Caregiver Anxiety And The Nervous System-Interview with Tauna Young

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SPEAKER_00
0:00

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your
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one.
Welcome
to
Patty's
Place,
a
place
where
we're
going
to
talk
about
grief,
dementia,
and
caregiving.
I
started
this
podcast
in
honor
of
my
mom,
Pat,
who
passed
away
from
dementia
almost
three
years
ago.
I'm
your
host,
Lisa.
So
I
wanted
this
to
be
a
place
where
you
can
learn
some
things
and
also
know
that
you
are
not
alone.
So
grab
your
cup
of
tea,
your
cup
of
coffee,
or
if
you're
having
a
really
bad
day,
that
glass
of
wine,
and
come
join
us
today.

Meet Tanya Young And Caregiving Roots

SPEAKER_00
1:00

So
today
we
are
talking
with
Tanya
Young.
She's
a
psychiatric
nurse
practitioner
who
specializes
in
an
anxiety
and
nervous
system
expert.
And
she's
also
the
founder
of
Neurovana.
And
it
specializes
in
innovative,
evidence-based
approaches
to
anxiety,
insomnia,
and
nervous
system
deregulation.
You
also
have
a
personal
connection
to
elder
care
as
well,
correct?

SPEAKER_02
1:24

Yes,
I
do.
Thank
you.
So
yeah,
my
family
Did
you
want
me
to
my
dad
started
a
uh
caregiving
company,
assisted
living
company,
uh
25
years
ago.
Oh
wow.
My
brother
runs
it.
And
then
of
course
my
own
grandma
lived
to
be
101
and
just
passed
away
just
a
couple
of
weeks
ago.

SPEAKER_00
1:46

Oh
wow.

unknown
1:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_00
1:50

Oh,
okay.
That's
though
you
have
a
lot
of
experience
then
with
elder
care
and
caregiving
and
all
of
that
for
us.
So
I
wanted
to
start
with
anxiety
because
I
feel
like
caregivers
and
anticipatory
grief
and
everything,
I
I
feel
like
we
live
in
a
state
of

Why Anxiety Starts In The Body

SPEAKER_00
2:08

anxiety.
So
how
is
anxiety
connected
to
the
body
and
the
nervous
system?
It's
not
just
the
thoughts
or
emotions.

SPEAKER_02
2:17

Yeah,
well,
I
would
even
take
it
a
step
further
and
say
that
anxiety
actually
begins
with
the
body.
Uh
and
you
know,
it
ends
with
the
thoughts
and
the
and
the
the
ways
that
you
interpret
the
physical
experience.
But
anxiety
is
very
much
a
physical
experience.
And
caregiving,
you
know,
that
that's
like
a
such
an
anxiety-provoking
uh
I
was
about
to
say
task,
but
that
doesn't
really
seem
to
fully
honor
what
it
what
actually
goes
into
caregiving.
But
um
I
think
caregivers
live
on
in
maybe
a
constant
state
of
high
alert,
and
there's
a
lot
of
uh
maybe
um
like
just
not
allowing
your
your
own
needs
when
you're
caregiving,
especially
when
it's
someone
that's
close
to
you,
like
your
like
your
mother.
Um
it's
there's
so
much
of
a
disconnect
between
the
system,
the
signals
that
your
body
and
your
nervous
system
would
be
sending
you
about
burnout
and
your
own
need
for
rest.
But
then
it's
gonna
be
there's
gonna
be
a
little
battle
with
what
what
you're
trying
to
do
to
meet
the
needs
of
the
person
that
you're
caring
for.
So
that's
gonna
be
just
a
just
an
anxious
way
of
being
for
a
long,
long
time
for
anybody.

SPEAKER_00
3:33

Definitely,
yeah.
I
would
agree
with
that,
feeling
in
that
state
of
anxiety
because
I
feel
like
you're
always
going,
okay,
here's
the
list
of
what
they
need,
and
then
okay,
what
you
need,
and
then
yeah,
you're
just
like
constantly
going
back
to
the
world.
Don't
always
line
up.
No,
they
don't.

SPEAKER_02
3:49

And
here's
my
needs,
here's
their
needs,
and
their
needs
are
always
going
to
be
changing,
you
know.
Exactly.
Dementia
changes
so
much
from
day
to
day.
Sometimes
it's
like,
oh
wow,
there
she
is.
You
know,
she's
like
herself
for
a
minute,
and
then
and
then
they're
not.
So
like
their
needs
are
changing,
and
your
needs
are
what
they
are,
and
they
very
rarely
like
you
know,
fit
together.

SPEAKER_00
4:09

Yeah,
very
rarely.
And
and
you're
just
like,
wait,
where
am
I
today
with
it?
Yeah.

Therapy Versus Nervous System Work

SPEAKER_00
4:15

So
why
do
you
think
so
many
mental
health
treatment
plans
they
they
overlook
the
nervous
system?

SPEAKER_02
4:24

Yeah,
that
that
is
very
much
that's
that's
a
great
question.
I
would
say
every
even
uh
yeah,
mental
health
is
overlooked
in
in
the
in
the
health
space
in
general,
like
when
people
are
even,
you
know,
just
being
treated
for
a
bowel
obstruction
or
you
know,
something
that
doesn't
seem
related
to
mental
health
at
all.
Mental
health
is
overlooked
from
the
physical
well-being
of
the
person,
but
then
also
the
nervous
system
piece
is
very
much
overlooked
within
the
mental
health
space.
Because
so
much
of
mental
health
treatment,
for
example,
like
the
you
know,
counseling,
which
I
I
always
recommend.
I
think
counseling
is
great,
but
that's
that's
the
top-down
approach,
which
is
a
which
is
which
is
great,
like
I
said,
but
um
the
nervous
system
is
is
bottom-up.

SPEAKER_01
5:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_02
5:12

The
you
know,
the
it
shows
up,
anxiety
shows
up
in
the
body
first.
Then
the
mind
wants
to
make
sense
of
that,
of
those
signals
that
are
coming
from
the
internal
in
alarm
systems
that
we
have
and
the
physiological
responses
to
that
that
our
bodies
are
designed
to
do.
Then
it's
then
it's
the
thoughts
that
form
at
the
end
of
that
entire
chain.
And
that's
what
we
often
are
interacting
with
is
the
thoughts.
And
that's
that's
a
good
thing
to
do
because
I
think
people
can
get
can
form
a
lot
of
thinking
patterns,
habitual
thinking
patterns
that
can
lead
to
problems
that
really
do
need
to
be
corrected.
But
it's
also
very
appropriate
to
do
bottom-up,
which
is
address
it
from
the
nervous
system
physiological
starting
point
of
it.

SPEAKER_00
6:03

That
makes
a
lot
of
sense,
actually.
And
I
think
about
my
own
self,
you
know,
because
caregiving
for
my
mom
and
mom,
actually,
caregiving
for
my
dad.
He's
had
a
lot
of
um
health
issues
and
stuff.
And
I
I
can
feel
it
in
my
body
with
it,
you
know,
different
things,
and
and
and
I'm
like,
okay,
why
am
I
feeling
this
way?
And
then
I'm
like,
oh
look,
because
I'm
trying
to
balance
all
this,
you
know.

SPEAKER_02
6:25

And
would
it
be
correct
for
me
to
assume
that
in
order
for
you
to
to
show
up
and
do
what
you've
decided
that
you
want
to
do
honorably
for
your
father,
that
it
requires
you
to
kind
of
ignore
a
lot
of
your
physical
signals.
Because
I
mean,
we
can
even
start
with
sometimes
you're
tired
and
don't
get
to
sleep
because
he
needs
you.
And
that's
just
one
of
many
physical
signals
that
caregivers
every
day
feel
feel
like
they
have
to
ignore
and
do
ignore
because
they
have
a
higher
higher
uh
value
that
they're
that
they're
altering
at
that
time.
But
the
physical
side
is
so
under
over
overlooked
and
under
understood,
misunderstood.

SPEAKER_00
7:11

Yeah,
it
really
is.
It
you
know,
it
really
it
really
is
with
that.
And
I
it
I've
been
reading
a
lot
about
the
nervous
system
as
well,
or
things
pop
up
and
I'm
like,
oh,
this
makes
sense.
These
things
are
trapped
in
my
body.
No
wonder
why
this
hurts
or
that
hurts,
or
you
know,
I
need
to
try
to
do
that.

CES Explained Vagus Nerve And Thalamus

SPEAKER_00
7:27

Now,
you
part
of
your
your
company
is
it
what
is
cranial
electrotherapy
stimulation
or
CES
and
how
does
it
actually
work?

SPEAKER_02
7:38

Yeah.
Cranial
electrotherapy
stimulation,
CES
for
short.
This
it's
just
it's
just
a
little
handheld
device,
okay?

unknown
7:46

Small.

SPEAKER_02
7:49

Um,
is
actually
FDA
cleared.
So
this
is
not
experimental.
This
is
an
actual
clinically
validated
medical
device,
kind
of
like
pacemakers,
right?
Pacemakers
are
a
medical
device.
There's
no
question
about
whether
or
not
they
work.
The
only
question
is
who
needs
one.
So,
what
this
does
is
it
okay,
so
it
has
a
little
wires
next
to
it,
okay?

SPEAKER_01
8:12

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02
8:12

And
ear
clips.
You
just
clip
them
onto
your
ears.
I
don't
even
take
off
my
earrings,
I
just
go
in
front
or
behind
them
or
between
them.
Okay.
And
you
just
turn
it
on
and
it
just
sends
this
little
teeny
tiny
electrical
signal.
It
doesn't
hurt.
It's
not
like
you
know,
electric
shock
therapy
or
something.
Something
that's
that
successful
people
can
just
use
it
on
their
own
at
home
or
wherever
they're
at.
And
it
just
sends
this
little
tiny
electrical
signal.
And
the
fact
that
it's
placed
on
the
ears
is
significant
because
it's
it's
targeting
the
auricular
branch,
so
that
means
like
ear
branch
of
the
vagus
nerve.
And
the
vagus
nerve,
as
most
people
know,
is
like
kind
of
the
rest
and
digest,
um,
the
kind
of
the
the
main
part
of
the
parasympathetic
nervous
system.
So
the
the
restful
state
is
very
much
um
impacted
by
the
vagus
nerve.
So
the
fact
that
it's
placed
on
the
ears
and
goes
it
goes
from
one
side
of
the
brain
to
the
other.

SPEAKER_01
9:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_02
9:14

And
most
of
that
signal
is
actually
going
to
the
thalamus,
which
is
also
important.
The
thalamus
is
the
part
of
the
brain
that
it's
kind
of
like
the
emotional
pacemaker.
Um,
all
sensory
information
that
is
sent
to
the
brain
is
received
and
interpreted
by
the
thalamus,
except
for
the
sense
of
smell.
What
the
thalamus
does
is
it
essentially
determines
which
of
those
sensory
signals
you
are
going
to
pay
attention
to,
like
which
ones,
how
you're
going
to
interpret
that.
Like
if
you
think
about
it,
right
now
you
can
feel
what
your
foot
feels
like
in
your
shoe.
But
the
thalamus
isn't
saying,
hey,
pay
attention
to
that.
Right?
So
it's
telling
you
of
these
in
this
information
that's
coming
in,
how
you
should
interpret
that.
Like
you
interpret
that
as
a
stressful
message
or
a
peaceful
message.
And
so
it's
very
much
involved
kind
of
the
shipping
and
receiving
part
of
the
brain
with
regard
to
how
you're
going
to
respond
to
what's
happening,
what
you're
experiencing.
So
it's
kind
of
like
the
emotional
pacemaker.
Um,
and
so
it
gives
it
a
current.
So
alpha
waves
are
what
is
dominating
in
your
brain
when
you're
in
a
calm,
relaxed
state.
So
it's
going
to
recalibrate
the
state.
So
the
way
that
that
information
is
interpreted,
it's
going
to
recalibrate
that
interpretation
to
a
peaceful
interpretation.

SPEAKER_00
10:45

That's
very
interesting.
It's
really
interesting.

SPEAKER_02
10:48

It's
yeah.
The
science,
it's
it's
uh
on
the
one
hand,
it's
not
fully
understood.
Yeah.
But
what
we
do
understand,
what
we
do
understand
is
interesting,
and
it
makes
sense
how
it
applies
into
so
many
different
things.
You
know,
it's
FDA
cleared
specifically
for
anxiety
and
insomnia.
Okay.
But
what
condition
that's
stressful
doesn't
involve
anxiety
and
insomnia
with
it,
right?
Oh,
very
true.

SPEAKER_00
11:17

Yeah.
Yeah.
Very
true.
Because
it's
like
you
could
be
exhausted
and
then
your
head
hits
the
pillow
and
then
your
brain
is
like
and
you're
like,
seriously.

SPEAKER_02
11:26

Yeah,
and
a
lot
of
times
that's
because
the
nervous
system
can't
can't
let
down.

Tired But Wired And Dysregulation

SPEAKER_00
11:30

Oh,
okay.

SPEAKER_02
11:31

You
know,
especially
with
caregiving.
It's
like
you're
exhausted,
you're
tired,
but
you
had
to
you
had
to
fight
through
that.
You
had
to
reject
that
for
so
long
that
when
you
when
you're
finally
in
a
place
where
you're
like,
okay,
now
I
can
relax,
your
body
doesn't
get
that
memo.
No,
it
doesn't.
Yeah.
So
it's
like
you
are
um
like
tired,
but
wired.
Yeah.
And
this
helps
with
that,
you
know,
wired.
Like
it
it
brings
the
the
mind
and
the
body
into
alignment
because
it's
there's
there's
a
lot
of
times
a
misalignment
where
um
your
body,
your
brain
knows
like,
hey,
we're
safe
right
now,
you
know,
and
it
is
a
good
time
to
rest.
But
the
body
doesn't
get
that
memo.
It's
already
it's
still
in
that
state
of
alert.
And
so
that
is
nervous
system
dysregulation,
is
when
there's
that
misalignment.
And
so
this
is
a
very
useful
way
to
get
the
nervous
system
regulation
back
into
alignment.

SPEAKER_00
12:35

Well,
and
I
was
just
gonna
say
that's
why
people
can
still
struggle
with
anxiety
and
insomnia,
even
if
they're
doing
therapy,
because
their
body
is
still
like
just
going,
going,
going,
going.

SPEAKER_02
12:44

Exactly.
Yeah,
which
is
why
I'm
glad
that
you
brought
up
the
nervous
system
piece.
Because
the
nervous
system,
it's
it's
got
all
of
these
internal
alarm
systems
for
good
reason.
Like
that's
very
much
a
part
of
our
ability,
you
know,
of
our
DNA
to
know
how
to
respond
to
threats.
And
if
we
didn't
have
all
of
these
physiological
systems
in
place
to
respond
to
threats
quickly,
probably
wouldn't
have
evolved
this
long.
You
know,
we
it
would
have
been
extinct
a
long
time
ago.
We
have
a
very
evolved,
highly
evolved
internal
alarm
system
that
has
served
us
well
in
many
contexts,
but
in
in
other
contexts
it
doesn't.
And
sometimes
those
alarm
systems
get
a
little
out
of
hand
and
they
work
a
little
too
well.
And
anxiety
is
a
prime
example
of
what
that
looks
like,
because
anxiety
because
of
the
fact
that
a
person's
calling
it
anxiety,
you
know
that
there's
a
misalignment,
because
anxiety
is
just
fear
that
has
been
rejected
by
the
person
who
experienced
it.
Oh,
because
if
if
I'm
like
being
attacked,
like
I
don't
know,
like
let's
say
I'm
laying
in
a
meadow
and
I
can't
relax.
Um,
you
might
say,
you
know,
I
might
say
I'm
I'm
anxious
or
something,
right?
Because
I
should
be
able
to
relax.
But
if
I
say
I'm
laying
in
a
meadow
and
I
can't
relax,
and
I
say,
well,
because
there's
a
grizzly
bear
in
this
meadow
with
me,
I
don't
call
that
anxiety.
I
call
that
I
can't
relax
because
I'm
afraid
of
this
bear,
right?
Because
it
makes
sense.
Right.
But
if
it
so
we
just
call
it
fear
when
it
makes
sense.
When
it
doesn't
make
sense,
we
reject
it.
We're
like,
no,
we're
not,
we're
not
doing
that
feeling.
But
the
nerve,
the
body
doesn't
know
the
difference
between
an
actual
threat
where
you
are
in
fact
in
danger,
and
times
when
it
when
it
isn't
in
alignment
and
doesn't
make
sense,
the
body
doesn't
know
the
difference
there.
And
so
when
it
doesn't
make
sense
to
the
person
who
experiences
it,
they
reject
it.
But
the
body,
because
it
doesn't
know
the
difference,
it's
just
gonna
send
that
signal
harder.
So
that's
anxiety.

SPEAKER_00
14:57

And
that's
the
difference.
And
as
a
caregiver,
you're
always
in
fear
with
the
anxiety
because
it's
like
one
minute,
oh,
they
seem
like
they're
having
a
good
day.
And
then
the
next
day
you're
like,
oh,
we're
back
in
the
ER
here.
Like
now
what?
You
know,
so
you're
you're
constantly
in
that
fear,
even
if
you're
even
if
you
don't
say
it,
even
if
you
don't
think
about
it,
it
it
does
force
you
because
you
know
at
some
point
the
end
will
be
there
at
some
point
if
somebody's
that
sick,
you
know.

SPEAKER_02
15:26

Well,
and
not
only
that,
but
a
lot
of
times
caregivers
are
kind
of
in
a
position
where
they
really
don't
have
any
choice
but
to
form
an
ineffective
relationship
with
their
body
because
you
have
to
reject
so
many
of
your
own
physical
needs
that
your
body
kind
of
starts
to
lose
lose
trust
in
you.
And
so
even
when
you
say,
hey,
body,
we
can
relax
now,
it
doesn't
believe
you
because
you
were
taking
care
of
that
other
person,
but
but
not
yourself.
And
I
don't
say
that
in
a
way
that's
meant
to
like
scold
the
caregiver
because
the
caregiver
has
chosen
to
do
that
because
they
have
you
know
there's
a
lot
of
different
reasons
why
people
do
that.
They
feel
they
feel
called
to
do
that
or
they
feel
a
responsibility
or
a
duty,
and
that's
a
very
noble
thing
to
do.
It
does
sometimes
lead
to
an
ineffective
relationship
between
the
person
and
and
their
body,
and
their
body
sometimes
it
takes
time
for
their
body
to
be
able
to
um
trust
the
signals,
the
the
intellectual
information
that
the
person
is
is
sending
to
it
or
trying
to.

SPEAKER_00
16:32

So
how
can
so
this
is
one
way,
like
how
can
a
caregiver
try
to
get
their
body
a
little
bit
more
in
sync
so
that
they
can
feel
better
while
they're
trying
to
take
care
of
other
people?

SPEAKER_02
16:45

Yeah,
well,
I
mean,
there
I
think
there's
a
lot
to
that
because
I
think
you
know,
some
caregivers
are
like,
yeah,
I'd
love
to,
I'd
love
to
do
self-care,
but
they
often
are
in
a
position
where
there
isn't
any
time
left
for
them.
Right,
you
know,
maybe
they've
got
a
full-time
job
and
then
their
other
full-time
job
is
taking
care
of
mom
or
dad
or
whoever.
Um,
but
a
great,
I
mean,
CES
is
of
course
a
great
way
to
do
that,
um,
because
CES
is
going
to
put
your
brain
into
that
calm
state.
It's
going
to
put,
it's
going
to
stimulate
the
alpha
waves
in
your
brain,
which
is
this
the
brain
state
associated
with
rest.
It's
like
an
awake,
restful
state.
So
it
that's
a
lot
of
times
why
I'm
actually
prescribing
this
for
people,
is
because
it
we
need
to
train
the
brain
to
become
more
familiar
with
that
state,
first
of
all,
and
then
more
familiar
with
knowing
how
to
go
there.
So,
I
mean,
that's
why
I
that
exact
reason
is
why
I'm
often
recommending
this
and
why
I
recommend
actually
a
loading
phase
for
people.

SPEAKER_01
17:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02
17:54

Where
they
use
it
frequently
for
the
first
month.

unknown
17:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_02
17:58

Use
it
twice
a
day,
every
day,
because
then
their
brain
is
going
to
form
that
new
skill
that
sometimes,
because
it's
been
so
long,
that
that
nervous
system
has
been
able
to
actually
stay
in
that
calm
state,
that
it
trains
them
to
actually,
like
I
said,
become
familiar
with
it
and
know
how
to
go
there.
And
so
by
doing
it
frequently
for
like
a
month,
then
after
that
month,
that
person
is
usually
able
just
it
just
uh
able
to
access
calm
a
lot
more
a
lot
more
easily
because
their
brain,
um,
you
know,
they
say
like
it's
a
nice
place
to
visit,
but
I
I
wouldn't
want
to
live
there.
Well
how
to
actually
live
there,
how
to
make
that
their
new
normal,
their
new
default
mode
setting.

SPEAKER_00
18:40

And
then
that
probably
also
helps
too,
the
caregiver,
if
they
can
get
to
calm,
they
probably
other
things
in
their
body
they
could
either
start
to
be
like,
oh,
this
might
clear
up
or
might
be
like,
oh
wait,
I
need
to
go
get
this
checked
out
for
me,
type
of
a
thing
for
it.

SPEAKER_02
18:55

Yeah,
you
know,
I
like
if
if
a
person
who
is
like
trying
to
relearn
the
skill
of
relaxing,
um,
if
a
lot
of
people
will
use
it
to
just
kind
of
unwind
at
the
at
the
end
of
the
day,
or
even
you
know,
at
the
end
of,
I've
seen
it
be
used
at
the
end
of
like
major
athletic
competitions
or
something
where
any
anything,
whether
it's
caregiving
or
you
know,
big
athletics
or
stressful
day
at
work,
where
there's
times
where
it's
like
the
the
person
just
has
a
hard
time
coming
down.
Um,
it
by
using
this
during
those
times,
um
it
makes
that
that
resting
time
a
lot
more,
you're
gonna
get
more
out
of
that
restful
time
because
your
your
brain
is
actually
going
to
be
able
to
experience
an
actual
truly
restful
state,
which
will
actually
make
that
rest
more
restorative.
So
it
can
deepen
uh
a
restful
time,
a
time
that
a
person
has
to
devote
to
rest,
or
even
deepen
um
like
a
medit
a
meditation
time.
Just
it
just
makes
the
restful
time
more
um
impactful
and
restorative.
And
then
in
turn
you
have
a
little
more
energy
to
get
all
the
things
done
that
you
need
to
get
done
as
a
caregiver
with
the
Yeah,
I've
actually
I'm
glad
you
mentioned
that
because
I
actually
have
seen
many
times
people
say
that
they
just
feel
like
they
have
more
energy
because
the
restful
times
are
actually
restorative.
They
actually
do
get
to
rest.
Their
bodies
and
their
nervous
systems
actually
do
get
to
spend
that
time
that
they've
devoted
to
rest
in
a
restful
state.
And
for
a
lot
of
people,
they
they
don't
get
to
do
that,
they
don't
know
how
to
do
that,
their
bodies
don't
know
how
to
do
it.

Misconceptions Panic And Fear Signals

SPEAKER_00
20:42

So,
what
do
you
think
are
the
biggest
misconceptions
people
have
about
anxiety
and
nervous
system
deregulation?

SPEAKER_02
20:50

Well,
if
one
thing
I
think
that
it's
a
character
flaw,
um,
or
that
it's
like
you
know,
obviously
it
it's
not.
Um
I
think
the
the
the
the
fact
that
it's
a
physical
experience
is
very
is
very
misunderstood,
a
common
misconception.
I,
you
know,
I'm
a
I'm
a
nurse
practitioner.
Um
I
never
intended
on
specializing
in
psychiatry,
to
be
honest.
I
thought
I'd
end
up
like
maybe
working
in
an
ER
or
an
urgent
care.
So
when
I
was
um
in
grad
school
and
I
was
working
in
a
primary
care
office,
um,
there's
one
woman
that
I
saw
that
that
experience
really
stuck
with
me.
She
came
in
thinking
that
she
was
having
um
some
type
of
cardiac
events
going
on.
Okay.
And
I
asked
her
all
the
questions
that
she
asked,
like
what
makes
it
better,
worse,
like
just
getting
to
know
more
about
how
she
was
experiencing
it
in
what
circumstances.
And
I
asked
her
if
she
happened
to
have
um
a
history
of
anxiety.
And
she
was
like,
Oh,
no,
no,
no,
this
is
not
mental,
this
is
physical.
And
I
said,
Oh,
I
know.
I
know
it
is.
Anxiety
is
is
a
very,
very
physical
experience.
Um,
and
that
like
she
really
just
embodied
a
misconception
about
anxiety
or
even
just
about
emotions
in
general.
Emotions
are
usually
they
usually
start
in
the
body
and
then
they
they
become
a
a
mental
a
mental
message
or
a
thought.
But
that's
that's
down
the
line
of
it.
It
actually
begins
in
the
body.

SPEAKER_00
22:27

And
and
I
would
believe
that.
I
well
I
do,
because
I've
had
panic
attacks,
but
like
with
all
this
my
in
my
dad
in
these
last
few
months,
like
I
literally
woke
up
three
times
in
the
middle
of
the
night.
And
two
of
the
times
I
like
shot
up
in
the
middle
of
the
night.
I
I
can't
tell
you
what
I
was
dreaming
about
or
whatever,
but
like
I
felt
it
in
my
body.
For
a
second,
I
was
like,
am
I
having
a
heart
attack?
And
I'm
like,
you
know
what?
This
is
a
panic
attack.
I
I
gotta
calm
down.
But
I
was
so
my
whole
my
body
was
just,
you
know,
I
felt,
you
know,
I
felt
that
my
heart
pounding
and
you
know,
like
I
almost
felt
nauseous
and
then
cold
and
everything.
I
mean,
I
finally
was
able
to
calm
down,
but
I
was
like,
this
is
crazy.
Like,
you
know.

SPEAKER_02
23:07

Yeah,
that's
really
interesting.
You
know,
that's
something
that
we
see
a
lot
of
times
in
people
with
PTSD,
also,
where
the
person's
body
actually
forms
like
a
bias
against
relaxation,
where
it's
like,
oh
no,
we
were
just
relaxing.
That
means
I'm
in
danger,
or
that
means
something
bad
is
happening,
where
they
actually
experience
the
experience
of
relaxing
as
its
own
threat.
Oh,
okay.
It's
not
okay
to
relax.
Okay.
If
you
just
noticed
you're
relaxing,
that
means
there's
something
wrong.

SPEAKER_00
23:38

Oh,
that's
very
interesting.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02
23:40

You
know,
it's
like
it
was
like
your
your
body
was
like,
oh
no,
we
were
sleeping.
Uh-oh.
Yeah.
Right?
And
that
happens
a
lot
with
PTSD.
Um
caregiving,
especially
when
we're
talking
about
like
the
24-hour
situation
where
the
person
you're
caring
for
is
in
your
is
in
your
home,
where
you
just
your
your
body
kind
of
forms,
like
I
said,
a
bias
against
the
experience
of
relaxing
being
interpreted
as
its
own
threat.
Like
relax
relaxation
means
that
you're
not
safe,
or
that
something
bad
is
gonna
happen.

SPEAKER_00
24:14

That
makes
sense.
That
makes
a
lot
actually
a
lot
of
sense
to
me.

SPEAKER_02
24:17

Yeah,
it's
really
interesting
to
hear
the
way
that
you
described
the
the
lived
experience.
Yeah.
You
know,
like
nothing
was
going
wrong,
you're
sleeping,
yeah,
and
all
of
a
sudden
you
just
shut
up
as
if
as
if
there
was
a
fire,
but
there's
no
fire.
And
that
was
that's
a
prime
example
of
nervous
system
dysregulation.

SPEAKER_00
24:36

Oh
yeah,
I
definitely
have
it.

SPEAKER_02
24:38

Yeah,
you're
you're
like
your
mind
knew
that
hey,
there's
there's
no
fire.
Right.
It's
okay
to
sleep,
but
your
body
was
like,
I
don't
buy
it,
not
buying
it.

SPEAKER_00
24:46

Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
and
and
the
first
time
it
happened,
it
was
like
two
days
later
my
dad
fell.

SPEAKER_02
24:52

And
it
just
yeah,
and
I
was
like,
okay,
but
yeah,
it
it
just
Yeah,
and
then
and
then
that
it's
like
your
body
says,
see,
see,
yeah,
see,
it's
not
okay
to
relax.
Exactly,
yeah.
Yeah,
and
then
when
you
even,
I'm
sure
for
a
lot
of
people
that
there's
even
like
you
get
those
other
judgmental
parts,
you
know,
of
yourself
that
it's
like
you
feel
guilty,
like,
oh,
you
know,
a
better
daughter
would
have
been
awake
watching
him,
you
know,
like
you
kind
of
feel
like
f
feel
those
guilty
things,
and
then
that
your
body
gets
that
memo,
gets
that
message
too,
and
it
just
creates
just
this
uh
ineffective
relationship
between
your
own
physical
experiences,
your
own
physical
needs,
and
the
needs
of
your
desire,
like
your
your
your
higher
values
too,
to
meet
certain
duties
and
it's
some
certain
expressions
of
love
that
you
want
to
do
for
your
for
your
parents.
And
then
the
nervous
system
is
kind
of
caught
in
the
middle
there,
and
it's
like,
what
am
I
supposed
to
do?
You
know,
like
sometimes
you
tell
me
to
rest,
sometimes
you
tell
me
not
to,
even
though
we
want
to.
And
the
nervous
system's
like
kind
of
you
know,
scrambling
around
not
knowing
what
to
do
and
not
knowing
whether
to
believe
anything
that
you're
telling
it
at
the
same
time.

SPEAKER_00
26:09

Yes.
I
I
I
completely
understand
what
you're
saying.
It
makes
a
lot
of
sense.

From Clinician Skeptic To Neurovana Founder

SPEAKER_00
26:14

So,
how
did
you,
as
a
nurse
practitioner,
how
did
you
go
from
being
a
skeptical
clinician
to
the
founder
of
Neurovana
com?
Neurovana.

SPEAKER_02
26:24

Yeah.
Well,
so
I'm
you
know,
I'm
I'm
a
nurse
practitioner
specializing
in
psychiatry.
I've
been
doing
it
for
um,
I'm
in
my
seventh
year.
And
I
never
expected
to
even
love
psychiatry,
never
expected
to
uh
specialize
in
psychiatry,
but
uh
I
mean
I
feel
like
I
sound
like
I'm
an
innocent
victim,
seduced
me,
but
a
victim
of
the
best
kind.
You
know,
I
never
it
just
I
never
saw
it
coming.
So,
you
know,
fast
forward
maybe
a
year
and
a
half
ago,
um,
you
know,
I've
I
at
that
point
I
had
helped
thousands
of
people,
thousands
of
people
throughout
my
career
with
anxiety,
uh,
depression,
insomnia,
like
all
the
things
that
you
see
in
psychiatry.
And
then
I
learned
that
there's
a
a
medical
device
that
helps
with
anxiety
and
insomnia,
and
that
none
of
my
colleagues
knew
about,
I
didn't
know
about,
none
of
my
patients
knew
about
it.

SPEAKER_01
27:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_02
27:21

And
so
I
looked
into
the
research
and
I
was
impressed
with
what
I
saw,
you
know,
but
I
was
also
confused
because
like,
well,
if
that
if
it's
that
good,
then
why
wouldn't
I
know
about
it?
Right,
right.
So
I
looked
into
it
some
more
and
even
looked
up
like
real
users
and
and
um
ended
up
getting
some
and
and
trying
them
with
my
patients.
And
and
I
was
amazed,
amazed
at
how
well
it
works.
It
I
mean,
and
and
even
the
research
is
amazing,
like
it
outperforms
SSRIs.
You
know,
SSRIs
are
you
know,
selective
serotonin
reuptake
inhibitors,
those
are
the
main
medications
that
are
prescribed
for
anxiety
and
depression.
It
outperforms
some
of
the
most
commonly
used
sleep
aids,
like
Tamaspam.
It
outperforms
that
has
a
higher
success
rate
than
these
meds.
Okay,
and
it
didn't
make
sense
that
it
wasn't
more
well
utilized
in
the
psychiatric
space.
And
I'm
like,
where
have
we
been
on
this
psychiatric
community?
And
then,
but
but
I
had
to
ask
myself
that
same
question,
Patty,
because
I
am
this
like
a
part
of
the
psychiatric
community.
So
um
I
started
offering
it
to
my
patients,
and
it's
it's
never
ceases
to
amaze
me.
It
continues
to
surprise
me
at
how
well
it
works.
So
I
started
Nirvana
as
a
way
to
just
make
this
a
more
well-utilized
part
of
the
mental
health
toolkit.
Like
I
said,
this
has
had
FDA
clearance,
but
it's
had
FDA
clearance
since
1978.
Oh,
wow.
And
so
I
know
that's
the
thing.
I
was
like,
what?
Yeah,
and
I
and
it
also
ticks
me
off
too,
because
you
know,
I'm
I'm
a
parent.
I
raised
four
children,
and
some
of
my
children
have
anxiety.
And
I
think
back,
I
was
like,
okay,
so
this
has
been
available
since
1978.
I
started
having
kids
in
1995,
and
I'm
thinking
about
gosh,
how
much
better
my
my
nights,
my
evenings
could
have
been
with
my
daughter.
I
had
a
daughter
who's
extremely
anxious,
and
especially
at
night,
she
was
anxious.
And
oh
my
goodness,
if
I
hadn't
thing
is
now
she's
29
and
she
loves
it,
she
uses
it,
and
she
still
gets
anxious
at
night,
and
she
uses
this,
and
it
just
chills
her
right
out.
And
I'm
like,
oh
my
gosh,
where
I
I
wish
I'd
known
about
this
when
she
was
eight.
Exactly.
I
remember
how
stressful
those
evenings
were.
Right.
So
um,
you
know,
now
it's
like
people
do
people
need
to
know
about
it.
Yeah.
Um,
and
because
it
just
hasn't
had
the
same,
you
know,
marketing
dollars
behind
it
as
some
of
the
pharmaceuticals,
I
think
that
probably
has
contributed
to
why
it
isn't
more
well
utilized.
Right.
Um,
you
know,
and
I
I'm
a
prescriber,
Patty.
I
prescribe
mental
health
medications
all
day
long.
I'm
happy
to
do
it.
I
am
not
anti-medication
by
any
in
any
definition.
Um
there's
more
available
than
pharmaceuticals.
Yeah.
This
and
this
works
not
only
just
as
well,
but
better
in
some
cases.
But
let's
all
the
things
that
we
don't
have
to
talk
about
with
this.
Like
when
I
prescribe
medications,
like
I
said,
all
day
long,
but
there's
things
that
I
have
to
ask
about,
have
to
ask
about
side
effects,
um,
what
else
they're
taking,
weight
gain,
sexual
side
effects,
GI
things,
are
you
uh
allergies
to
it,
how
much
you
can
take,
like
not
overdosing,
right?
Withdrawal,
like
all
of
those
things.
I
don't
have
to
have
that
conversation
with
these.
So
as
a
clinic,
as
a
clinician,
it's
it's
just
such
a
no-brainer
that,
hey,
this
should
be
it
absolutely
needs
to
be
part
of
the
mental
health
toolget
toolkit.
So
that
is
why
I,
you
know,
I
I
I
own
my
own
practice
called
Harmony
Mental
Health.
And
that
is
why
I
went
ahead
and
started
a
second
company,
Neurovana,
to
bring
this
into
a
more
well-known,
make
it
a
more
a
more
well-known
tool
in
the
mental
health
toolkit,
even
though
it's
already
been
there
for
a
long
time,
just
hasn't
people
haven't
known
about
it.

SPEAKER_00
31:22

And
your
website
is
neurovana
calm.com?

SPEAKER_02
31:27

Correct.

SPEAKER_00
31:28

And
people
can
uh
be
able
to
get
that
device
as
well
through
that.
Yes.
Before
that,
yeah.

SPEAKER_02
31:34

And
then
go
there.

SPEAKER_00
31:36

Um
with
that.
And
then
you
also
you
said
you
have
another
website
if
people
wanted
to
get
in
touch
with
you
as
a
psychiatric
nurse
practitioner.

SPEAKER_02
31:43

Oh,
yeah.
I
mean,
yeah,
so
there's
neurovana
calm.com,
but
I'm
also
on
all
the
socials
on
my
Instagram
and
Facebook
and
uh
LinkedIn.
Um
and
Neurovana
is
also
on
Instagram
and
Facebook.
Um
so
if
you
can
spell
my
name,
you
can
find
me.
It's
Tana
T-A-U-N-A
Young.
Um
easy
to
find
on
all
the
socials.

SPEAKER_00
32:06

Okay.
Yeah,
and
I
will
make
sure
that
we
have
the
neurovana.com.com
uh
on
our
website
and
that
as
well,
so
people
can
get
in
touch
with
you
and
check
this
out.
This
has
been
so
interesting.
I
think
that
we
need
to
talk
more
about
this,
especially
with
caregivers
or
in
general,
to
help
uh
deregulate
our
nervous
system
so
we
can
get,
if
nothing
else,
some
good
night
sleep
too.

SPEAKER_02
32:33

Yeah,
yeah.
Like
I
said,
it's
FDA
cleared
specifically
for
anxiety
and
insomnia.
Um
and
it's
it's
very,
very
effective
for
both.
And
um,
like
I
said,
you
know,
most
of
that
signal
goes
to
the
thalamus,
and
one
of
the
things
the
thalamus
regulates
is
sleep-wake
cycles.
Um,
but
it's
also
helpful
within
the
context
of
caregiving,
whether
we're
talking
about
caring
like
just
for
your
own
family
or
if
you're
a
professional
caregiver.
So
many
people
in
caring
professions
at
the
end
of
the
day,
they
just
have
a
really
hard
time
coming
down.
And
this,
boy,
is
it
wonderful
for
helping
a
person
calm
down.
It's
great
for
that.
And
then
the
person
can
then,
you
know,
get
that
rest
and
get
that
good
night's
rest
too.

SPEAKER_00
33:20

Oh,
for
sure.
Yeah,
I
mean,
yeah,
even
if
if
you
are
in
the
caregiving
profession,
you
see
so
much
that
it
would
affect
you
as
well,
too,
with
your
nervous
system.
Exactly.
Yeah,
you
know,
people
don't
realize
what
CNAs
and
nurses
do
all
the
time.

unknown
33:39

Oh
my
goodness.

SPEAKER_02
33:40

Yeah,
yes,
absolutely.
You
know,
I
I
used
to
be
a
nurse,
of
course.
Nurse
practitioners
always
were
a
nurse
first,
and
I
worked
in
the
hospital,
and
I
saw
I
mean
a
lot,
a
lot,
of
course.
Um,
I
also
saw
a
lot
of
dementia
and
sundowning.
Oh
boy,
you
know.
Um,
it's
it's
it's
very
difficult.
And
people
get
into
caregiving
because
they
care,
they
truly
do
care,
and
it
feels
like
a
calling
and
they
want
to
help.
Um,
but
sometimes
that
puts
it
can
make
that
person,
like
I
said,
kind
of
form
have
a
difficult,
more
of
a
complicated
relationship
with
how
they
uh
deal
with
their
own
needs.
And
that
miscalibration
kind
of
happens
accidentally
sometimes.
And
this
has
been
a
great
tool
for
recalibrating
that
relationship
and
making
it
more
effective
so
that
the
person
doesn't
get
so
burned
out.
And
you
know,
you're
gonna
get
burned
out
if
you're
not
getting
the
rest
when
you're
not
doing
the
that
work,
and
that
so
often
happens,
which
is
a
real
tragedy.

SPEAKER_00
34:49

Oh,
for
sure.
I
I
completely
understand
because
sometimes
even
when
you
do
sleep,
you
wake
up
and
you
feel
like
you
didn't
sleep.
And
it
is
important
because
you
described.
Yeah.
Yeah,
because
sometimes
some
days
you
have
to
make
so
many
different
decisions,
or
you
are
talking
to
medical
professionals
and
you
need
to
understand
what's
going
on.
And
when
you're
tired,
you
you
you
don't
think
as
clearly
to
ask
those
questions
with
that.

SPEAKER_02
35:14

Yeah,
good
point.
Yeah,
a
lot
of
times
people
don't
realize
that
um
you
actually
make
yourself
a
better
caregiver
if
you
do
take
some
time
for
yourself.

SPEAKER_00
35:28

Yeah,
which
which
is
hard,
and
it
goes
back
to
the
whole
thing
because
then
you
feel
guilty
and
everything
else
with
it.
So
this
is
something
very
easy
and
simple
that
a
caregiver
can
do
for
themselves.
Uh
yeah.

SPEAKER_02
35:40

And
you
can
take
it
with
you
anywhere.
You
know,
it's
it's
it's
portable,
handheld,
and
portable,
right?
And
it's
so
like
I've
I've
had
people
like
use
it
on
a
plane
because
they're
you
know
anxious
when
they
fly.

SPEAKER_00
35:53

Oh
yeah.

SPEAKER_02
35:54

Or
um
using
it
uh
recently,
someone
um
I
know
what
likes
went
to
like
a
jiu-jitsu
competition
in
Las
Vegas
and
had
to
fight,
like
it
was
tournament
style,
had
to
do
these
jujitsu
fights
all
day,
and
then
it's
the
end
of
the
day
and
they
they're
done
fighting,
but
they
how
are
they
gonna,
you
know,
get
their
body
to
come
down
and
rest?
Well,
they
use
this,
and
then
they're
able
to
just
bring
it
down
and
get
that
rest.
And
um
I've
just
seen
it
used
in
so
many
different
contexts
that
it's
been
very
rewarding
and
fun
for
me
to
see
that.

SPEAKER_00
36:28

And
I
could
see
where,
yeah,
I
you
could
just
it
easily
would
fit
in
your
purse
or
a
bag
because
you
never
know
when
you
might
need
it
before.

SPEAKER_02
36:35

Yeah,
and
it's
not
a
drug,
too,
because
a
lot
of
I
mean,
like
within
that
context,
like
sports,
they
do
drug
tests
and
stuff,
right?
And
and
or
there's
side
effects,
um,
you
know,
there's
a
lot
of
times
a
downside
with
medications,
and
this
isn't
a
medication.

Dementia Sundowning And Calmer Care

SPEAKER_02
36:51

Um,
but
you
know,
within
the
context
of
of
caregiving,
like
if
we
go
to
the
other
side
of
that
relationship,
which
is
we're
talking
about
in
your
case,
like
elder
care.
This
is
amazing
for
the
people
in
your
care
too,
because
the
dementia
experience
is
a
very
stressful
experience.
Yes,
it
is,
yes.
You
know,
and
anxiety
is
anxiety,
whether
we're
we're
talking
about
anxiety
caused
from
dementia
or
something
else.
And
I've
seen
it
be
amazing
for
the
people
who
have
the
dementia.
Yeah,
I
can
see
that
about
it,
you
know.
If
uh
I
mean,
I'm
gonna
make
some
assumptions
here,
but
I'm
assuming
that
you'd
rather
not
drug
them,
you
know.
You're
not
wanting
them
to
be
a
zombie
just
to
just
be
like
loopy,
and
also
that
also
increases
their
fall
risk
and
stuff.
So
this
is
something
that
it
it
doesn't,
it
doesn't
cure
their
dementia.
They're
still
gonna
have
dementia,
but
the
dementia
isn't
as
stressful
for
them.

SPEAKER_00
37:50

Yeah,
I
could
see
where
at
times
where
uh
uh
before
the
agitation
would
get
really,
really
bad,
I
could
see
where
this
might
help
calm
those
situations
with
that.

SPEAKER_02
38:01

Yes,
it's
actually,
you
know,
because
we're
talking
about
caregivers
and
we're
talking
about
the
people
that
they
care
for.
I've
actually
seen
it
be
I've
been
more
amazed
at
what
I've
seen
in
the
person
who
is
suffering
from
the
dementia
than
I
even
have
seen
it
from
from
what
it's
done
for
the
caregivers,
because
though
the
people
that
are
experiencing
the
dementia
or
the
sundowning,
it's
extremely
stressful
for
them.
It's
extremely
stressful
to
be
disoriented
and
not
know
what's
going
on,
what
you're
supposed
to
be
doing,
not
know,
am
I
45,
am
I
25?
Um,
you
know,
because
if
you're
45,
then
then
I
need
to,
why
am
I
not
at
work
right
now?
You
know,
it
can
just
be
so
stressful
for
them.
And
this
can
it,
what
I've
seen
it
do
for
them
is
make
a
person
who
normally
was
getting
really
agitated
every
night
and
you
know,
constantly
exit-seeking
and
even
becoming
um
physically
aggressive,
suddenly
not
having
any
of
those
behaviors
or
even
the
same
the
stress.
They
still
might
be
confused
and
still
not
really
know
where
they
are,
but
that
is
no
longer
it
no
longer
is
stressful
for
them,
which
allows
for
some
huge
relief
like
relief
for
the
caregiver.

unknown
39:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02
39:09

Makes
the
caregiver's
job
easier
because
that
person
isn't
constantly
stressed
out.

SPEAKER_00
39:14

Definitely,
because
there
were
many
times
where
I
I
had
to
calm
my
mom
down,
and
sometimes
it
took
over
an
hour
to
calm
her
down.

SPEAKER_02
39:21

Yeah,
or
like
you
have
to
watch
the
doors
sometimes.
Like
I
I
know
a
lot
of
people
the
reason
that
that
a
person
is
no
longer
able
to
be
cared
for
in
their
home
is
because
that
family
member
that
was
trying
just
couldn't
keep
him
safe
anymore.
They're
constantly
exit
seeking,
and
or
even
they're
getting
physically
aggressive
or
something.
And
so
what
I've
seen
CES
do
for
people
is
make
it
so
that
they
didn't
have
to
be
put
into
a
facility.
They
were
able
to
stay
in
the
home
longer.
I've
also
seen
it
be
mean
the
difference
between
someone
who
was
in
a
facility
who
they
were
gonna
have
to
put
in
memory
care,
that
they
didn't
have
to
transfer
to
memory
care
because
it
corrected
those
behaviors
that
were
gonna
make
it
necessary.
So
I've
seen
it
be
useful
in
the
elder
care
space
in
many
different
contexts
that
have
allowed
it
a
lot
of
pressure
to
be
relieved
for
the
caregivers
associated
with
that

Where To Find Tanya And Closing

SPEAKER_02
40:16

person.

SPEAKER_00
40:16

Well,
this
has
been
very
fascinating
to
me.
I
could
see
how
this
helps
with
so
many
different
things
for
it.
So
we
will
definitely
have
your
website
on
there
and
just
thank
you
so
much.
I've
learned
so
much
today.
So
you're
welcome.
Thank
you
for
having
me
as
a
guest.
Yes,
for
sure.
And
like
I
said,
we'll
have
the
website
on
there
so
people
can
check
it
out
for
themselves
as
well.
So
I
hope
you
have
enjoyed
this
episode
and
you've
learned
as
much
as
I
have
today.
So
please
join
us.
Make
sure
you
like
us
and
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