible, but I don't know where that came from, but I know you're you're either testing me or the enemy's testing me, but it's because I'm I I think I'm pretty close to more than I can handle. And I just cried out my heart and said, Help, protect me, send me folks to help, whatever. And the next day the guy showed up to fix the well. And unfortunately he said, Ma'am, I'm sorry, it's gonna be two weeks. And again, the Lord's like, tell him what's going on. And so I said, Look, my husband died two days ago.

Grief Snowballs And Anger At God

SPEAKER_03
9:10

I don't have any air and I don't have any water. I've got a hose from my neighbor's house and a cord for a fan. And he said, Holy moly, give me a minute. And he went and called and called every place within a couple hour radius to find the parts, called in people and was able to get it fixed. Called his wife, she brought over a hot meal and just hugged me when she came to the door. And again, it when you're going through something, you don't necessarily want to ouch yourself and you know tell all your business. But it was one of those things it was like, okay, Lord, I'm I'm gonna trust you. You're telling me to tell, so I'm gonna tell. And that was a really challenging time because I was very angry with every weird little aspect of what was going on. But I was honest, I told him, and he brought some some answers and some some solutions to the situations I was dealing with. So please don't don't make that wall permanent between you and him. If things are rocky, please step back together, fix it, apologize, just like you would your best friend.

SPEAKER_00
10:15

Uh my grandma always used to say that God doesn't give me anything that I can't handle, you know, so therefore I can handle it. But I agree with you, like some days I'm like, okay, God, I've had enough. Why can't you give this to someone else right now? You know, or she always used to like to say, uh, what doesn't um what doesn't kill you make you stronger? And it's like, okay, enough. You know, I'm strong enough. I'm strong enough. Can you like you know, spread the wealth type of a thing? Because it does feel that way. And I I'm I I always joke that I in an emergency, I I'm fine. Like I handle the big stuff. I don't like collapse during that. But my TV breaks or something, and I like just start crying. Like it's the little things that that's where it's it's too much. And it does feel that way, doesn't it? Or like one happens and then another happens, and you just like, I can't take it anymore with it. Um so how do you begin to notice God's presence in the ordinary everyday moments? Because when you have all this going on, you you do get lost in those little moments.

SPEAKER_03
11:28

You will notice things like if you have a pet, they'll come over and nudge you and they'll just want to give you comfort. Maybe you'll find something you've been looking for for a while, uh, a butterfly land outside or a bird on the ledge. Maybe you're I live in the country, so if I'm walking to get my mail, I may see butterflies or birds or flowers or clouds. And I stop and just take a moment and say, Thank you, Lord. Thank you for bringing me outside to see the beautiful sunrise or sunset or all these pretty flowers, and just take a sec. Uh and I even go way back. So if I'm looking at we got rain the other day, a bunch of rain. We're kind of in a drought. I was like, thank you, Lord, for the rain for our crops, because the farmers need the rain. And thank you for the farmers who you've trained to do that. Thank you for the tractors and people who work on them. Thank you for people who created them. Thank you for truckers that hauled that food to our grocery stores. And just start spending time thanking him for all the things I do see. And it's amazing. It doesn't take much gratitude, but just a little sometimes is is enough to get that struggle bus in first gear.

SPEAKER_00
12:42

You know, they I I have read about that, and when I am able to do that, some days I'm better at than others, but I do notice that when you take those moments and a little thing, you know, like I saw a cute dog today, thank you for that, or that it does slowly you do change your, I don't want to say your attitude, but like the way you see things uh for it. But it can be hard at times when you feel like it it's that fine line of that kind of that victim mentality, and then you know, knowing you can get through it, because you do feel very um very overwhelmed on some days with it, or you just feel very alone and sad too, or angry. All or sometimes you feel it all within like five minutes of each other uh with it. So what does it really mean then to try to slow down when everybody and everything around you is just pushing for more? Like you can't, you feel like you're drowning. How do you how do you find that that slowness?

SPEAKER_03
13:41

Well, I try and remember number one, the culture kind of created that fast pace, right? Um, we've got uh TikTok, you know, 30 seconds, we've got most TV shows, they come on, they state the problem, they fix the problem, even with the commercials, it's over in 30 minutes. We can't wait two and a half minutes for microwave popcorn. How in the world can we, you know, where's our quick fix or our magic pill? And unfortunately, most of the situations we're dealing with didn't happen overnight, and they're not gonna be resolved overnight. So when you you step back and and just take a deep breath, you know, if the TV doesn't turn on, mine didn't turn on yesterday, and I thought, what the heck? Yeah, and uh it was unplugged. So I thought, okay, guess the cat was active. So take a step back,

Noticing God In Ordinary Moments

SPEAKER_03
14:30

take a breath. And I could have, you know, blown off the handle. Why is it not working? But I was like, okay, Lord, there's gotta be a reason. And I looked, and sure enough, it was unplugged. But just taking a chance and pausing to see what's going on around you, you know. Oftentimes other people have done things or said things or have triggered you, but if you can take a second and realize they're not maybe they're not necessarily talking to you, they may be in generalizing or talking about someone else. But when we're already so tight with all those emotions, it can feel like everything's about us. But take a deep breath and and think that through. Did they really were they really saying that to me? Were they really being mead? Is this situation, you know, is it gonna be solved quickly, or do I need to take a couple more breaths?

SPEAKER_00
15:19

Yeah, it it is hard to, you know, to do that when you're in the middle of all of it. But I I do sometimes find myself being like, okay, just breathe. Just take a second, just breathe, you know, it'll just to slow that down uh with it. What would you say? What do you do? Like when a lot of times I think you feel people feel like they're stuck between where they've been and then what's next, you know, either through caregiving or through grief, because you're like this is what your life has been. Well, well, now what? How do they how do they move through that?

SPEAKER_03
15:56

Well, first they need to recognize that the grief is not just death, grief is any change. So if they were caregiving for someone and they had a routine, if that routine stops because that individual passes, now they have the loss of the person plus the loss of their routine. And so, in if that person was a a breadwinner, then maybe loss of income. And so you've got other things going on. So acknowledge what's going on in your life, you know, if your routine changes. In most cases, it's it takes a bit of time to to regroup and figure out what you're gonna do, but you don't have to make decisions overnight, you can do it in little baby steps, and just recognize what what all you're dealing with at the time, because it you very rarely today in today's culture do you have just one loss going on. You usually have a several, and when you've got several, it can be compound or complex grief, and you just you need to to figure out where all the components are coming from so you can address them and then attempt to find a solution through there. But if you try bulldozing right through, you're gonna end up loading up that truck and having all that stuff with you.

SPEAKER_00
17:12

And I think a lot of people like to bulldoze through it because they don't wanna they don't wanna feel in those uncomfortable feelings because cause they're not pleasant to feel. But I have found that when I try to feel what I'm feeling in that moment, no matter what it is, it kind of helps later on, you know. You know, because I don't know, like bulldozing through it doesn't always really work.

SPEAKER_03
17:38

Well, the bulldozing tends to be like the the quick fix, right? I'm just gonna bulldoze right through it and I'm done. But God made us to be emotional, he gave us emotions and feelings, and we really do need to feel those. We need to acknowledge them, what we're feeling, how it, you know, the impact it's having on us. And is it something we need to continue to deal with? And just because your person's been gone, I somebody the other day's person had been gone for a year and they said, Well, I guess I'm supposed to be over it. And I said, You know, there is no timeline on grief. It it comes and goes. If you need to feel it for two, three, four years, it's okay. You know, just because the world has this idea that it's it's time does not mean that it's time for you. It should be individually figured out.

SPEAKER_00
18:23

That's very true. You know, yeah, everyone's like, oh, it's that first year, and then yeah, you think, okay, and it and it's not, you know, um it was my third Mother's Day without my mom, and it it was still hard, you know, because it's like even though she wasn't a big Mother's Day person, you know, um it still was hard because the world makes it all about that. So you you you feel it even more uh, you know, before that. Those different those different milestones and stuff, they never they never go away with it's how you're

Slowing Down In A Fast Culture

SPEAKER_00
19:00

feeling. How do you hold on to hope when nothing around you seems to be changing?

SPEAKER_03
19:08

No, that God's there and he's got a plan and I need to be open to it. Uh my year, my word for the year this year was open, and it was to be open to him, open to his plans, meaning if he says something, I don't go, uh yeah, right. But I'm like, I mean, I still say, really? You want me to do what? Okay, so I I don't hesitate as much, so I'm more open, but be open to what he's doing and where he's leading you. If that particular season has closed, then he may have other plans for you. And it may not be sitting on the sofa in a dark house by yourself. It may be getting out there and meeting other people who have have dealt with what you went through. I know when I went through cancer, I actually can now look back at it and say it was a blessing. I got to meet amazing people, I had so many people, especially in medical facilities, pray over me. And had I not had cancer, I would never have met some dear friends I have now. So even in the worst thing you could possibly go through, there's a glimmer of hope. If you know um Psalm 23, even though I walk through the valley of the shadow, well, if you're in a shadow, you can't have a shadow without light. So if there's light, there's God, and that's what I hold on to for hope.

SPEAKER_00
20:36

It is sometimes what do you say to somebody who's like, I I get that, I hear what you're saying, but I just I can't see the light right now. It just all seems so dark.

SPEAKER_03
20:48

Assume that the light is there, okay, and it will find you and find a a buddy. And and I say that because I hopefully people have a support system. I know that there are people who are not. And if you don't have a support system, please go to my website and send me a message so that I can pray for you and check on you. I don't want anybody to have to suffer and not have people. It's tough enough when you've got people, and when you don't have people, it's even harder. But you know, I would ask that person, what's going on that you don't have hope? What what are you what do you are you not seeing that's right in front of you? Because you're you're focused maybe on something else. Um sometimes other things get in the way of what we should be, you know. Did you you you have a good cup of coffee? There's hope that there's gonna be another cup of coffee tomorrow or two or three, depending on the struggle bus, right?

SPEAKER_00
21:44

Yeah, depending on the day, yeah.

SPEAKER_03
21:48

Exactly. So uh you you just have to have hope.

SPEAKER_00
21:52

And you mentioned your website, so let's talk about that a little bit. So um your website is um I have it written down. Bakingpastor.com, correct? Correct. So if people go to your website, what kinds of things will they see?

SPEAKER_03
22:08

They will see some recipes in our blog. They will see some uh on Sundays. I do soul care Sunday per uh their little post to kind of make you think. I have uh blogs up there. I have oh my gosh, oh, on the homepage is a special edition soul pause journal. And soul pauses are what I have in my book and in my published journal. And people started asking for samples. So when I came on to start guesting, I created it and it's a PDF and you can download it. It's right there on the front page.

SPEAKER_00
22:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_03
22:42

Um there's there's prayers in it for different seasons that you may be going through. And oftentimes people say, Well, I want to pray, but I don't know what to pray. So I gave sample prayers, sample scripture that you could go to and check out for maybe noticing or if you're different thoughts you may be feeling. So definitely go check that out and maybe stay and listen to my podcast.

SPEAKER_00
23:06

Well, of course. Of course, they should listen to your podcast as well. And it's the baking pastor, correct?

SPEAKER_03
23:13

The podcast is at the counter with the baking pastor. At the counter with the baking pastor.

SPEAKER_00
23:18

So where can they get purchase your books as well? At the counter is the name of the book, the soul pause, the soul pause journal, correct?

SPEAKER_03
23:26

That is one of them. And the original book was at the counter spiritual

Grief Is Change And Has No Timer

SPEAKER_03
23:30

recipes for faith and everyday life. Both of those are on Amazon and the links are on my website.

SPEAKER_00
23:35

Okay. Um, I see them right here. So, and then you also offer some other oh, I see you have different um guides if people want to do it as a group as well, too.

SPEAKER_03
23:47

I have several churches right now on the uh East Coast who are doing this as a small group or a Bible study for their Sunday school class. And what's cool about the main book, the At-the-counter book, is there's recipes in there. So as a pastor, sometimes I need to break because someone had a baby or had surgery. And so pot pies is one of my favorites. So I have the traditional from scratch and then I have the shortcut because sometimes you find out that they had surgery the day of or the day before, and you don't have time to do a full-blown bake. But yeah, there's cookies and soup and all kinds of comfort food. So what's been cool is the the groups on the East Coast are actually making some of the recipes to bring and share so that they feel like they're having community time together as they work through the the weekly devotions.

SPEAKER_00
24:36

Oh, that's nice. And you know what? There is something about having comfort food. I believe that you just feel uh I I know I pulled up my mom's uh, she had like a makeshift recipe book that she put together and stuff, and that for a while there I was like making all of her recipes that she would she used to make because it just made me feel better. And and she was the one that taught me how to cook and bake. So I was like, it I felt close to her, you know. There's something about it. You're like, you just need to feel that um and have the comfort food with that. Definitely, definitely. So um that's another way people can try to, if they check out your website in your book, they can maybe find a little hope or take those few pauses to be able to maybe feel a little bit more connected uh with that.

SPEAKER_03
25:24

Um, like an example of one. I I just opened the book. Um, one of them says, What blessings have you carried with you through a hard season? Or who might be need a quick word of blessing from you this week? Sometimes the blessing is not necessarily for you. It's maybe God puts somebody on your heart and you text them a message. And I've done that before and just said, I don't know why, but God had me message you. And then I get back, you know, like 20 emojis that are crying. I've been waiting for to see if he was hearing me. Thank you. And so you know you were a blessing to them, and that blesses you.

SPEAKER_00
26:00

That's true. Yeah, sometimes, or like sometimes I'll find like little memes or different pictures or different things, and I'll sign and I'll be like, I was just thinking about you. This reminded me of you. And then like you could tell that that person um that cheered him up. My one friend, uh, she lost her her mom and her sister, I think almost 10 years ago now. And her mom used to love love giraffes. And so she told me one time that uh it seemed like every time I sent her a picture of a giraffe, it seemed to be a time that she was having really missing

Hope When Everything Feels Dark

SPEAKER_00
26:30

her mom and thinking about her mom, and then the giraffe would pop up, you know, like and I didn't know that. I wasn't, I was just like, oh, this made me think of you. So, like, that's true. You never know when you send a little something that that helps a person through the day with that.

SPEAKER_03
26:45

A little bit of love, and and it could be a meme, it can be a funny joke, it can be anything. You know, I I love those crazy dad jokes that you're just like head smack, you know. Um, and I've got one friend who I can send them to, and and I get back, oh my goodness, every time, or or something equivalent. Right. It doesn't take much, right? If if you know, because we don't know that they're not looking for hope today. We don't know what other people's situations are fully. So share, share the love and the joy as you can.

SPEAKER_00
27:15

And sometimes some days it is hard, but it's nice when somebody thinks of you like that and they sign you something and and to be able to say, Wow, I needed that today. You know, or like sometimes people say that, you know, if you just smile or say good morning or hello, sometimes that's what that person needed for the day.

SPEAKER_03
27:33

But that they I think a lot of people need to be need to feel seen and heard. And oftentimes if they're going through something like grief or or some type of loss, they don't feel seen. They feel they're in the background and the loss ends up forefront. And so to to see them, to mention them, to talk to them, and then let them share for a minute allows them to be seen and heard and feel more human again.

SPEAKER_00
28:00

I would agree with that, uh, definitely. Because people always like, you know, if you need anything, tell me if you need something or call me if you need anything. And and as the person who's going through all that, you're thinking, I don't know, I'm lucky I know my name today, let alone what I need. But those times when somebody showed up with a meal or or just sent you something silly, it made you laugh, you know, like you really appreciated that, you know, because because you do feel helpless on the other side because you don't always know what to do for that person, you know.

SPEAKER_03
28:34

So as a rule, I don't typically send sympathy cards. I wait a week or so because everybody knows everybody in their whole family is all together until the day of.

SPEAKER_00
28:43

Right.

SPEAKER_03
28:43

But then after the funeral, you go back to your home and you're usually alone. Yes. Everybody else goes back to work or wherever they're currently living, and it becomes very, very lonely. So I wait about a week and then I send a card or I'll take over a meal or I'll invite them to come out. Let's let's go have coffee. I'll pick you up. And they're gonna say, Oh, I don't think I'm ready to go out yet. Okay, well, can I bring coffee to you? Oh, yeah, that sounds good. So I I like to be there to support them because I know they've got a journey ahead of them. They've got their family to the point of the service, and then after that is when it seems like everybody just oh, they're gone.

SPEAKER_00
29:25

That that that is true, that's really true. It's like that

Resources Recipes And Closing Reminders

SPEAKER_00
29:30

that's like when it really starts. I mean, because all that busy stuff is done uh in that distraction, and now you're like boom, okay, now what do I do? How do I do this? You know, and it is those little things.

SPEAKER_03
29:44

And we can only have so many casseroles given to us, right?

SPEAKER_00
29:47

Exactly, exactly. You can only eat so many, you know. So your freezer is full. Exactly. And sometimes you need that person to be like, Yeah, let's go out, let's go for coffee, or go for a drink, or let's just, you know, I'll come over, we'll watch something silly together, you know. Um sometimes those are what you need for it for that. Um so your website again is baking pastor. Bakingpast.com for that. And people can get your book at the counter on Amazon and at the counter the Saul Soul Pause journal as well on Amazon too for that. Um and they can also check out your podcast too. We'll make sure we put a link to this with ours as well.

SPEAKER_03
30:33

You can. The episodes come out every Wednesday morning, so there'll be a new one tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00
30:38

Okay, for that. Well, thank you so much for joining us on Patty's Place today.

SPEAKER_03
30:44

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00
30:46

So I hope everybody enjoyed our discussion and know that find those little things. God's always there. So I hope you enjoyed your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or if that was a really bad day, your glass of wine, and know that you are not alone. Please leave us a review, follow us on, subscribe to us on YouTube, and hopefully you'll join us for another edition of Patty's Place.

SPEAKER_00
0:08

Welcome

Welcome To Patty’s Place

SPEAKER_00
0:09

to Patty's Place, a place where we'll talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. I'm your host, Lisa. I named this podcast in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia a little over two years ago. So grab your cup of tea, your cup of coffee, if you're having a really bad day, a glass of wine, and come join us as we talk about things. And just so you know you're not alone. That's what we're here for. So today my guest is Teresa Evans. She is an author and also she was an ICU nurse as well. So welcome, Teresa, to Patty's Place.

SPEAKER_01
0:38

Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00
0:40

So um we're happy to have you too. Your book is called Choosing to Die: A Daughter's Story of Supporting Her Mother's End of Life Through Assisted Death. Is that correct? Yes. Okay.

Teresa’s Story Behind The Book

SPEAKER_00
0:54

So tell us a little bit about yourself and how the book came about.

SPEAKER_01
0:59

Um, I'm Canadian, but I I've lived in the United States since I was uh 18, but all of my family lives in Canada. Okay. And um my mother um had a turkey childhood and um a lot of health issues that sort of plagued her, and then she had a heart attack when she was 60, and um her health just never really bounced back. She did have open heart surgery, but she had multiple health issues that were slowly but surely leading to uh a decline in her quality of life to the point where just before, I would say two years before her 80th birthday, she was really most of her days were spent in what I would call suffering, pushing for some relief from that. And we had tried every medical intervention known to man and um every non-medical intervention that we could come up with. And one day I just said, you know what, mom? You live in a country where you don't have to suffer. If this is intolerable for you and you want to explore MAID medical assistance in dying, I said, I'm not trying to off you, I don't think you think that by any means, right? But I said, I do want you to know that you do have a choice. I I personally I think the worst place is to feel backed up against the wall with no choice. Yes, and I didn't really know that she would explore it, but she did, and then she came back and said, Yep, I'm gonna do it. And um, that was a little bit shocking. I mean, of course, I supported her a hundred percent. So that's how this story started. And um, this was in 2020, so COVID was really raging at that point, and I I had lost my job, which was a travel job anyway. So I hopped in my car and I drove to Ontario and I spent three and a half months with her and my two sisters before she laid down and died on her 80th birthday.

SPEAKER_00
3:15

Oh, okay. Okay. So in

Where MAID Is Legal

SPEAKER_00
3:18

Canada, this is legal.

SPEAKER_01
3:20

It is, it's legal in Canada and it's legal in 14 states in the United States, and there are 12 states that have it on the dockhead trying to get some kind of legislation legislation through.

SPEAKER_00
3:32

So Okay. Yeah, my mom used to talk about that too, way before she got sick and stuff, because she just never she always looked at it as your quality of life, you know, what what's that quality uh with it? So I completely understand uh on that side of it. So, why did you want to write the book?

SPEAKER_01
3:51

I just it was such a remarkable experience for me to live that last three and a half months with mom and also as a critical care nurse, and uh I've just been around a lot of people when they're leaving their bodies, and I've seen how it can go if there have been thoughtful conversations beforehand between all of the family members and the person who's leaving, and I've seen how it can go when there hasn't been any thought given to the fact that we are all going to die one day. And I really wrote the book, first of all, just to honor my mother and share our story. Um, I am an advocate for maid, of course. I don't feel that everybody should choose maid, but I do feel that everybody should have that choice. And I want to more than anything, just get people talking about the fact that one day we will all die. And how do we show up for somebody who's getting ready to take that journey? I'm hoping that this book will spark those conversations. And from the feedback that I've gotten already, a lot of people have been, I wish I'd read this book before my mother died. I wish I'd read this, you know. So I'm I I think it's serving its purpose so far. Well, that's good. So, what is made? What what does that stand for?

How Medical Aid In Dying Works

SPEAKER_01
5:23

So, medical assistance in dying is um a program that was first legalized in Quebec in 2015 and now all over all over Canada in 2016, where you can ask for medication that will actually cause your death. Okay. And it is you have to be evaluated by two independent doctors. If there's any doubt about your mental capacity, you also have to be evaluated by a psychiatrist. Okay. Um you have to be a Canadian citizen. If you're doing this in Canada, you have to have a health card, a Canadian health card. You have to be of sound mind. So you have to be able to give consent right at the time of when you receive the medication, even. So there's never any um forcing involved. Uh, you can change your mind at any time. You're reminded constantly that this is totally fine to change your mind. Um, and so you have to uh be able to give consent, and you need to be suffering from um from a condition that is not going to get any better. It's clearly not going to improve. If anything, it's just gonna continue to get worse. I think initially they had a six months. I know in the United States there's a six months time period, sort of aligns with if somebody goes on to hospice, but I believe that that is not the case in Canada anymore. So my mom easily met all of that criteria. And um, so she received a cocktail of medications. She she chose what day she wanted to die. She said, When should I do this? And I'm like, do it on your birthday, mom. Why don't you do it on your birthday? Do it on the same day you came in. I mean, it was, you know, reasonably, it was within months of her birthday. And I mean, how do you choose? Right, right. I I don't think anybody really wants to die, but I think people become exhausted when the physical, mental, and emotional suffering just becomes so overwhelming. I

Dementia And The Consent Problem

SPEAKER_01
7:54

think it's a little bit different when you have dementia because you're not always aware. I've worked in a I actually helped open a dementia unit in a long-term care facility and Alzheimer's unit, and worked in that unit for two years. And um it's a different type of suffering. I think oftentimes it's more difficult for the family than it is for the person that has dementia.

SPEAKER_00
8:22

I I would agree with that because they don't they don't know.

SPEAKER_01
8:25

Um there's that initial, I think that initial period where you you do know. You know that something's not right anymore, but you usually slip through that period, you know, you move through that period, and then you're just not aware anymore that yeah. So I think what makes what made MAID, I mean, actually a lot of people who who have dementia or have a history of dementia in their family really want to be able to access MAID. And this is one of the ongoing debates in Canada right now is because actually, if you have dementia, you can't access MAID because you can't give consent at the end.

SPEAKER_00
9:08

No, you can't. You really can't. You can't. And um, my mom and dad had done the powers of attorney years before, and that that's actually how we got my mom diagnosed. And it was kind of funny, not funny, but I don't know, lack of a better word. But my dad and I were trying to do some stuff with the bank, and the bank was like, No, she has to give her approval, and we're like, she has dementia. She, you know, I could sit right next to her on the phone and tell her what to say. I mean, I I appreciated that they were protecting her rights, but it was like, I don't think they understood. So my dad and I were like, all right, we're just gonna leave everything right now, you know. Yeah, yeah, it's like, no, she she'll say whatever I want her to say, and I don't want to do that to her, you know, like it's just crazy the lack of understanding with it. So

Family Support And Anticipatory Grief

SPEAKER_00
9:56

was your you said you had two sisters, were you were your family on board with your mom with this choice?

SPEAKER_01
10:01

They were. It was the three of us just uh they live close to mom in Ontario, and um the three of us just rallied. It wasn't easy, but it wasn't, I mean, we didn't spend mom's last months um crying and wishing it were different. We spent, we just decided to show up for her and make it as as joyful of a time as we could. I mean, of course, we were experiencing a heavy, heavy load of anticipatory grief. And that would seep through every once in a while, but rather than we knew that once mom left, we would have time to process our own grief. And again, I I've just being with families, members, I think, and I write about this in the book, I think that oftentimes we confuse our grief. We we think that our grief is the way the person who's leaving is what they're experiencing, also, and we sort of lay our grief on top of that person. And I think they're two separate um events, and it's completely different for the person that's leaving, and we really wanted mom to know that every good thing that she had ever done as a mother, and just literally love her out of her body without any judgment. And um, you know, we we dealt with our grief after mom left. I mean, mom was grieving too. She was grieving the fact that she didn't know if she would how she would see us again. That's true. Um, so you know, we we were we were actually helping her uh work with her own grief. I think um we all believed that death is really a transition. So none of us really thought of it as a real ending. And um just more of a transition, and we would have to access our communication with mom in a different way.

SPEAKER_00
12:18

I think that's really true because um well, my mom always believed in I, so then I kind of believe she taught me that like you you're you can the person's still with you just in a different form. And even like before she before she died, weeks, even almost a couple months before, she started seeing like family members, uh and that. And I just went along with her when she would talk about them like, oh, who's here, you know, and stuff. So yeah, it she wasn't scared, it brought her comfort, and it brought me comfort because I believe they were there with her, you know, yes, with it. And so I still believe she's she's with me, you know, uh in different in different ways with that. Well that uh that was good that your sisters and all you were on the same page, because sometimes families aren't right, yeah, with that.

SPEAKER_01
13:07

I think um we decided that even I think for all of us, even if we hadn't agreed with mum's decision for with made, we all could see how much she was suffering. And it was just about supporting her, not about whether we supported her decision, but whether we supported her.

SPEAKER_00
13:33

I think that's a good distinction to make that you are you're doing it for her. Uh yeah with that. And yeah, that anticipatory grief, I I can relate to that because I I always tell people I lost my mom years before I physically lost my mom. Uh and that's knowing like I there would be different things. Like my mom used to call sometimes, like literally one day, I think it was like 30 times. She called me, you know. And people and people would always say, you don't have to answer it all the time. And and I would say, I know. And and if I couldn't, if I was at work or something, you know, I wouldn't. But in the back of my mind, I always wanted to answer it because I knew there was gonna come that day where she wasn't gonna be able to do that anymore. And so it was like I knew that, and it did, it came that day where they called, and somehow my mom had dialed numbers that were, you know, we had one of those phone like landline, you know, and she just had to press a button to call me or call my dad, and somehow she dialed some other butt person's number. And luckily they figured out, you know, where she was calling from, and they called the the the facility to say, hey, you know, we just we could tell she has dementia or something, you know, you know, and then we took the phone out. But yeah, that whole anticipatory grief, I think in some ways, if you're able to recognize it, I think it helps a little bit as you're going through the process.

SPEAKER_01
14:53

I agree with you, and I think it um I I mean I can only speak for me, it made me very thoughtful about. I mean, when I would be with mom, when I was with mom, when I would look in her eyes, I would really look in her eyes. Like I knew I really wanted to see her because I knew that the time was limited, and I don't think that we're always um oh coffee delivery.

SPEAKER_00
15:18

Oh, that's even better.

SPEAKER_01
15:21

Yeah, I don't think, you know, I mean, our lives are our lives are full of distractions of ways to get distracted, and um this this what this did for me, I don't think I've ever been present for anything the way I was present for my mom for those last three months of her life.

SPEAKER_00
15:44

I would agree with that. Um I can relate to that because with dementia, they live in that present moment. So you're I was forced to be in that present moment with her, especially like the last the last week um when we knew it was coming. Uh yeah. You you are you're just that's all that exists for you with that. So what do you hope readers will take away from um your book?

SPEAKER_01
16:11

Well, uh

Advance Directives And Starting The Talk

SPEAKER_01
16:12

like I said, I really hope that they this will this book will spark conversations around end-of-life issues. Um Compassion and Choices is the United States organization that is lobbying and helping educate people about assisted deaths here in the United States. And they say really anyone over the age of 18 should have advanced directives in place: a durable power of attorney for health care, a durable power of attorney for um business affairs for your bank account, etc. And so I plan on getting very involved in compassion and choices. I'm still working and getting the book out is a full-time job. Oh, yeah, yes. I was just at a writing workshop, and I I mean, I had no idea what I was getting into. Writing the book is one thing, but getting the book out there is a whole different animal. And they were saying, you know, when you have a book that's been published traditionally, you might have 30 to 50 people involved in getting that book out from you know the editors all the way through to the marketing. But if you're independently publishing a book, you are all 30 of those people. Yes. So it's been like a full-time um job. And I just feel like I feel so close to my mom because I just feel like we're doing this together. I know she would be so excited about this. And so it feels like this big journey that we're on together. And I didn't physically, I wasn't physically living close to my mom for most of my life. So while we talked all the time, I only saw her once, maybe twice a year in a good year, because I was over a thousand miles away from her. So to spend that last three months with her, and now I feel like we're together all the time, you know, working on getting this book out. So I do, I do hope that the book inspires families and individuals to reach out to their people, whoever their family is, right? And um start to have these conversations.

SPEAKER_00
18:29

And you said that you wrote this from the point of view because your mom was a master gardener.

Gardening As A Metaphor For Leaving

SPEAKER_00
18:34

So so you talk a lot about gardening and things like that within the books. So how does that is the garden is like a healing place? So can you describe that? Like how how is that written for you that way?

SPEAKER_01
18:47

Well, mom asked, she was she was such a wonderful gardener. She had huge vegetable gardens when we were growing up, and then for the later years of her life, a beautiful flower garden. And while I was there, she asked me for that last three months if I would put her garden to rest for the season. And so, of course, I was thrilled to do that. And as I was working in the garden, I started noticing that everything I was feeling, I was witnessing in nature. So nature just became a giant metaphor for what we were experiencing. And I realized that it's just all part of the cycle of life. I mean, you know, we can't really have life if we don't have, we have, I mean, death is part of life. And there's there's times where we're growing, and then there's times where we're decaying, and it's all a natural part of the cycle. And again, I'm hoping that my book, so mom, so what I did was I as I started writing the book, I I couldn't not talk about the garden. And all of a sudden, it just became that I was writing our story uh through the lens of what a plant would be going through. And so I just I made a list of all of the plants in mom's garden, and each chapter focuses on a different perennial. And as I'm telling the story of what's happening in the house with with my sisters and with mom, and our journey of saying goodbye, the plants are also getting ready to um, they're dropping their leaves or throwing their seeds. It's fall, right? So the same process was going on, and so I share a lot of botany in the book.

SPEAKER_00
20:36

Well, that's that's kind of neat because it is, it's very it is the cycle of life. We don't like to think about it, but it is really true with it. So we get gardening tips too, then a little guy.

SPEAKER_01
20:46

You do, you get gardening tips, you learn a lot of botany. There's actually a um, there's actually a glossary at the back of the book with all the botanical terms in it.

SPEAKER_00
20:56

Oh, that's cool. Yeah. So

The Countdown And A Peaceful Death

SPEAKER_00
21:00

what do you think was the hardest part of this journey for you and for your mom?

SPEAKER_01
21:07

Uh I think it was I thought it was gonna be, you know, that moment when we laid down with her and she received the medication, but that was, you know, I say in the book, um, I don't know if I can find it, but you know, she mom had asked us, she said, now girls, if you feel like you're gonna fall apart, don't just leave the room, you know, because she didn't want to have to take care of us. You know, she was leaving her body. And I say, we didn't fall apart. We fell into the the magic and the mystery of the moment. Um, we laid down with her like kittens, we just snuggled around her and um. And she just quietly and peacefully took her last breath and left her body. I I think again, anticipatory grief can be a heavy load. We all experience it in different ways. It's very, it's an odd kind of um knowing to know the exact day and time your mother is going to die. And so there's a little bit of a like a countdown of, you know, I say when I got there, we had 86 days, which felt like 86 days felt like it was going to be plenty. But as each day, as we got closer, it felt like the days were just flying by. Some days it felt like they wouldn't, they were never ending. And those were the days where maybe for me, I was more preoccupied with the reality that mom would be gone soon. Um, and again, I carried that. We tried to carry that. Not that we didn't talk about it, but it wasn't the major topic. Mom loved fossil hunting. I took her on a fossil hunt a couple weeks before she died. She loved um bingo. So we, you know, she couldn't, it wasn't, she wasn't vital enough to go out and play bingo in the bingo hall, but we we set up a bingo game. She loved, you know, she had a plant that her Christmas cactus that uh we ceremoniously split into three pieces and repotted. And we did really, she wanted to knit scarves and hats for all of her grandchildren and then all of her great-grandchildren, which was a lot of knitting. The four of us were doing a lot of knitting during those months, but to her, that was a tangible way, you know. I describe it as a tangible way of wrapping her love around, you know, each each one of her grandchildren and her great-grandchildren and her children. So we she taught me a lot about gardening during that time, too. So we really used the time to um we just we had a birthday party that was for all of us, you know, like the last birthday party with, you know, celebrating each other while mom was still here. So I think the hard I think the hard part is always just knowing that you're not gonna be able to call, I'm not gonna be able to call mom up and say, how what was the recipe for that pancake, mom?

SPEAKER_00
24:38

Exactly. Yeah, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01
24:40

Yeah, that's what I did you find yourself, did you find yourself sometimes I mean you I suppose because it was drawn out with your mom, but I even though I knew very much that mom was gone, I I would still months after I would think, Oh, I just need to, and I'm like, Oh yeah, no, mom's not I I can't do that anymore.

SPEAKER_00
25:01

Yeah, because my mom didn't know who I was, you know, but I could still physically go see her. And I went to go see her every day. And every once in a while, she would have a lucid moment. Like she'd look at me and she'd say, I know this is really hard on you. And I knew that was, you know. Um, but I always kind of just went with her after a while, like whatever she said. I was so glad I paid attention to all her stories about her family and everything. So when, because she thought she was back when she was little, she thought she thought that the memory care um was her grandma's house. And so uh we my dad and I just went with that. We're like, yeah, you're a grandma's house, you know, you know, so I was glad I paid attention. But that is what I missed the most now that you know she's physically gone. I miss just picking up the phone and calling her. You know, her and I used to watch TV together. She used to, uh, you know, she used to have all the gossip magazines and you know, things like that. Like she would call me, put this on. Did you hear about this? You know, I miss that kind of stuff. Or like, you know, she taught me how to bake and and cook and all that. And, you know, sometimes when I'd come over, she'd be like, okay, you you need to we're gonna make this recipe because you roll out stuff better. I don't use this rolling pin anymore, you know, and stuff like that. You know, and that's the stuff I you miss just being being able to call and talk to them about whatever, you know. And yeah, I mean, it it was hard because she didn't know, but then you know, I but she was still physically there. So I could still see her, I could still get something out of it. But you talk about like that knowing because hospice had told us when they knew she had like about a week left, and that was like that that in a way that was like a countdown because like I I knew, you know, she was only gonna be a few more days or a few, you know. Um, and I I was with her when it happened, but my mom being my mom and the caregiver, you know, people asked me what was the exact date, you know, time that she and I was like, I don't know because she went when I had closed my eyes for a little bit. And I knew she did that on purpose because she didn't want me to hear her last breath. I just knew it. And so I wasn't upset about that. But she I I know that she knew I was with her, you know, yeah, uh, with that, um, yes, with that part. So we learn about gardening and everything for that. It sounds like you you you know, you and your sisters had a very, I don't want to say a nice time, but a very special time with your mom then for those last three months.

SPEAKER_01
27:29

It was it was a remarkably special time. I mean,

Letting Go Of Belongings Without Guilt

SPEAKER_01
27:32

mom wanted all of her ducks in a row. We we we totally uh repainted and cleaned her house. She we sold everything that she wasn't using. We, you know, and of course, families, I I talk about this just like gardens, just like plants, families. Each plant has its own timing, each human being has its own timing. And um, I know uh like one of my sisters felt when mom was encouraging us to get rid of her stuff. She said, get rid of my stuff. I want all of this taken care of. And she wanted to, she had the realtor, got the realtor, and the house went up for sale literally five days after she died. Oh wow. Um, yeah, she wanted all of that stuff taken care of. She had given away the things that she wanted uh people to have, and we were kind of lucky because the guy had moved into town where mom lived, and we put our first ad up on marketplace for some of the kitchen stuff, and he bought it all. And he said, Well, he said, you know, he said he just moved into town and need he needed everything. And my sister's like, Well, well, Wesley, that was his name. If you can wait, say, like 18 more days, we might be able to help you out. So basically all of Mom's furniture and apartment went over to him. I said, if we ever really miss mom's stuff, we can go visit Wesley. Yeah, there you go. My, you know, my I I one of my sisters felt like I think she felt like we were sort of getting rid of mom faster by getting rid of her stuff, although we were just doing what mom wanted. And so those moments came up, of course, like they do in all families. But rather than get reactive about it, I was just like, I understand that. And, you know, have a conversation with mom and see what she wants. Because if if we should slow this up, we think we're just doing what mom wants, but just double check. And so as long as we kept coming back to not not what we need necessarily, still honoring that, but more what does mom need in this moment? What does she want? If she wants us to sell everything in the house tomorrow, then let's do it, you know, let's keep some sheets for her bed. And um, so yeah, it was, you know, and we sat the night before we created a beautiful altar and we hung fairy lights and we turned this space into this just sacred what we felt was a sacred space um for mom's actual leaving.

SPEAKER_00
30:11

That sounds beautiful. It really does. Um, I know a friend of mine uh had a similar feeling that your sister had after her mom had passed and they were cleaning out stuff, her and her family, and she just started crying because she felt like she was throwing her mother away, you know, just because it was her things and stuff, and I think that's just a normal reaction to know, like, yeah, okay, I can't I'm gonna keep this, but what do I do with this other thing? You know, it just because it's their things, you know. You just you feel like it.

SPEAKER_01
30:44

I think with my I have one daughter, um she's 40, she'll be 47 in June. Hard to believe. But I um I find myself now at the age of 66. I'm really being careful about what I bring into my house. And um after just going through this experience with mom and seeing how people struggle to um get rid of that the person who's left, to get rid of their belongings, you know, and that feeling that that's a piece of them. But uh I didn't have I'm not attached to things that way. I mean, I'm not saying I don't love beautiful things because I do, but I also um it was it it's not hard. I don't I'm more of a purger than a saver. Okay. And I am helping a gentleman right now go through his house after his wife died a couple years ago. And she they have a big house and they had a lot of stuff, and I don't want my daughter to have to go through boxes and boxes and boxes of stuff. Um I mean, when I leave, I want her to spend her time walking the beach and fossil hunting and being in the woods mourning me, not through getting rid of a lot of collections of things. So I'm trying to be, I mean, just for me personally, it made me very mindful about um what do I really need? And you know, it's funny um because I would say, as I've it's been five years for for me now with mom, and things of moms that she had given me that I thought I would always, I would never part with. Um, she had a beautiful medicine pouch that she was very close with the um the Native Americans in the that lived in that area with the Aboriginals, and they had made her a medicine pouch, and I and she gave that to me, but last year I just thought, I don't need this anymore. I'm done with it. My journey of needing to hold it to feel close to mom is over. And and I asked that I asked my daughter, I said, would you like this? And of course she was like, Oh, I would love to have it, mom. So it's hers now. And you know, and I said, and know that when you're finished with it, when if a time comes where it's not necessary to be in your space anymore, it's okay. Grandma would be fine with that. It's like you don't have to to have this for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_00
33:27

Yeah, I always I kind of when we were going through my well, we had to do it twice because my dad sold their house at, you know, when she first went into memory care. And then again, it was all her things in her um in her room in memory care. But I always in my mind, I erred on the side of if I wasn't sure, I kept it because I thought, well, I can always go through it and get rid of it later. And I have done that, even with clothes and different things. I'm like, no, I this is okay. I can do this with it. So

Where To Find The Book

SPEAKER_00
33:56

where can someone purchase your book, choosing to die? A daughter's story.

SPEAKER_01
34:01

You can find the book on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Tertullia. My own website is Teresa with an H, Teresaeevans.com, and you can purchase the Kindle version right off my website. Okay. Um, there you can purchase the audio version from Audible. Okay. It's a beautiful audio version of the book. So uh yeah, all the usual suspects you can find it and on my website.

SPEAKER_00
34:29

Okay. Well, we will definitely put all of that information on there. So thank you so much for joining us today. This has been a beautiful conversation.

SPEAKER_01
34:39

Thank you. I've enjoyed it immensely.

SPEAKER_00
34:42

So I hope everyone has enjoyed this conversation that we've had. So make sure you leave us a review or add us to your subscriptions on uh uh YouTube and hope you enjoyed your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or your glass of wine, and join us again for another episode of Patty's Place.