Month: August 2026

Welcome To Patty’s Place

SPEAKER_02
0:09

Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we'll talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. I started this podcast in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia about two and a half years ago. I'm your host, Lisa. So this is a place where you'll know that you're not alone. We can talk about all these things that are really hard to talk about at times. So grab your cup of tea, your cup of coffee, if you're having a really bad day, maybe a glass of wine, and we are going to get started today. Today I'm really excited. We have uh Dr. Elizabeth Scott here. She's a psychologist, and her latest book chronicles her journey from near terror to near acceptance of her mortality. So thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much, Lisa. It's a pleasure to be with you. So your book is entitled, You're going to die but not me. That's correct. I like that title. I like it. So what inspired you to write this

Why A Death Book Now

SPEAKER_02
1:03

book?

SPEAKER_00
1:04

Yeah, really. Well, I mean, the the very quick answer is that I'm quite old. So that's the very quick answer. But um the the slightly longer answer is that um I was diagnosed in 2014 with breast cancer. Oh, okay. So uh so that was let what 12 years ago that would have made me 67. And um I did not handle that well at all. Okay. I was a I was a big baby about it. Well, it's understandable. Yeah, yeah. It is an you know, I'm trying I give myself some grace because I know it's a very hard thing to go through. Um the the backstory on this though is that uh I had a quite a difficult mother, and my sister and I were uh had a lot of trepidation about what it was going to be like as she approached the end of her life, and because she was very demanding and self-centered. And the very strange irony is that she died with a lot of grace and peace and um ease, and it made the whole experience so much easier for my sister and me. So when I look back on my um own experience going through my breast cancer diagnosis, and I'm fine now by the way, everything is. Oh, well, good, good. Yeah, thank you. Um, I realized um it was a gift to my sister and me to have my mother approach her death in the way she did. And I didn't, I I didn't want my own children to be burdened by the experience of my death being a, you know, if I was gonna go kicking and screaming and a lot of, you know, angst about it, I thought that would be a real burden for them. So I wanted to that got me in a path of wanting to feel a little bit more ease and acceptance about my mortality. That's where it started.

SPEAKER_02
2:54

Okay, which I can understand that. Because yeah, when you are going through things like that, it it makes you really start to think about all of that. Um, how did your feelings

Research As Exposure Therapy

SPEAKER_02
3:06

about death change?

SPEAKER_00
3:08

Well, um, this was a very so I I dug in and um I'm I love to do I love research. I'm you know, I'm kind of a research buff. Um, anytime my kids have, you know, if they need a new rice cooker or something like that, I'm on it. Like, what's the best rice cooker? So um I went down every single rabbit. I so I decided to write a book about it because I'm a writer also. Okay. Um and so I went down every single solitary rabbit hole I could find on the subject of death. And um, I don't know how familiar you are with the concept of or the uh methodology of exposure therapy. This is something that we psychologists use often with people who have difficult um experiences related to um oh experiences or memories or feelings. So I this was became a kind of course of exposure therapy for me as I went down all these different rabbit holes on the theory, on the subject of death and mortality. Um so that's the kind of um shorthand, I think, the the kind of quick answer to what happened for me. There were there were different subjects that gave me um more of a modicum of peace around it. Different, different some things made me more frightened, other things made me less frightened.

SPEAKER_02
4:29

And I can understand that because you know a lot of people they get scared of even the topic of death or illness. They don't want to deal with it. But in a weird sort of way, when you like confront that or you you face it and try to deal with whether it's your illness or a family member's illness, it almost does bring you peace and makes you realize how you need to live in the present.

SPEAKER_00
4:52

Yeah, there's another really important basic kind of psychological uh approach that I use that I've used with my clients. I've been a psychologist for almost 50 years. And um thing I know is true is that when we avoid things that are frightening and create anxiety for us, it only increases the fear and anxiety when we avoid. And the antidote to that is approach, is to, you know, put on your big girl pants, be brave, and and find a safe way to approach whatever is um frightening you. So that's a kind of general theory. It's kind of goes along with what you're saying for sure.

SPEAKER_02
5:32

And and I'm kind of like you too, like when with my mom, like I had no, I noticed she was not herself quite a for quite a while before she was actually diagnosed. Oh but when she when she finally was, you know, I kind of was like, okay, I need to learn about this and how can I deal with it? Some things work, some things didn't, and then to learn more about it. Because I was I always feel like if I can understand it, then I can get closer to accepting it because I understand what I'm dealing with.

SPEAKER_00
6:02

Uh I think that's so true. And it's it would be understandable going through something as difficult as a parent um developing dementia. It's it it it's almost um counterintuitive to think about, well, I'm just gonna, you know, immerse myself in this subject because it's something that's so difficult that the natural instinct is to want to just kind of block it out and not think about it. So, you know, good for you for doing that. I it takes courage. Well, thank you for saying that.

SPEAKER_02
6:30

But you know, and for me, it was like I just just trying to figure out how do I deal with all this, you know. Same thing, like as you said, when you got your diagnosis, okay, well, what am I dealing with? Because it's so overwhelming. Health, what whatever the illness is, trying to understand it and then doctors and hospitals and uh with all of that. So when you were doing writing this book, what was the most surprising thing that you you found?

SPEAKER_00
6:54

Yeah, there

Panpsychism And Cosmic Comfort

SPEAKER_00
6:55

were so many surprising things, so many surprising things. Um so um, I don't know if you've ever heard of the concept of panpsychism. No, I don't think I have. Okay. Okay. So uh when I first came across, so the the the uh sort of very basic way of understanding panpsychism is that everything in the universe has consciousness. Everything. Okay, so it it was very easy for me to believe that my dog and my cat have some kind of consciousness, you know? Okay, well I I I would agree with that. Yeah, right. And so, but I read like their this amazing book about plants. There are there are plants that have just this amazing ability, some plants to kind of ward off insects or create toxins so that they don't get so predators don't you know attack them. There are like like whales can communicate with other whales 300 miles away, trees can communicate with each other through their roots. And even so, plants and animals, that's one step in this panpsychism. But even things like mountains and the ocean and dirt, you know, if you start thinking about everything in the universe, every single solitary thing in the universe has some kind of consciousness, not in the way we humans would think about it, but in this very broad sense, what happened for me um was this kind of sense of I'm I'm me and this body are are a collection of molecules that are part of just the whole universe of molecules. Okay. You know, just the whole it's just one big giant web of consciousness. And it was surprising and strangely comforting.

SPEAKER_02
8:53

I I could understand that. I could see where that would be comforting.

SPEAKER_00
8:57

It's kind of far out notion, I know.

SPEAKER_02
8:59

But but I can I you know, like I I can understand that, you know, especially like even if you just take it as, you know, I I always felt like all of my dogs had their soul. Like I feel like totally. Don't you just know it? They're dogs. Oh my god. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like that.

SPEAKER_00
9:14

I know some people don't agree with that, but I do, you know. I I do too. I do too. I know my dog's gonna start talking to me one of these days, too. I don't know, but you've ever felt that way.

SPEAKER_02
9:23

And I feel like they do. Like they look at you and they're like, What are you doing?

unknown
9:27

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02
9:28

Yeah, yeah. Uh well, I ended up taking care of my mom's dog because we ended up having she had to go to memory care. And um, she was this little 14-pound terrier. And she had such an attitude. And I would sit out on my patio, and she would only want to be out for a little bit, and then she'd go in, and then I'd be sitting there talking with my neighbors and stuff, and I'd look and she'd be at the patio door just looking at me like, Aren't you done yet? Exactly, exactly. And then she'd like go exactly and she'd walk away like, Oh, I'm so done with you.

SPEAKER_00
9:58

She'd be like, Exactly, exactly. Plus their little individual personalities.

SPEAKER_02
10:03

Exactly. Yeah. So out of all this, what what do you think was the most helpful thing that you learned? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00
10:11

Um there are a number of things in in different different areas. I don't, I I kind of don't want to give away there's an arc in the book. There's an emotional arc. I kind of don't want to give away the total arc. Well, right. I will say that it it I did come to a place where I realized that there was there were other things beneath the fear for me. And this I noticed this with clients that I work with too, that oftentimes, this this might sound strange, but for most of us, there are feelings that we're better at that are that we're eat that are easier to access, and other feelings that are not so easy for us to access. And I think it goes, you know, individual by individual what that what those are. And so I realized what in a way it's been easier in my life to access fear than some of the other feelings underneath that. Okay. And um, in this exploration, it helped me understand some of what was underneath my fear. So that was really, really helpful. And again, um having this sense that I yes, my life in this one form will be over pretty soon. Um, you know, uh a feeling of just kind of getting connected to the the web of the universe was quite comforting. I mean, I I don't, I don't couldn't, I can't get myself to believe that there's gonna be any, you know, listeness, you know, of my individual consciousness left. I know that that some people believe that there will be. I couldn't, I can't get myself to believe that. I I wish I could, but um, but I'd still a sense of um it's kind of like you know, the physics theory where you can't destroy matter, it only changes shape, it only changes form, you can't destroy it. So yes, my body in this form will no longer be here, but it will disperse into other, into some other form. The pieces of me, the molecules of me will go into some other form or other.

SPEAKER_02
12:22

No, I can understand that. I have a really good friend, and we joke all the time. He'll be like, you know, I'm like, all right, well, I'll talk to you later. And he's and we always joke like he goes, unless the Lord needs me on another plane, he always says Exactly, exactly, exactly. And I'm like, I understand.

SPEAKER_00
12:37

Exactly. Exactly.

Dementia Teaches The Present Moment

SPEAKER_00
12:40

You know, that reminds me too, Lisa, that um I think I think another thing that came out of journalist research is this it's it's such common wisdom, but you know, all we have is right now. We don't know what tomorrow will bring. You know, I I you know, I could get hit by a bus when I take my dog up for a walk this afternoon. And we we just don't know. And so um it's kind of like, yeah, unless I meet you in another plane, or you know, let me just be here now because this is what we've got. And that was really an important. All this look into death was a very stark reminder uh to be here now. Just be here now, you know, embrace the day, embrace what I have.

SPEAKER_02
13:26

And I always say the one thing that you can learn from uh people who have dementia is that they are in that now. That's all they know. Totally, totally. And and you do see it differently because you're like, you know, because two seconds from now they'll be so talking about something else. And so you it they force you to be in the now if you enter their world.

SPEAKER_00
13:51

I think that's absolutely right. It's one of the um, you know, I think I I believe we can learn something, you know, from anybody almost in any circumstance, and that's a beautiful thing to learn. And to, I mean, I don't know, I know a lot of people that have a uh a loved one who's had has dementia. It's um it's a challenge, like, you know, I you just asked me that five minutes ago, or I just told you that, you know, instead of like it's honoring it and it takes a long time to get to that point because you're trying to understand it.

SPEAKER_02
14:24

It really does. I that's why I tell everybody if you can get there and enter their world, it just makes your stress goes way down, you know.

SPEAKER_01
14:34

Totally.

SPEAKER_02
14:35

It really does with it. And then even like you said, like um my dad, he actually talked about it happened, you know, like he um he's been in the hospital now almost the entire summer. Uh oh my gosh. And um he, you know, he's not gonna be able to go back to live by himself, you know. So like this was I always said, well, this was not on our bingo card for right now. So you know, so um you just don't know, you know, with things and learning. And I I think by learning to kind of be in that moment with my mom, it's kind of helping me deal with a lot of the things for him, you know, like even the point of like, okay, I know he has to go into assisted living, he can't live by himself. And I had to go look at all the places, but I was like, it's your decision. Like I kind of knew where I wanted him to go, but I was like, this is your decision. You know, I'm not the one that has to live there, you know.

SPEAKER_00
15:33

Good for you, good for you. Is he fighting having to go into assisted living? Is he resisting that?

SPEAKER_02
15:39

No, he kind of knows, but it's still hard. Yeah, you know, it it's it's a hard decision. His whole life is, you know, uh changing and things like that. And and it is hard. And so that's why I've been trying to approach it, you know, learning with that with my mom to be like, okay, and like telling them, you know what, if you can't decide what you want with certain things, we'll get a storage unit. I don't I I don't want you to feel like, oh, you your whole life has to get pushed away. Because I know that would make me feel really, you know, it's a lot, you know, and I and he's gonna be 80 next month. So he's been I know he's been thinking a lot about, like you said, death and and all that. Even though I know he says he wants to live to 100, you know, it it makes you just really start, you know, thinking about that. So so you I you obviously you've worked with clients that have this fear of mortality.

Working With Mortality Fear

SPEAKER_02
16:36

Like how do you how do you work with them? How do you approach that?

SPEAKER_00
16:40

Yeah. Um my I'm always surprised when I hear people say, Well, I'm not afraid of dying. And I I want to put to to the side people who are like maybe have a very um painful, debilitating illness. You know, I can see why death might feel like a relief in in that case, or somebody that's been severely depressed their whole life. I'm gonna put that to the side. Okay. For for the rest of us who um are not in those categories that say I'm not afraid of dying, frankly, Lisa, my what goes on for me is that I think, well, that's just denial. That's just denial. Because it's too, it's it's just how can we how can we contend with this notion of, well, I'm here one day and the next day I'm just not here. I'm just gone. I'm just you know, that's just uh to me a kind of patently terrifying notion. I I just you know, um, so I think um well to me the we are our best selves if we can accept our whole range of feelings, and that includes fear. But if there are some feelings we're not willing to accept or we're not willing to admit to, I think that creates a kind of unease in us that is difficult to contend with. It's just kind of oh feelings want to be felt, they want to be expressed. That's the job of a feeling, it wants to be expressed. So if we're not letting ourselves express a feeling, I think um it creates a kind of uneasiness. So my job, and I this is not just in fear of mortality, but all in all sorts of different kinds of feelings with clients, is to help create a safe space where somebody can gently, safely um access their whole range of feelings and express. And talking about talking with somebody who you feel safe with is one of the main ways of expressing a feeling, right? Instead of just holding it in and or having it just kind of bounce around in the container of your head, you know. So um yes, I've had plenty of clients who express that fear, and I I my first thing to do is to normalize that. It's like, of course you're afraid. Of course you are. And let's let's examine what are the things you're afraid of, or is there anything that you can do to calm yourself? Is there any are there any action steps you can take? Like um I it's been very important to me to sort of get my affairs in order before I need to. And that's that has decreased my fear. I have, I have, you know, a list of all the things my kids need to know about, you know, after I die. I've got the list of all the telephone numbers and all the papers where all the papers are. I'm trying to, you know, clean out stuff I don't need so they don't have a big giant mess to deal with. And that makes me feel less afraid of what I'm gonna leave to them, leave for them to deal with. So that's one small aspect of fear that I can deal with.

SPEAKER_02
19:55

And I would agree with that, you know, uh to get your affairs in order, which is it's a hard thing to really think when you have to start really thinking about, okay, who do I want to take care of this? You know, who do I trust with this? Well, who do I want to have this or that, you know, uh with it. But it does make life a lot easier for people when it is in order. And as you were talking about your feelings, you know, it was a hard lesson for me to understand and learn that, you know, feelings are not right or wrong. They just are.

SPEAKER_00
20:27

Exactly. It's almost like saying, you know, I'm I'm wrong if I feel cold in 20 degrees. I mean, it's just that just is right. You know, it it's a feeling, it just is. Like you say, it's not right or wrong. It's just a feeling.

SPEAKER_02
20:40

And if you don't deal with the feeling, your body will at some point make you deal with the feeling. You're not kidding, it will.

SPEAKER_00
20:46

And you know, I always say we get two choices. We can deal with them directly or indirectly. Those are the two choices.

SPEAKER_02
20:52

You know, and like I I always say that I'm I'm the type of person that's like oh, an emergency, I'm fine, I'm calm. I I'm like, okay, gotta do this, this, and this. But then like the TV doesn't work and I like fall apart, you know. Exactly, exactly. Exactly. I hold them together too long, right? And then I fall apart. Yeah. I'm like, don't mess with the TV. I'm just like, you know. Um, but yeah, and a lot of people they they are uncomfortable, they don't want to hear about, you know, hey, this is where you need to know, this is where the papers are, this is their oh, I don't want to talk about it, I don't talk about it. But I think it helps ease both people. You know, the person who's telling you this eases their fear, but then also you need to know that. And and again, sometimes somebody is sick and you have time, but then sometimes it's sudden and you and you don't know.

SPEAKER_00
21:45

And then what do you do? Exactly. Exactly.

Get Your Affairs In Order

SPEAKER_00
21:49

Exactly. And I think there's a long there's a long chapter in my book about this. Might sound kind of grim for people, but um, the whole thing about what do I excuse me, what do I want to do with my body after? I died. And that was a long exploration for me. And I did feel like I didn't want to burden my children with that decision. You know, I I felt like it would help help ease my mind to make that decision for myself and communicate it with them and to communicate it to them so that that's something I could kind of tick off the list.

SPEAKER_02
22:25

And and it's and it is important because my um, well, I've told this story before, but at first when I was growing up, my mom used to say, you know, it'd be invitation only to her wake. Because if you didn't talk to her and you didn't like her, don't be showing up to her wake. And then she would say, Don't you dare have anybody looking at me, you know. And then she her and my dad then both decided that they want to be cremated because my mom was like, Don't be spending all that money on a, you know. And then she was like, You do whatever you want with the ashes, you know, if you find somewhere peaceful, that's fine. You know, but that made me feel better. My dad, you know, he's a veteran, so he he wants to be cremated, but he wants, you know, his ashes at um, there's a veteran cemetery near uh the house, and that that's what he wants. And he wants the full military. And I was like, okay, but it's like that's what you know, and it's important to know people's wishes because it makes it a lot easier when you're going through it. You have a uh like a guiding way to go, okay, this is what they wanted.

SPEAKER_00
23:24

I think so too. I think so too. And I think I, you know, I think it's great that your parents communicated that to you because again, it's so much stress, I think, on kids to try what would you want this, would you want that? I mean, what and then maybe the kids will argue with each other or debate with each other, you know. So it's it's just I think it's a real uh gift you can give your kids to make that decision yourself and communicate that to them.

SPEAKER_02
23:48

And for me personally, I found peace because I knew I was doing what my mom wanted. Exactly. You know, and I was like, okay, I'm honoring her wishes. You know, she even laid it out, these are the songs I want played.

SPEAKER_01
24:02

Oh, I love that. I love that. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02
24:04

And that she did that long before she was sick. She's like, you need to know this. And I was okay, you know, and but my mom had had a lot of um, a lot of death in her life. So she I think she felt, I don't want to say close to to death, but she she wasn't afraid of it. And so you know, so she she she talked about it all the time, you know, in the sense of this is what I want, this is what I don't want, that types of things, you know. And I know a lot of people don't want to they don't want to talk about that. Oh no, I don't want to know, but when it happens, it's so overwhelming with it.

SPEAKER_00
24:37

It's almost like I don't want to talk about it equals like it's not gonna happen to me. Right. But that's not true.

SPEAKER_02
24:43

Right. Unfortunately, it's gonna happen to all of us. Yes, yes, ma'am, it is. Yeah. So what do you want people to take away from reading your book?

SPEAKER_00
24:52

Yeah. Um, well, uh again, the main uh the main thing is um be brave. Be brave. Um explore, think about this, think about what you want, take a look at what you're afraid of. Is there anything you can do um to help you along this way? Um are there people you can talk to? Um and um uh yeah, I think I think um if you have children, I do think it's a blessing to get your get your life, get your situation in order because as you said, you know, we never know how long we have. We just don't we just do not know how long we have.

SPEAKER_02
25:36

And when you were going through the whole your all your breast cancer, what was how I would phrase this? So what did you find comforting for like what did was there certain things that people did or said that like really helped you?

SPEAKER_00
25:53

Um Well, my my kids were great, you know. They they came to doctor's appointments with me and after my surgery they were there, you know, and all that, all that. I I I don't

What Helps Versus What Hurts

SPEAKER_00
26:05

um I I was a big baby, Lisa. I was a big baby, and um I I wish I had more grace about it. I mean, I'm trying to give myself, you know, you know, I'm not trying to be too hard on myself because it was a turning point for me on this journey. And and I'm glad that I've kind of gone down this road of finding more peace. Um they were very, very helpful. And you know, I had wonderful doctors and they were very reassuring and um helpful. And I'm fine. So I got, you know, I'm lucky. Right. Uh you know, I'm lucky because it wasn't it could have been a lot worse, and it wasn't. Um so I think I think the main thing is it was a big learning experience for me. It was a giant learning experience for me for which I am grateful.

SPEAKER_02
26:56

Was there anything that people did that you would advise people like not to do or say?

SPEAKER_00
27:02

You know, because I know people don't always know what to say or do when someone says Yeah. This is kind of gonna be an obvious thing, but you know, don't tell me horror stories. Don't, you know, like there are a couple people that would tell me horror stories, like, why are you doing this? Right. You know, stop. You know, just like what what are what are you thinking? Telling me these I mean, it's such it seems like such an obvious thing, but don't do that. Yeah, do not do that. And the other thing is don't um minimize, like, like, oh, you know, you're gonna be everything's fine and you shouldn't be afraid, and don't minimize, you know, don't um discount. Um, you know, you can have empathy and you can encourage without minimizing or discounting what somebody's feeling.

SPEAKER_02
27:47

And I've always I I've tried I've learned and I try to do this, you know. I probably don't always succeed, but sometimes people they just need to vent or they just need to know you're there listening. Totally, totally, totally. Yeah, like they they don't want to fix, they just want you to listen, you know.

SPEAKER_00
28:05

Totally, totally. I I think one of the this is sort of a general principle, but I think the simple question of you know, what would you like now? Would you like advice or would you just like to would you just like to be heard? You know, if you're confused about what somebody wants, ask what they want. Or if you're confused about what they need, ask. You know, this kind of like jumping in with advice is often not helpful.

SPEAKER_02
28:31

Yeah, you know, and and sometimes I I kind of learned with my mom, all she ever wanted was peace. Because she had she had a lot of chaos and that in her life. And so I was like, well, that's all I can give her, you know, because with with dementia, there there's nothing I can do, you know. So at least I could give her peace.

SPEAKER_00
28:52

It's wonderful. It's wonderful that you know that you came to that and you understood that that's a beautiful thing, Lisa.

SPEAKER_02
28:58

Because it's like, you know, you you feel so helpless with it. Yes, you do. Because there's just there's nothing, you know. There's you know, so I was like, okay, well, I could at least try to give her that, you know,

Be Brave And Where To Connect

SPEAKER_02
29:10

at the very least, you know, with it. So so do you have advice for anyone who harbors some of the same fears you did about mortality?

SPEAKER_00
29:19

Yeah. Yeah. Um, I again, I think, you know, be brave. Um find us find safe ways that you can explore this subject. Um you know, it's it's we're all gonna die. So not thinking about it doesn't change that fact. And um, and be here now. So um, you know, seize the day. This is what we have. So, you know, try to try to be the person you want to be, try to live the life you want to live in the here and now, and um be brave and look at the things that frighten you. Which is scary, but you know, and you can do it little by little.

SPEAKER_02
30:01

You don't have to do it all at once.

SPEAKER_00
30:02

Totally, oh my gosh, totally. Safely and gently, safely and gently. And that you know, it took me it took me like three years to write this book. So I had three years of safe gently. I wasn't like one all of it in one time. Right. You know, so just a little bit at a time. And um, it wears off the the sharp edges, you know, when you can do something a little bit at a time.

SPEAKER_02
30:25

Well, yeah, and even you know, if you're the caregiver side of things to try to do it a little bit at a time, because that's overwhelming too when you're trying to deal deal with everything uh with that. So exactly. Where can we purchase your book? The name of the book is You're Going to Die, but not me.

SPEAKER_00
30:42

Right. And I I chose that title because I'm hoping that people understand that there's a lot of humor in this book. There's a lot of humor. So um that's a kind of like a you know, the whole a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down. I think, you know, having some humor in this makes some of the topics much easier to absorb. Um, so you can buy it on Amazon or Barnes and Noble Online or this is the book. Um I have a website or and a substack. And and if anybody wants to be in touch, I I love connecting with people.

SPEAKER_02
31:16

So and your website is Liz Scottrider.com, is that correct?

SPEAKER_00
31:20

It is, exactly. And that's my substack too, Liz ScottRider.substack.com. And you have several other books on there as well, too. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and I like I say, just if anybody just wants to say hi and connect, I that's there's no no you don't need to buy a book. Just really seriously, I love connecting with people. It's a it's a wonderful thing.

SPEAKER_02
31:41

Well, this has been a pleasure, and we will make sure that we put all of your information on there as well. So, and I agree with you, sometimes you have to laugh at all this stuff because otherwise you're either gonna laugh or cry, and maybe you do both.

SPEAKER_00
31:53

Indeed, indeed, indeed. Thank you so much, Lisa. I really appreciate it. It was lovely talking to you.

SPEAKER_02
31:59

Well, thank you for for joining us here. So I hope you guys have enjoyed this and check out the book as well. So hopefully you enjoyed your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or a glass of wine. Uh, make sure you check us out on our uh website and our YouTube channel and and join us for another edition of Patty's Place.

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_02
0:10

Welcome
to
Patty's
Place,
a
place
where
we
will
talk
about
grief,
dementia,
and
caregiving.
I'm
your
host,
Lisa.
I've
dedicated
this
podcast
to
my
mom,
who
passed
away
from
dementia
about
two
and
a
half
years
ago.
So
I
just
want
you
to
know
you're
not
alone
in
all
of
these
things
that
are
going
on.
So
grab
your
cup
of
tea,
your
cup
of
coffee.
If
you're
having
that
really
bad
day,
maybe
a
glass
of
wine,
and
we
are
going
to
get
talking
today.
So
today
I'm
very
excited
about
our
guest.
He
is
singer,
songwriter,
and
reimagined
founder
Brad
Wolf.
And
he's
going
to
talk
about
his
recent
single
and
all
kinds
of
fun
stuff
that
you
do.
Brad,
welcome
to
Patty's
Place.

SPEAKER_00
0:43

Thanks
so
much
for
having
me.
Really
appreciate
being
here
and
here
to
honor
your
mom
and
everyone's
uh
experiences.

SPEAKER_02
0:52

Yes,
yes.
And
I
I
listened
to
your
uh
your
single
Why
Wait,
which
is
by
Brad
Wolf
and
the
Moon.
That's
a
really
cool
video
I
watched
on
YouTube.
We'll
put
the
link
in
there
too
about
that.
Um
so
let's
talk
about
that
song
first.

The Story Behind Why Wait

SPEAKER_02
1:09

So
that
was
inspired
for
your
grandma.
Was
that
correct?

SPEAKER_00
1:12

Yeah,
yeah.
My
my
grandma
um
lived
an
incredible
life.
She
lived
to
102
and
recently
passed
away.
Um,
you
know,
I
think
a
big
part
of
her
life's
impact
on
me
was
the
fact
that
she
um
grew
up
in
Poland
um
and
and
was
a
prisoner
in
Auschwitz
and
some
other
concentration
camps
um
during
World
War
II.
And
hearing
the
stories
of
the
horrific
experiences
that
she
went
through
as
a
young
person,
she
was
19
and
cared
for
her
two
younger
sisters
after
her
parents
were
killed
uh
through
those
experiences.
Um
some
of
those
stories
were
just
both
heartbreaking
and
also
showed
me
the
resilience
of
humans
in
our
in
our
desire
for
life.
And
and
um
Why
Wait
is
a
song
about
um
not
waiting
to
live
with
what
matters
in
our
hearts.
Uh
and
she
really
showed
me
the
preciousness
of
life
and
and
what
that
what
that
really
means.
What
does
it
really
mean
to
not
wait?
Um
and
yeah,
one
of
the
things
that
she
said,
it's
at
the
beginning
of
the
video,
um
she
said,
uh
I
want
people,
I
I
believe
people
should
be
tolerant
of
other
religions
and
other
races
because
we're
only
here
for
a
short
while.
Somehow,
because
of
our
impermanence
for
her,
that
taught
her,
showed
her
that
that's
why
um
we
should
be
kind.
And
there's
something
about
death
and
loss
and
and
serious
illness
that
if
you
it's
a
it's
a
rupture
in
our
lives
when
something
traumatic
happens
to
us,
but
we
have
the
opportunity
during
those
ruptures
to
turn
toward
kindness,
to
not
wait
uh
to
love.
And
so,
yeah,
that's
what
the
song
Why
Wait
is
about.
I
wrote
it
for
for
her,
and
um
I
actually
filmed
me
playing
it
for
her
the
first
time
when
she
heard
it,
and
it
eventually
became
this
music
video
after
she's
now
passed
away.

SPEAKER_02
3:35

Yeah,
and
I
watched
the
whole
video,
it
was
very
good.
I
really
liked
it.
And
she
it's
so
true
what
your
grandma
said
that
when
you're
having
those
ruptures
to
be
able
to
turn
to
kindness
because
I
have
found
that
it
seems
like
when
these
things
happen,
kindness
doesn't
always
come
out
in
everybody.

SPEAKER_00
3:54

I'm

Kind Grief Versus Destructive Grief

SPEAKER_00
3:55

I'm
about
to
speak
uh
at
the
American
Psychological
Association
of
with
uh
and
and
debut
a
new
framework
that
that
uh
reimagine's
been
working
on
that
really
undergirds
our
our
work
as
a
nonprofit
organization,
which
is
about
kind
grief
versus
destructive
grief.
That
people
say,
you
know,
there's
no
wrong
way
to
uh
to
grieve,
which
is
true.
There's
no
wrong
emotion.
We
we
we
we
want
to
be
able
to
be
with
and
and
be
okay
with
where
we
are.
There's
no
pressure
to
grow.
But
what
we
see
time
and
again
is
that
out
of
our
pain,
there
can
be
some
negative,
destructive
outcomes,
self-harm,
um,
harming
one
another,
uh,
ways
that
it
that
that
pain
can
can
shoot
out
in
community
and
even
on
a
broader
global
scale.
Grief
sits
beneath
a
lot
of
our
division
uh
and
a
lot
of
our
pain.
So,
how
do
we
tend
toward
our
grief
in
ways
that
move
it
from
uh
out
of
this
destructive
category
toward
toward
kindness,
kindness
to
ourselves
and
kindness
to
others?
And
if
that's
the
fundamental
place
that
grief
can
move
us,
which
I
think
it
has
the
potential
to
do,
the
world
can
be
could
be
different
through
our
own
through
our
own
pain.

SPEAKER_02
5:17

That's
that
is
very
true.
It
really
is.

Reimagine And Free Support Communities

SPEAKER_02
5:20

So
let's
talk
about
you
have
uh
you
you
mentioned
Reimagine,
it's
your
nonprofit
foundation.
So
tell
us
a
little
bit
about
that.

SPEAKER_00
5:29

Yeah,
so
Reimagines
a
um
really
a
space
um
for
people
of
all
backgrounds
to
find
uh
free
community
support
that's
engaging
and
uh
through
the
hard
parts
of
life.
So
we've
hosted
over
5,000
virtual
events
uh
of
all
kinds
where
people
of
all
backgrounds,
as
I
mentioned,
uh
maybe
you
maybe
you're
interested
in
um
in
movements,
maybe
you're
interested
in
dance,
maybe
you're
interested
in
learning
uh
in
a
session,
maybe
you're
interested
in
just
mourning,
maybe
you're
interested
in
peer
connection.
There's
so
many
types
of
events
that
are
happening
all
the
time
on
our
platform
uh
that
you
can
join
for
free
where
you
meet
other
people
or
even
sit
there
and
and
and
soak
in
what
someone's
talking
about,
but
just
to
not
be
alone,
uh,
but
be
an
but
also
potentially
be
an
active
participant
with
other
people
who
understand
uh
what
you're
going
through,
but
with
the
idea
that
um
not
just
about
kind
of
sitting
in
the
same
cycle
of
our
moroseness
per
se,
but
right
what
do
we
do,
what
do
we
do
with
our
pain
and
and
uh
how
do
we
transmute
it
into
creativity,
into
kindness,
into
acts
of
love,
into
small
acts
of
self-care
uh
to
make
it
okay
uh
to
navigate
our
pain
in
these
healthy
ways.
So
we
have
these
events
that
I'm
telling
you
about.
We've
helped
over
250,000
people
uh
through
these
experiences.
And
uh
we're
we're
just
releasing
a
new
platform
that's
like
a
new
social
media
platform,
uh,
where
the
root
of
the
platform
is
uh
navigating
our
painful
moments,
but
in
ways
that
generate
more
connection,
um,
more
kindness,
more
more
uh
small
sweet
steps
towards
positive
actions
in
the
world
where
people
are
creating
something
out
of
their
out
of
their
pain.

SPEAKER_02
7:28

And
I
think,
I
mean,
I
think
that's
a
wonderful
idea
because
sometimes
I
don't
think
people
realize
obviously
grief
takes
many
different
roads
and
different
emotions
and
that,
but
sometimes
by
being
creative
or
being
in
a
group
or
doing
something
simple
that
your
loved
one
used
to
love
to
do,
that
you
are
still
processing
your
grief
and
it's
a
good
way
to
come
together.
And
I
think
people
get
overwhelmed
sometimes
when
they
hear
like
group
settings,
but
you
don't
always
have
to
say
anything.
Sometimes,
like
you
said,
if
you're
if
you're
a
doer
and
you
like
to,
you're
hands-on
person,
there
you
are.
You
can
like
create
things
and
you're
being
part
of
a
group
and
you
don't
feel
alone.

SPEAKER_00
8:06

Yeah,
I
mean,
and
part
of
the
platform
we're
building
is
you
don't
even
have
to
be
public,
you
don't
have
to
be
even
show
up,
you
don't
have
to
see
anybody
else.
Uh,
we're
trying
to
find
ways
in
for
people
to
find
their
own
path,
but
enough
available
paths
that
meet
us
all
where
we
are.
Um,
but
but
to
your
point
about
about
creating
something,
um,
there's
a
lot
of
power
in
that.
Um,
and
and
learning
that
and
practicing
that
and
and
saying,
hey,
out
of
my
pain,
you
know,
what
we
try
to
help
people
do
is
figure
out
what's
possible
for
me
now.
Um,
what's
what
and
what
what
are
my
dreams
now?
Uh,
because
I
can
look
at
my
life
and
say,
oh,
this
this
was
a
hard
moment
in
my
life.
This
is
a
painful
moment,
but
now
what?
And
and
if
we
can
support
each
other
toward
finding
those
now
what's
that
really
matter
to
us,
um
that's
really
that's
that's
the
kind
of
the
name
of
the
game
because
we
can't
necessarily
go
back
to
the
same
place
where
things
were
before
because
things
are
different.
Uh
so
where
are
we
gonna
go?
And
and
that's
where
we
have
some
agency,
and
and
um
you
know,
but
it's
it's
hard
to
to
because
grief
is
overwhelming
and
pain
is
overwhelming,
so
or
it
makes
us
want
to
go
numb.
And
so
how
do
we
how
do
we
overcome
that
um
together?
And
to
your
point
about
um,
you
know,
when
when
you
get
these,
when
you
engage
with
this,
there's
a
lot
of
pressure
in
our
culture
just
to
get
over
it.
Just
to
exactly,
yeah,
just
to
get
over
it
and
get
back
to
work,
get
back
to
whatever
I
was
doing.
Um
by
the
time
the
funeral
happens,
it's
like,
oh,
all
right,
now
that's
over.
The
now
the
year
mark
is
done,
and
it's
like
move
on.
Yeah.
But
the
fact
is,
we
can
be
honoring
our
loved
ones,
we
can
be
honoring
that
experience
um
for
the
rest
of
our
lives
because
that
experience
of
losing
somebody
or
of
some
kind
of
pain
that
we
go
through,
those
experiences
do
stay
with
us
our
whole
lives.
Yes,
whether
or
not
we
talk
about
it
or
not.
So
we
better
to
actually
continually
find
ways
to
uh
integrate
those
experiences
in
our
lives
in
ways
that
feel
good
and
are
healthy
for
us
and
for
those
we
care
about
in
an
ongoing
basis.
In
honoring
the
people
that
we
love
continually
through
our
actions
and
through
our
words
and
through
our
our
deeds,
um,
and
with
support
from
others
who
are
with
us,
we
can
actually
make
that
relationship
even
stronger,
make
our
relationship
with
ourselves
stronger,
and
make
our
relationship
with
others
stronger.
So
there's
so
much
beauty
that
can
come
from
these
painful
places.

SPEAKER_02
10:51

And

Creativity As A Safe Outlet

SPEAKER_02
10:52

so
how
can
creativity
help
us
process
our
emotions?

SPEAKER_00
10:58

So,
you
know,
I
think
what
it
is
is
that
our
emotions
want
an
outlet,
they
crave
an
outlet.
Um
you
know,
we
know
this
because
if
we
try
to
keep
them
in,
that
doesn't
usually
work.
No,
it
doesn't.
And
so
then
what
happens?
Then
one
option
is
it
comes
out,
but
it
can
come
out
as
expression
in
ways
that
are
not
good.
Um,
you
know,
me
yelling
at
my
wife
or
me
um
you
not
being
as
patient
with
somebody
that
I
care
about.
Um
these
are
things,
you
know,
I
don't
I
you
know,
we
we
all
we
all
deal
with
have
you
know,
we
all
get
angry,
we
all
get
sad,
we
all
have
these
emotions,
but
how
do
we
respond?
Creativity,
and
I
want
to
say
that
creativity
doesn't
just
have
to
be
art,
it
could
be
all
forms
of
expression.
Um,
but
if
we
can
channel
our
pain
and
let
it
come
out
in
a
direction
that
is
generative,
that
that
that
is
positive,
um,
that's
and
there's
so
many
pathways
for
that.
That's
beautiful.
Uh,
and
so
that's
where
I
think
creativity
is
one
of
those
vectors,
and
it's
something
we
all
have
access
to
in
terms
of
singing.
It's
like,
yeah,
we
can
all
sing
in
the
shower,
we
can
all
sing
in
the
car,
we
can
all
listen
to
music.
And
even
just
being
with
music,
for
example,
is
just
one
outlet
we
have.
Uh,
but
so
is
going
for
a
walk
in
nature
is
creative.
So
is
picking
out
the
outfit
that
we
wear
in
the
day.
We're
creative
just
by
getting
through
the
day.
Uh,
because
we
have
to
make
all
these
choices.
And
as
humans,
man,
those
are
creative
choices.

SPEAKER_02
12:36

Well,
yeah,
I
mean,
it
doesn't,
like
you
said,
it
doesn't
necessarily
have
to
be
art.
It
could
be,
you
know,
playing
with
a
dog,
being
around
little
kids,
or
like
you
said,
walking
in
the
in
nature,
any
of
those
things,
gardening,
all
that
stuff
could
be
creative.

SPEAKER_00
12:49

Yeah.
Yeah.
And
so
reimagine
what
you
know,
what
we
help
people
do
is
we
help
people
figure
out
do
I
want
to
make
a
garden?
Do
I
want
to
take
a
walk
in
nature?
Do
I
want
to
write
a
song?
Do
I
want
to
repair
a
broken
relationship?
And
once
we
help
people
figure
out
what
they
want
to
do,
then
we
help
support
them
in
literally
taking
small
sweet
steps
towards
their
dreams.
Um,
and
in
that
way,
you
know,
we're
all
the
that
that's
what
it
really
means
to
be,
I
think,
a
um
kind
of
a
hero
through
our
own
journey.
It's
just
what
are
we
creating
in
the
world
out
of
what's
hard?

SPEAKER_02
13:25

And

Why Music Heals In Dark Times

SPEAKER_02
13:27

how
does
music
heal
us
during
our
darkest
times?

SPEAKER_00
13:34

I
now
have
a
nine-month-old
daughter.

SPEAKER_02
13:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
13:38

And
playing
music
for
Brielle,
I
see
the
way
that
music
is
so
deeply
connected
to
the
to
just
being
alive.
I
mean,
I
can
play
her
music,
and
when
we
get
to
the
chorus
of
a
song,
she'll
pick
up
a
rattle
and
start
shaking
it
along,
and
her
body
will
be
moving
and
dancing
to
the
music,
and
it
makes
her
so
happy.
So
there's
something
about
music.
I
don't
know
if
it's
spiritual,
I
don't
know
if
it's
science,
I
don't
know
what
it
is,
but
there's
something
deep
about
it
that
is
connecting,
that
is
that
brings
us
into
our
bodies,
that
makes
us
present
with
the
moment
when
we're
really
listening
and
paying
attention.
And
it
and
it's
the
vibrations,
it's
the
voice.
And
and
so
I
I
mean,
I
think
that's
I
think
it
is
healing.
Music
is
healing.
Um,
when
now
when
there's
words
attached
to
it,
when
you're
making
it,
that's
another
level
too.
It's
like
then
you're
sharing
your
something
creative
with
somebody
else,
whether
it's
a
playlist,
but
there's
something
about
being
together
and
and
sharing
music
um
that
is
part
of,
you
know,
I
can
I
go
to
a
walk
down
the
street
the
other
day,
and
there
was
a
festival
taking
place
in
the
streets,
and
it
was
one
of
these
things
where
they
have
these
silent
discos
where
you're
people
are
listening
to
music,
but
but
you
can't
hear
the
music.
They're
just
listening,
and
everyone's
bodies
are
kind
of
moving.
And
it
reminded
me
so
much
of
my
daughter.
It's
like
they're
moving
the
exact
same
way,
just
wanting
to
pulsate
their
bodies.
And
these
really
kind
of
I've
kind
of
felt
like
an
alien
looking
at
them,
but
it
was
just
wow,
look
at
how
music
just
makes
people
want
to
move
um
and
be
together.
So,
so
I
think
there's
something
in
that
in
being
together
and
slowing
down
and
connecting
and
in
and
being
present.
Um,
and
I
think
it's
the
same
thing.
It's
like
just
just
being
present
with
somebody
is
a
form
of
of
the
almost
the
same
thing,
but
that's
really
hard.
Music's
almost
easier
because
it
already
has
that
beat
that
slows
us
down,
that
connects
us.
The
next
level
is
like,
how
do
we
learn
just
to
be
with
each
other
in
silence
and
appreciate
the
silence?
That's
hard
too.

SPEAKER_02
15:54

Well,
and
it
is
something
too
because
uh
with
my
mom
having
dementia,
we
had
a
music
therapist
come
in
for
her
during
when
she
had
hospice.
And
it
was
amazing
because
the
first
time
the
music
therapist
came
in
the
next
day,
the
caregivers
were
like
couldn't
wait
to
tell
me
that
my
mom
went
to
a
party.
She
she
wasn't
leaving
the
room,
she
went
to
the
party,
she
was
talking.
And
then
the
one
time
I
was
there
with
the
music
therapist,
you
know,
she
didn't
know
who
I
was,
but
she
remembered
the
words
to
my
girl.

SPEAKER_00
16:24

Isn't
that
amazing?
Yes.
What
was
that
like?

SPEAKER_02
16:27

It
was
like
sitting
there
and
she
just
is
singing
along,
you
know,
to
him.
But
my
mom
always
loved
music,
she
always
connected
very
deeply
with
it.
And
she
had
certain
songs
that
she
loved
to
play
uh
with
it
because
you
know,
she'd
say
certain
artists
knew
pain,
that's
why
she
loved
him
so
much
and
stuff.

SPEAKER_00
16:44

I
mean,
that's
the
thing.
And
what
when
there's
artists
no
pain,
I
mean,
what
what
your
mom
is
saying,
what
is
she
really
saying
is
like
that
I
connect
to
that
person.
That
person
was
able
to
express
something
in
my
heart
that
connects
with
me,
and
I
feel
less
alone.
I
feel
connected,
and
music
has
that
that
property.
I've
played
music
now,
I've
had
the
opportunity
to
play
music
for
people
at
the
end
of
their
life
on
a
number
of
occasions,
and
it
really
is
so
special.
You
can
see
the
way
that
music
impacts
that
person.
It
can
impact
the
other
people
in
the
room.
Like
now
you
have
this
memory
of
your
mom
and
music.
You
can
now
listen
to
that
song,
My
Girl,
and
and
feel
something
and
remember
what
that
song
means.
And
it's
a
way
of
of
connecting
uh
that
that
heals
all
of
us.

SPEAKER_02
17:31

Well,
and
she
was
she
was
a
big
Barry
Manilo
fan.
And
so
she
she
had
a
lot
of
she
had
years
before
she
had
told
me
what
song
she
wanted
played
at
the
service.
So,
like
that
last
week
uh
before
she
died,
I
played
all
the
a
lot
of
the
artists
and
songs
that
I
knew
she
likes.
And
you
know,
I
sh
I
knew
she
heard
it,
you
know,
she
was
in
the
bed
and
everything.
She
wasn't
really
moving,
but
I
knew
she
heard
it,
and
I
always
know
that
brought
her
happiness.
And
I
always
think
too,
sometimes
I'm
driving
along
and
I'll
be
like
uh
listening
to
an
older
station,
and
then
boom,
they'll
be
like,
there'll
be
a
Barry
Manilow
song
come
on,
or
there'll
be
like
she
loved
Gary
Lewis
and
the
Playboys
from
the
60s,
you
know.
So
that
song
will
come
on,
and
I'll
be
like,
okay,
I
know
she's
saying
hi
to
me,
you
know.

SPEAKER_00
18:15

Yeah,
I
mean,
that's
so
that's
so
special.
It's
so
it's
so
special.
And
um,
I
think
what
what
you
did
by
by
finding
out
and
somehow
the
two
of
you
connecting
around
what
songs
meant
something
to
her,
where
you
could
then
use
those
songs
at
that
time
is
is
really
special.
There's
a
lot
of
research
to
show
that
hearing
is
in
fact
the
last
sound
to
go,
uh
the
last
sense
sense
to
go
before
we
die.
And
so
it
makes
you
think,
yeah,
what
what
do
I
want
to
hear?
Um,
what
does
someone
like
care
about?
What
would
be
the
nice
sound
to
say
goodbye
with?

SPEAKER_02
18:52

Yeah,
exactly.
Um,
you
know,
I
and
I
I
knew
I
always
knew
what
music
she
liked
and
everything.
So
that's
why
I
figured
that
I'd
play
that
for
her
because
I've
heard
the
research
that
it's
um
the
last
of
the
hearing
to
go,
you
know,
for
that
for
her.
But
yeah,
I
I
think
that
music
helps
so
much
with
the
creativity.
Or
if
somebody
likes
to
paint
or
draw,
like
let
them
let
them
do
all
that,
you
know,
to
help.

SPEAKER_00
19:19

Let's
make
some
music.
Let's
it's
like,
yeah,
people
are
afraid,
you
know,
in
our
culture,
this
is
it's
like
we're
so
judgmental
as
a
culture
that
of
course
it's
scary
to
be
creative
or
to
think
I
can
draw,
but
just
a
doodle,
yeah,
just
get
your
hand
moving,
get
your
body
shaking,
get
your
voice
singing,
like
any
of
those
things.
If
we
can
do
it
and
not
judge
ourselves
and
have
some
self-compassion,
um
just
trying
that
is
so
freeing.

SPEAKER_02
19:49

Well,
and
too,
even
when
you're,
you
know,
you're
in
that
caregiving
mode,
sometimes,
like
for
me,
uh
it
was
as
simple
as
you
know,
coloring,
you
know,
even
doing
a
coloring
app,
it
like
calmed
my
mind
down,
you
know,
to
just
focus
on
these
little
things.
And
it's
being
creative,
you
know,
for
whatever
it
is
to
help
with
that.

End Of Life Festivals And The Summit

SPEAKER_02
20:08

So
I
I
noticed
on
your
website
for
the
reimagine,
uh,
you
have
reimagine
end
of
life
festival.
And
is
that
do
I
understand
that
right?

SPEAKER_00
20:16

Yeah,
okay.
Yeah,
we
used
we
haven't
hosted
one
for
a
bit.
Okay.
Um,
but
the
way
our
organization
started
is
we
hosted
these
large-scale
citywide
festivals
called
Reimagine
End
of
Life.
Okay.
Um,
where
we
would
have
hunt
literally
like
300
events
across
the
city
in
a
week.
Um,
and
they
would
be
at
um
comedy
clubs,
okay,
but
also
hospitals
and
in
graveyards
and
in
uh
in
this,
in
even
in
a
city
hall,
um,
or
or
in
art
galleries.
It
was
like
we
tried
to
make
sure
that
there
were
events
in
all
the
public
spaces,
private
spaces
that
made
up
a
city
where
people
could
get
together
and
somehow
create
a
space
that
related
to
this
the
people
that
were
there
uh
to
open
up
dialogue
about
these
hard
topics,
um,
but
in
ways
that
were
often
creative
and
could
bring
people
in
and
meet
people
where
they
were
at.
Maybe
it's
laughing
about
it
in
comedy,
maybe
it's
a
conversation
with
nurses
in
the
hospital,
like
I
said,
maybe
it's
dancing
in
City
Hall
uh
with
millennials
and
senior
citizens.
These
are
the
kinds
of
things
that
we
were
we
were
putting
on
together.

SPEAKER_02
21:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00
21:30

And
and
now
we
we've
gone
mostly
um
into
these
virtual
experiences
so
people
all
across
the
country
and
the
world
can
participate.
And
so
coming
up
in
on
October
15th
this
year,
we
are
we're
having
a
large
scale
summit
uh
that's
free
uh
called
Grief
in
Our
Times.
And
it's
a
place
where
we
can
explore
the
creative
uh
expression
and
uh
make
some
meaning
together.
Out
of
our
personal
pain
that
we're
all
experiencing
also
some
of
the
collective
pain
that
that
we're
all
we're
all
in.

SPEAKER_02
22:06

I
think
that's
great.
I
mean,
sometimes
I
think
people
uh
don't
always
want
to
laugh,
but
I
think
laughter's
good
with
it
because
that's
remembering
different
things
about
your
loved
one,
you
know.
And
sometimes
I
I
I
I
will
tell
stories
about
my
mom
or
other
people
tell
stories
about
her
and
that,
and
it
makes
me
laugh.
You
know,
I'm
like,
man,
she
had
she
can
come
out
with
these
lines
sometimes.
We'd
be
like,
you
know,
and
you
have
to,
and
it
but
I
feel
like
it
brings
you
comfort,
it
brings
you
closer
to
them
too,
when
you're
able
to
laugh
with
it.

SPEAKER_00
22:34

Oh,
I
mean,
I
think
laughter
is
so
important,
and
I
think
part
of
it
is
I
mean,
what
this
is
what
I've
learned
by
by
being
in
these
like
5,000
events
talking
about
death.
People
aren't
really
talking
about
death
for
very
long.
No,
that's
like
what
people
end
up
talking
about,
and
this
is
what's
so
beautiful
and
engaging
and
creative
and
life-affirming
about
them
is
that
we
end
up
people
end
up
talking
about
things
that
make
us
laugh,
things
that
make
us
feel
love,
things
that
make
us
feel
connected,
the
memories
that
we
have
of
things
in
our
past,
the
fears
that
we
have,
but
things
that
actually
are
quite
um
that
are
not
morbid
in
the
least.
They're
actually
the
the
the
most
life-giving.
And
I
think
laughter
um
is
is
one
of
those
things,
just
like
music.
It's
like
beautiful
things,
funny
things,
um,
loving
things,
joyful
things
are
all
coming
out
of
the
hardest
places.
And
so,
yeah,
we
don't
need
to
censor
ourselves
around
laughing.

SPEAKER_02
23:38

No,
because
a
lot
of
times
people,
you
had
some
really
good
stories,
and
that's
that's
what
you
want
to
remember.
You
don't
really
want
to
remember,
especially
um
when
they've
been
sick
or
even
you
know,
like
I
remember
my
mom
with
the
dementia,
but
then
I
I
also
remember
how
she
was
before
she
was
sick,
but
then
I've
also
learned
to
appreciate
the
time
I
had
with
her
in
those
moments
of
when
she
had
her,
you
know,
when
she
was
sick
with
dementia,
because
like
I
was
able
the
one
thing
that
people
with
dementia
teach
you
is
to
be
in
that
moment
because
that's
the
only
thing
they
know.

Dementia, Laughter, And Being Present

SPEAKER_00
24:13

Yeah,
yeah,
no,
that's
so
that's
so
profound.
And
and
you
know,
a
lot
of
there's
this
comedian
that
I
love
named
Chris
Garcia,
and
his
um
his
his
father
had
dementia,
and
and
a
lot
of
his
comedy
um
it's
so
sweet,
honestly,
it's
so
loving.
Uh
but
but
but
a
lot
of
it,
or
some
of
it
at
least,
is
him
talking
about
some
of
these
funny
things
and
interactions
that
happened,
you
know,
through
dementia,
um
that
that
that
that
were
different,
you
know,
his
like
how
how
what
the
remote
became
in
the
house.

SPEAKER_02
24:55

Yeah,
like
it
was
a
phone,
it
was
all
kinds
of
stuff.
And
my
my
mom
was
in
a
memory
care
uh
facility,
and
I
mean
sometimes
when
you'd
hear
two
different
residents
with
dementia
start
talking,
you
had
to
not
laugh
in
front
of
them
because
they
were
serious,
but
it
was
funny
because
you
just
you
have
to
go
with
it,
with
it,
you
know.
But
they're
in
that
moment,
and
two
minutes
later
they'll
be
talking
about
something
else,
and
you
just
gotta
follow
along
what
they're
talking
about,
you
know.

SPEAKER_00
25:23

I
mean,
his
you
share
this
story
about
how
his
dad
tried
to
reseduce
his
mom,
like
she
was
like
another,
like
she
was
another
woman,
but
he
was
like
seducing
her,
and
it
was
like
so
hilarious.

SPEAKER_02
25:35

Well,
um
yeah,
because
my
um
my
mom
didn't
know
who
my
dad
was
anymore
either.
So
it
was
like
yeah,
with
all
those
different
things
before
it.

SPEAKER_00
25:45

So
life
life
is
just
life
has
all
that,
you
know,
there's
something
maybe
it's
bittersweetness.
I
don't
know
what
that
emotion
is,
but
it's
like,
yeah,
it's
sad,
obviously,
and
painful
that
the
that
that
the
person
that
you
knew
is
and
was
functioning
in
this
other
way
is
no
longer
functioning
with
their
full
capabilities
in
the
way
that
we
knew.
And
now
there
are
these
new
ways
of
interacting.
And
it's
sad
to
to
to
miss
those
other
interactions
that
we
used
to
have,
and
that's
that's
the
grief
part.
But
yet
we
can
still
find
some
joy
in
who
we
are
right
now
in
the
present.
And
that's
what
I
hear,
you
know,
that's
what
laughter
helps
us
do
because
laughter
is
like
when
you're
laughing,
yeah.
You're
you
you
you
can't
be
it's
hard
to
be
laughing
and
not
be
not
be
present.

SPEAKER_02
26:31

That's
very
true.

Self-Compassion, Kindness, Wise Witnessing

SPEAKER_02
26:32

So,
what
are
some
other
ways
we
can
foster
more
communal
processing
processes
for
processing
grief?
Like
different
ways
we
can
do
that.

SPEAKER_00
26:41

Yeah,
I
think
I
think
there's
really
three
main
ways.
Um
the
the
first
is
um
being
self-compassionate.
Okay,
I
mean,
I
I
you
know
sometimes
when
we're
in
pain
and
we
we
if
we
get
angry
or
we
get
sad,
it's
like
maybe
you're
like,
I
don't,
I
I
should
be
feeling
something
else,
I
should
be
somewhere
else.
But
if
but
to
be
compassionate,
that
we're
not
always
going
to
show
up
our
as
our
best
selves
all
the
time,
like
that's
okay.
Um,
and
that
helps
us
um
slow
down
and
and
and
and
kind
of
not
blame
one
another
and
and
not
blame
ourselves.
And
by
treating
ourselves
with
self-compassion,
we
can
learn
more
about
self-compassion
for
others.
Um
we
already
talked
about,
so
there's
how
you
know,
self-compassion
is
about
how
we
treat
ourselves,
and
there's
how
we
treat
others
in
our
pain.
It's
like
can
we
do
acts
of
kindness?
Can
we
do
an
act
of
service
even
when
we're
in
pain?
Um,
can
we
can
we
show
up
and
and
and
try
to
be
kind
uh
somewhere
else
through
our
creative
expression
or
through
an
action
that
we
take
and
see
how
that
makes
us
feel?
Um,
and
then
and
even
in
that
vein,
sharing
your
story
is
a
form
of
an
act
of
service.
So
I
think
like
what
you're
doing
on
this
on
this
podcast,
sharing
your
story,
you
know,
I
know
it's
healing
for
all
of
us,
but
I
assume
there's
also
some
healing
for
you.

SPEAKER_02
28:07

Yeah.
Yeah,
I
learn
things
all
the
time
from
the
guests
and
that.
And
and
I
it
is
healing
in
the
sense
that
I
I
feel
comfort
in
knowing
that
um
I
feel
close
to
my
mom
and
that
my
mom
was
a
caregiver,
and
people
always
came
and
talked
to
her
about
things.
And
she
had
a
lot
of
tragedy
in
her
life.
She
had
a
lot
of
people
that
were
sick
and
things
like
that,
and
she
always
tried
to
help
them
through
grief
and
in
the
illness
and
that.
So
yeah,
I
do.
I
feel
healing
in
the
sense
that
I
know
it's
something
she
would
want
to
help
people
with
because
she
always
tried
to.

SPEAKER_00
28:40

Yeah,
and
that's
so
life-affirming.
And
it's
and
it's
and
what's
happening
is
by
what
you're
doing,
you're
you're
helping
so
many
other
people.
So
that's
there's
something
about
sharing
our
stories
that
has
that
impact.
Um,
so
that's
another
thing
we
can
do.
The
third
is
if,
say,
you're
not
in
deep
feeling
in
deep
grief
right
now,
or
even
if
you
are,
how
do
you
show
up
for
somebody
else
that's
in
pain?
Um,
so
being
a
wise
witness
to
somebody
else's
experience.
And
what
I
wise
witnessing,
I
mean,
I
mean
um
acknowledging
uh
the
state
that
they're
in,
being
able
to
sit
with
it,
be
able
to
say,
are
you,
you
know,
uh
not
shy
away
from
being
with
them
and
talking
about
the
thing
that
they're
going
through.
Because
we
the
thing
that
we
reimagined
just
ran
a
big
survey,
and
the
top
two
um
top
two
reasons
people
say
it's
hard
to
show
up
for
somebody
is
I
don't
know
what
to
say,
and
I'm
scared
I
might
say
the
wrong
thing.

SPEAKER_01
29:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00
29:38

Um,
and
maybe
there
isn't,
you
know,
no
right
thing
always
to
say,
but
it's
better
to
say
something
than
say
nothing.
It's
better
to
care
than
not
care.
So
if
we
just
tilt
toward
caring
and
toward
showing
up
and
witnessing
somebody
else
and
being
with
them
and
not
injecting
our
own
feelings,
but
just
being
with
theirs,
that's
that's
a
really
beautiful
thing
to
do.

SPEAKER_02
29:59

Exactly.
And
um
I
always
say
I
like
that
that
you
said
wise
witness.
I
like
that.
That's
a
good
one.

SPEAKER_00
30:07

What
is
that?
Tell
me
what
you
think
about
what
um
what
that
brings
up
for
you
or
like
what
what
you
like
about
it.

SPEAKER_02
30:13

I
like
it
because
you're
not
trying
to
tell
somebody
what
to
do
or
how
to
feel.
You're
trying
to
be
in
that
moment
with
that
person
and
then
also,
like
you
said,
be
wise
and
try
to
figure
out
where
they
are.
Because
sometimes
people
just
need
to
vent.
They
don't
want
you
to
fix
it.
They
just
want
you
to
listen
and
validate
what
they're
feeling,
you
know.
Maybe
they're
just
feeling
really
sad
for
a
minute,
or
maybe
they're
just
overwhelmed,
you
know,
and
they
just
want
you
to
listen.
And,
you
know,
because
I
always
find
sometimes
people
want
to
fix
it.
Oh,
we'll
do
this,
this,
or
this.
And
you're
like,
okay,
now
you've
overwhelmed
me
even
more,
you
know.

SPEAKER_00
30:51

Yeah.
And
so
I
think
that's
a
good
one.
It's
like,
do
you
want
I'm
or
you
can
say,
I'm
gonna
I'm
gonna
try,
I'm
gonna
try
just
to
listen
right
now.
If
you
want
some
advice,
I'm
happy
to
provide
some
thoughts,
but
right
now
I'm
gonna
try
just
to
listen.
How
would
that
let's
try
that?
Tell
me
what's
going
on.

SPEAKER_02
31:08

Yeah,
you
know,
and
sometimes
it's
okay
to
say,
you
know
what,
there's
nothing
that
I
can
say
that's
gonna
make
you
feel
better,
you
know,
but
I'm
here,
you
know,
and
sometimes
you
feel
like,
yeah,
you're
right,
there
isn't
anything,
but
I'm
glad
I
know
you're
here,
you
know.
Because
I
think
when
you're
grieving
and
you're
a
caregiver,
you
have
a
hard
time
asking
for
your
needs
because
you
just
you
just
feel
lost
with
things.

SPEAKER_00
31:35

And
I
think
I
appreciate
what
you
just
said.
You
said
when
you're
grieving
and
you're
a
caregiver,
it's
like
what
I'm
hearing
is
both
sides
are
are
hard.
It's
like
when
you're
when
you're
caregiving,
when
you're
in
pain,
it's
hard
to
ask
for
help.
And
when
you're
a
caregiver,
it's
hard
to
it's
hard
to
ask.
Everybody
is
is,
you
know,
we
can
get
into
this
place
of
tiptoeing
around
and
nobody's
saying
what
they
need.
It's
also
hard
to
know
what
we
need.
Exactly.
And
and
so,
and
so
being
okay
with
all
of
that
is
is
kind
of
part
of
the
challenge,
right?

SPEAKER_02
32:08

Because
everybody's
always
like,
tell
me,
you
know,
let
me
know
if
you
need
anything.
And
you're
like,
I
don't
know
what
it
is
I
need.
You
know,
I
don't
know.

SPEAKER_00
32:14

Yeah,
yeah.

SPEAKER_02
32:16

Uh
yeah,
so
it
it
it
becomes
hard,
and
like
so
it
kind
of
goes
back
to
self-compassion,
but
even
then,
sometimes
you
just
feel
so
overwhelmed
or
lost,
you're
like,
I
don't
know.
And
even
just
to
be
able
to
say,
you
know
what,
I
I
need
to
take
a
nap.
That's
what
I
need
to
do
right
now,
and
that's
hard
too.

SPEAKER_00
32:35

Yeah.
And
and
if
it
is,
but
I
think
what's
nice
about
the
taking
a
nap
thing
is
if
you
in
your
mind
can
say,
hey,
I'll
be
better
for
other
people
if
I
take
a
nap.
And
even
if
I
can
count
myself
as
a
better
person,
that
would
be
next
level,
saying,
like,
oh,
you
know,
I
can
be
better
to
myself
if
I
take
a
nap.
But
it's
sometimes
it
helps
us
in
our
brains
realize
that
some
things
that
might
seem
just
about
us
are
actually
can
be
for
others,
and
that
gives
us
permission
to
do
those
things.
Um,
and
so
yeah,
taking
a
nap
is
is
a
beautiful
act
of
service
often
in
the
area
of
our
pain
because
it
refreshes
us
and
allows
us
to
then
interact
differently
with
all
the
people
in
our
lives.
Um,
and
it's
an
act
of
self-compassion.
So
that
that's
an
act
that's
you
know,
both
self-compassionate,
but
it
can
also
be
an
act
of
of
of
um
pro-social
expression
toward
others,
because
by
caring
for
ourselves,
we
can
then
better
care
for
others.

SPEAKER_02
33:39

Exactly.
And
it's
sometimes
it's
hard
to
remember
that
when
you're
going
through
all
of
this,
you
know,
like
you
said,
with
the
self-compassion.

Where To Find Reimagine And Brad’s Music

SPEAKER_02
33:47

So
if
somebody's
interested
in
the
in
one
of
your
reimagine
events
or
your
website
or
that,
how
can
they
get
to
it?

SPEAKER_00
33:54

Sure,
yeah.
So
just
go
to
let's
reimagine.org.
Okay.
Um,
and
you'll
find
all
of
that
there,
let's
reimagine.org
or
on
the
social
channels,
let's
reimagine
uh
on
Instagram
or
on
Facebook.
Um
you
can
find
us
there.
And
then
um,
yeah,
you
can
find
my
music
at
Bradwolf
W-O-L-F-E,
Bradwolf.com,
and
you'll
hear
all
these
songs
I've
been
recently
releasing
that
are
the
that
that's
my
own
expression
of
uh
through
my
own
kind
of
journey,
um,
where
I
found
a
lot
of
healing,
and
which
I
don't
necessarily
need
to
release
to
anybody
to
find
that
healing,
but
but
again,
to
the
extent
that
it
if
anyone's
helped
or
connected
with
the
music,
um
it's
kind
of
a
way
of
all
of
us
paying
it
forward.

SPEAKER_02
34:47

Exactly.
Yeah,
so
we
will
I'll
make
sure
that
we
put
those
on
our
page
so
people
can
click
on
to
as
well
as
the
video
for
why
wait
too.
So
people
can
click
on
it.

SPEAKER_01
34:58

Thanks
so
much.

SPEAKER_02
34:59

And
I
know
you
said
you
have
an
event
coming
up
in
October,
people
can
join
in
too.

SPEAKER_00
35:04

Yeah.
Um,
that's
at
at
um
summit.lets
reimagine.com.
You'll
find
that.
We
will
I'll
share
the
link
with
you,
but
that's
gonna
be
free,
and
it's
gonna
there
could,
I
think
it'll
be
like
a
thousand
or
so
people
uh
joining
from
across
the
world.
We
have
spaces
for
you,
and
um,
you'll
meet
so
many
people,
you'll
see
so
many
people
in
a
very
low
pressure
environment.
There's
like
I
think
30
to
50
sessions
that
you
can
select
from.
Oh,
wow.
Okay,
anything
you
are
interested
in,
you'll
be
able
to
find
uh
with
with
experts
and
authors
and
musicians
and
spiritual
leaders
and
all
kinds
of
very
interesting,
compassionate
people
that
are
all
coming
together
to
try
to
create
more
kindness
um
through
the
hard
parts
of
life.

SPEAKER_02
35:47

And
we
definitely
need
more
kindness
in
this
world.
We
really
do
at
that.

SPEAKER_00
35:53

Yeah.
I
honestly
that's
what's
been
coming
up
for
me
a
lot
lately.
I
used
to
think
that
love
was
a
thing
that
we
needed,
which
I
do
think
we
do
need
love.
But
then
I
started
thinking,
man,
out
of
love,
there's
some
pretty
bad
things
that
have
happened
in
the
name
of
love.
True.
There's
there's
there's
like
revenge
in
the
name
of
love,
there's
killing
in
the
name
of
love,
but
you
can't
really
do
any
of
those
things
in
the
name
of
kindness.

SPEAKER_02
36:14

That's
very
true.

SPEAKER_00
36:15

Yes.
So
it
made
me
think
that
like
kind
grief
is
is
what's
so
vital
is
kindness
um
toward
ourselves
and
toward
others.
And
then
and
then
you
know,
the
right
kind
of
love
can
manifest
from
there.

SPEAKER_02
36:31

That
is
very,
very

Closing Thoughts And Listener Support

SPEAKER_02
36:32

true.
Well,
thank
you
so
much
for
joining
us
today,
Brad.
And
like
I
said,
we'll
have
all
the
links
on
there.
So
hopefully
you
have
had
a
very
enlightened
conversation
uh
today.
And
hopefully
you've
enjoyed
your
cup
of
coffee,
your
cup
of
tea,
or
that
glass
of
wine.
And
make
sure
you
leave
us
a
review,
subscribe
to
our
YouTube
channel,
and
we
hope
you
enjoy
another
episode
of
Betty's
Place.