Light As Medicine-Interview with Sarah Turner

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01
0:10

Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we'll talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. I'm your host, Lisa. I named this podcast in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia about two and a half years ago. So grab your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or if you're having a really bad day, a glass of wine, and come join us today so you know you're not alone as we kind of navigate through all of these things. So today I'm very excited. Our guest is Sarah Turner. She is the founder and CEO of Sarah Thrive. It specializes in circadian biology, mitochondrial health, and photobiomodulation. Sarah explores the role of light in energy, sleep, and brain function. Welcome, Sarah.

SPEAKER_00
0:53

Thank you. Thank you. It's lovely to be here.

SPEAKER_01
0:55

Yes. So I'm really I'm very interested in this whole concept with light and that.

Light As A Missing Nutrient

SPEAKER_01
1:02

So what do you think that what are we fundamentally getting wrong about light and its role in human health today?

SPEAKER_00
1:14

Yes, I think that um light is very misunderstood and underestimated as a healthy technology. Um really, from an evolutionary point of view, we are creatures that have evolved with the sun. And because of that, our bodies are covered in light receivers, and light triggers all kinds of different um hormonal cascades, uh, all kinds of biological mechanisms are triggered by light. So the indoor lives that we're living now, and screens and cars, and indoor offices, windows, buildings, it's kind of depriving us of some of those wavelengths of light, specifically the wavelengths that we would usually see in the morning and the evening, which is the infrared light. Okay. So really, as a species now, we're very, very deficient in this light. And you can see it almost like um a vitamin deficiency. You know, if we if we're deficient in vitamin C, we start to get um sick, we start to get tired, and then eventually we have brain issues. It's the same with near-infrared light. It's it's almost a missing nutrient that we don't really know we're missing because we don't really see light that way.

SPEAKER_01
2:29

I I can understand that because I know for me on days that are cloudy and gray, I my whole emotional state is different than on a sunny day. Yeah. It's really true. So you said that the body runs on light, not just food. So what does that mean in practical terms?

SPEAKER_00
2:51

Um, in practical terms, it means that our mitochondria, which is where our body makes energy, are actually stimulated by light and we produce the energy in that way. But not only do we produce energy, we also have certain signaling molecules in our body that switch on different protocols, if you like. So, for example, healing is triggered by certain wavelengths of light. So we we really yeah, uh, it is very interesting. And things like we're gonna talk a bit about the brain, I think, because your uh podcast is all about um neurodegeneration and the brain. Uh, the brain is somewhere that's very sensitive to light, and we know that we can actually use light to have an effect on brain function, and that might be difficult for some people because we kind of think that it's dark in there, don't we? We think we have this like yeah, yeah, but actually, actually, the skull is quite transparent to this wavelength of light, it will pass right through.

SPEAKER_01
3:53

Oh, that's very interesting.

Circadian Disruption And Mood Effects

SPEAKER_01
3:55

So, so as you were saying about the screens and stuff and the like indoor lights, so that disrupts our circadian biology. So, what's like the what are the consequences of that?

SPEAKER_00
4:07

Yeah, so we're talking two things here. So, circadian biology is how your body knows daytime and nighttime, and we do that mainly through sensors in our eyes. We have very specific cells in our eyes that act almost like clocks. So it tells our body what time of day, and because the body wants to do things at different times of the day. Um, but actually, we also have light receivers over our whole body that aren't um looking at day and night cycles. So it's not the circadian rhythm that we're looking at. It's as I say, more things like healing mechanisms, energy production. You said yourself mood, you know, when it's sunny, your body is that's because our body creates chemicals that make us feel good when we're out in the sun, because our bodies want they want us to be out in the sun, you know. Our bodies are helping us to kind of get that healing uh wavelength from the sun by creating molecules almost like opiates, actually, that make us glad. That we feel so good when we're out in the sun or when we're off. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01
5:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00
5:13

So it's not idiot.

SPEAKER_01
5:15

Yeah, because there's the difference. Uh, you know, for me, winter is hard, you know, because with the snow and it's cold, and I always say like I can handle a cold, sunny day better than like a dark, snowy day uh for

What Parkinson’s Trials Revealed

SPEAKER_01
5:32

that. So you've worked on clinical trial trials and neurodegeneration. So, what did you see firsthand that changed how you think about brain health?

SPEAKER_00
5:43

Yeah, that's an excellent question. Because really, that was the turning point for me in my career. Because I spent the first part of my career as in pharmaceuticals looking at um device development, like how do we deliver drugs to people? And then um I moved to the States, I moved to California, I got involved in all this biohacking, which basically means kind of manipulating your environment to help your biology. And I got involved in a trial on Parkinson's disease where they were doing exactly as I've been saying, they were using this longer wavelength, this near infrared wavelength, and shining it on the head with people who had Parkinson's disease. And these were people that were fairly progressed in their illness. And I was very fortunate to be on that trial because I saw firsthand how people were beginning to have uh a change in their symptoms, a change in reaction times, a change in we did gate analysis, but probably more important, a change in the way they related to their partners and caregivers. So for me, that was um very, very interesting that something as simple as shining light with that with a helmet could have this effect and change really the quality of people's lives. So that was a turning point when I started doing it in all seriousness to develop these devices to enable people to have access to this technology.

SPEAKER_01
7:06

That is very fascinating. It really is. It really is uh with that. So is that why you think that people can feel exhausted despite that they might eat well and they exercise? Like, how does the mitochondria fit into all that?

SPEAKER_00
7:24

Yeah, for sure. I think that may be exactly what's happening because if you don't get any kind of natural light, especially at sunrise and sunset, you are missing something. Your body's missing that signal. And the mitochondria are where your body makes energy. So people may remember from school that they're the powerhouse of the cell, you know, that's what we call the mitochondria. But but they're responsible for making one molecule called ATP, which drives all processes in the body. So if you don't have enough of this molecule, you simply don't have enough energy to do things. So your body will adjust, you know, it will give you enough energy to do the bare minimum, but maybe not enough to kind of be enthusiastic, be motivated, you know, want to go to the gym, because your body will conserve the energy if you don't have enough. So I think that could exactly be what happens to people who, you know, they think they're being healthy by eating well and maybe going to bed early, maybe doing all the things. But if you don't have the right light, um, you know, you're really not getting that energy. So it is for some people a crucial missing piece of that health puzzle.

Red Light Devices And Use Cases

SPEAKER_01
8:37

So would you suggest, like, I know they have like sunlights or different kinds of lights? Are those helpful for people to have in their houses?

SPEAKER_00
8:45

Yeah, there's all kinds of ways you can deliver light. Okay. So the light that I've been talking about, like this red light, that's something that you can have specific red light therapy devices. So they normally have, they normally look red, but actually it's invisible to the human eye. So normally the devices have a red uh bulb or LED and a near infrared, which is invisible. If you want to have it for brain, though, you do need to put it actually on the head. Because although I said, you know, the skull is quite transparent, you still do need to have the light very, very close. So most devices that are targeting the brain, my device included, it goes flush against the head. So it's either a helmet or mine is like um a headband, uh, and that what that's what delivers the the light. Those other lights you can get, like the ones which are like bright white, like they're called SAD lamps. People may know that term, sad, seasonal effective disorder. They contain all different wavelengths. So them they're more for mood, whereas the red light ones, near infrared, are more for neurodegeneration, you know, if you really want to target that.

SPEAKER_01
9:55

And on your website, it's Sarah Thrive.com. So people can purchase the infrared, like like you said, and if you see on her on your website, it's the band. So that can help with many different things. I see on here, like you have a questionnaire like uh even with your gut or focusing or your nervous

Gut Brain Link And Inflammation

SPEAKER_01
10:18

system. So who would who would this be for this?

SPEAKER_00
10:22

Yeah, so when when I was on the study that I mentioned to you, um I noticed people with um some of these conditions also it normally starts in the gut. Okay. Most people have some kind of low-level gut issue. If you have a gut issue, it means you've got inflammation in your body. That then tends to lead to brain issues. So one of the things that I thought was missing from these devices is to have a simple panel that goes over your gut. I can show you actually, I've got one here. Okay. This one something very simple that can go over your gut. Okay. Then when you're doing the head one, which is this one, simply on your head, you kind of get an enhanced effect because you heal the gut, you reduce inflammation, and then you have a brain effect. But some people suffer more with their gut, some people suffer more with brain system uh symptoms. It just depends on where your own weak spots are. Because all of us kind of have weak links due to lifestyle or maybe genetics, or you know, maybe we've had injuries. So some people have gut issues that that affect them the most, some people have brain issues. They're very interconnected. But the questionnaire just helps people to identify do you want to focus on your gut issues or your brain issues? And uh really it can help anyone who wants to get a better brain. So wherever your brain is at, you can have a better, I mean, really, that's most people.

SPEAKER_01
11:49

Yeah, most people, yeah, yeah. They would like they because you you worry about um, you know, all the different the neurodegenerate diseases that happen with it. So as someone who does have gut issues, so so that would be helpful too, because it the gut really does there's that gut-brain uh connection that a lot of people don't realize how they're connected. It's almost like your gut is like your second brain, right?

SPEAKER_00
12:20

Yes, maybe even your first brain. You know, in the embryo develops, you know, your gut is develop your gut forms, and then you form the tube, and then your brain forms. Your gut contains a lot of neural tissue, brain tissue in your gut.

SPEAKER_01
12:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
12:35

Most of your neurotransmitters, like your how your brain can be, they're made in your gut. Oh so the gut is hugely important for brain function, and they're connected via something called the vagus nerve, which is this nerve that that connects the brain, actually, the heart and the gut. But it forms a communication between them. And it's very interesting that there are a lot more signals going from your gut to your brain than going the other way around. So your gut is kind of telling your brain uh, you know, what's going on, what the environment's like, you know, how the person is, do you have inflammation? You know, are metabolites leaking out into your blood? And then your brain also is sending a signal down about what's going on in your brain. But there is definitely this communication, and the more that you can look after your gut, heal your gut, the better um you're going to protect yourself from any kind of brain condition later on.

SPEAKER_01
13:32

That's very, very interesting. That is very interesting uh with that.

Photobiomodulation Explained Simply

SPEAKER_01
13:38

So I also have to ask you, what is photobiomodulation?

SPEAKER_00
13:44

I know it's such a mouthful word, isn't it? Yeah. I know it's silly. Photobiomodulation. Well, if we break it down, photo just means light. Okay. Uh, you know, photon. I think most people know photon, photo is light. Bio is just your biology, and then modulation. So basically, it just means to change your your biology with light. And the reason it's such a big word is because the technology has changed slightly. It used to be called laser therapy, and you know, much, much simpler. But now we've changed it to photobiomodulation because lasers and LEDs can both be used, so we want to have an umbrella term, and this is something that's kind of makes the sciencey people feel sciencey by using this long photobiomodulation, but it is just a fancy word for light therapy, really.

SPEAKER_01
14:35

Okay, so why is it gaining more attention in both the clinical and wellness settings?

SPEAKER_00
14:41

It's gaining more attention because it works. Okay, I think really the bottom line, it works and it's not toxic and it's not invasive, and it's easy, and you can do it at home. And so I think all of those things, plus for a lot of these conditions, we don't have a pharmaceutical intervention at the moment. We don't have a drug that's working, so we need to look for alternatives. So, research is starting to show that for a lot of these illnesses, light therapy can help. And I'm not saying it's a cure, and certainly the FDA don't say it's a cure, but it can it can help in conjunction with lifestyle changes. So I think it's getting a lot of attention. Also, sports people are using it. I think maybe you've probably seen the face masks for beauty, you know. People are yeah, people are starting to use those a lot because what happens when you shine light onto the onto skin, it forms collagen and um elastin, and those two uh proteins together can make the face, you know, they can help with wrinkles and crow's feet and kind of plump out the face. But actually, those are also very important proteins for the structure of the body, you know, they're also important for general wellness. So I think although that red light therapy is mainly popular in cosmetics and uh face masks, is also very, very good for health. So I think it's a good thing that people are kind of getting introduced to it because then people are very they feel very safe putting it on their face because they've already done it with a face mask.

SPEAKER_01
16:17

That is very

Dementia Support Via Light And Sleep

SPEAKER_01
16:18

interesting. So let's say if somebody with, say, dementia were to put on the the one on the brain, like how would that help them?

SPEAKER_00
16:28

So people who already have dementia, their mitochondria are struggling a bit because they um have some deterioration, probably have some inflammation. So what you're doing is you're giving your giving the brain, one, you're giving the brain energy, but also what happens when um the cell receives the light is the area around the blood vessels open. So you have more oxygenated blood going to the brain, you have more waste products going, more energy and more oxygen also mean you sleep better. You know, people with these conditions have trouble sleeping, and that has a knock-on effect because we need sleep. We need sleep to power our brains, and we also need sleep to flush our brains. There's lots that goes on during sleep. So people who are already having symptoms they may find that things like their memory improves or their mood improves, has a knock-on effect of one, their sleep improving, but two, just having more oxygen and energy in their brain.

SPEAKER_01
17:30

I didn't think about that. Yeah, the oxygen in the brain is that would be very helpful. Like um, at least help them a little bit, at least maybe have a few more moments of um lucid lucidity or just a few more good moments as opposed to bad moments, probably.

SPEAKER_00
17:46

Yeah, we're not making a claim that this is going to kind of have a radical health on some a radical change on somebody who is fairly long in their illness. Right. I've seen people that have been able to have um a different relationship, for example, with the people around them. You know, people have started to in in the trial that I saw, you know, maybe have an opinion about what they're doing, maybe able to put on their own clothes, you know, maybe be able to participate in a family of they wouldn't have before. They're the wonderful things that you kind of see in these trials and that are being reported to me. It's just about, yeah, having that little bit extra resilience, a little bit extra capacity, um, a little bit more improved sleep, a little bit more improved mood. So, yes, these are not huge changes, but to the individual, they can be very, very significant.

SPEAKER_01
18:44

Oh, definitely. It definitely. Those little things can be a big deal, even um, from the caregiver point of view. It can be, you know, help them along a little bit, just have a few more, like you said, better days, or they're able to pick out their own their own clothes today, they care today about that, or or you know, they they know who you are in that moment or or or that uh for it.

Sunrise Habits And Cutting Blue Light

SPEAKER_01
19:07

So if somebody wanted to just improve their energy and sleep starting today, what you think would be the simplest changes they could make with light?

SPEAKER_00
19:19

Well, the simplest thing that people can do, and it seems very simple, but it seems to be a big arse for people, is to go outside at sunrise. Oh that's when you get that is when you get the long wave light. And if you can go outside and stand bare feet on the ground, even better, because this combination of they call it grounding, it it it sounds kind of unscientific and woo-woo, but it's really not, you know, there is a lot of science. There is a I promise there's a lot of science behind it. You're actually, you know, putting your feet on the ground, you're actually um electrostatic charges dispersing, you actually pick electrons up from the ground, looking at sunrise, you're getting that signal as you spoke about circadian biology, but you're also getting those long-wave red lights. You know, you're getting near infrared. That's probably the best thing that people can do if they can somehow change their lives or working lives or family lives to at least see a few minutes of sunrise. Now, if that is difficult, you can use these red light technology devices because that will also get put back that sunlight that you're missing. So I always say to people, you don't need this expensive tech if you can just kind of get outside and do that. If you live in an apartment block, just open the window and stick your head out. You know, do whatever you need to do. Right. That light in the morning, don't look at your phone first. Because if you look at your phone and you look at blue light, that's it. Your body already thinks it's the middle of the day. You know, our bodies are very sensitive. Because blue light signals to us that it's the middle of the day. And what do we do in the middle of the day as mammals? We're kind of forage for food and we're very active. So if people look at their phones as soon as they wake up, you're telling your body it's the middle of the day, and you miss out on all of the healing part. And if you do it in the evening, you're telling your body it's the middle of the day, and then everybody wonders why they're they're kind of snacking and hungry. Because we obviously we don't forage anymore, but we can certainly go in the fridge and start to have a little rummage because that's that's what we're telling our bodies by looking at this blue light technology. We're telling our bodies it's time to eat, it's time to be active and doing things. So looking at technology at the wrong time of day can be very disruptive. I'm not saying to everyone get rid of their phones. I know that's what all I'm saying is before you look at technology, put your head out the window or stand on the ground or see the sun, and then in the evenings, try as much as possible a few hours before bed to phase out the tech, maybe have a red. Lamp on, maybe read instead, maybe listen to a book instead of looking at something on the phone. There's lots of ways we can kind of limit that technology. You can put a red filter on, maybe if you really, really see your phone. But there are ways that we can modulate our light environment to make it more healthy for us.

SPEAKER_01
22:20

And that probably is. Yeah. I I, you know, we don't think about it, but I I when I start to read about sleep and things like that, they all say that, you know, uh stop looking at your phones, your iPads, all of that a few hours before, so your body can kind of start to wind down with it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00
22:39

Yeah. So that you're not telling your body it's the middle of the day because your body responds, even though you're unaware of it, your body is getting ready to do things in the middle of the day. And then you people wonder that they can't sleep, but it's because your body's running a different thinking, well, why would I sleep? It's the middle of the day. You know, it's because that's what you've told your body by looking at the phone. That there are a lot of apps, and if people have got an iPhone, you can put a red night filter on. Oh, okay. You can put it, you can even go as far as to wear blue blocking glasses because it's the blue light you don't want to see. So you can wear glasses that block out blue light.

SPEAKER_01
23:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
23:18

As well. There are things you can do to mitigate, but I think if you asked me for the one thing, which was the original question, I would always say sunrise, is that if you can just see sunrise or at least see natural light before technology, already you're setting yourself up to have a better day.

SPEAKER_01
23:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
23:37

From a biology.

SPEAKER_01
23:38

Well, yes, but that's important. So if somebody yes, if somebody was interested in getting the red light uh technology that you have, so they go to the website, what would they do?

SPEAKER_00
23:51

And if they're interested in purchasing everything's on there, they can purchase direct from the website. I ship to every single country uh worldwide. Um, and my team can answer questions and so can I. So it's Sarah Thrive, like you say, but it's C-E-R-A, like brain, like cerebral. Oh, okay. But my name's my name's Sarah. So I'm Sarah at Sarah Thrive. Um, or if people want to go to info at Sarah Thrive, we're always happy to answer any of these questions. And yeah, people can then um, if they want to get the device, they can get it straight from the website.

SPEAKER_01
24:28

Okay. Yeah, this has been very, very interesting as well. That so red light is good, blue light not so much.

SPEAKER_00
24:35

Blue light makes you think you're not at the wrong time. Yeah, it's okay in the middle of the day, we need blue light. Right.

SPEAKER_01
24:42

Uh well what does so blue light makes you think that you're during the day, uh like midday for it.

SPEAKER_00
24:49

So that would yeah, so blue light is great. It switches on our dopamine, it makes us want to do things, it makes us active. You know, it's it's good for your appetite. You know, blue light is a good, it's good at the right time, but you don't want to be kind of having a good appetite and be all active, you know, when you're just about to go to bed. So kind of do things at the right time. So yeah, blue light is is not something to be avoided, but just try not to do it at the kind of the extremes of the day.

SPEAKER_01
25:22

This is and that's a it's a hard one to do because people are so we're all myself included, we're all addicted to our phones, right? We see everybody. Yeah, you start, you get down that rabbit hole, you start watching these silly things, and next thing you know, an hour has passed.

SPEAKER_00
25:36

For sure. It's the it's the entire planet, I think. I don't think everybody's kind of watching cat videos, but we just kind of need to get some moderation and kind of just be just be aware of of how much you're using the phone, even simple things like if you can arrange your room so that your desk is next to the window, it's better, you know? And instead take a break and look out the window every now and then, you know, try to do things where as much as possible you're getting screen breaks, but you're also going outside. I I do a lot of business meetings, but I try and arrange them all in a group so I can walk. You know, I walk and do them. You know, there are little things that you can adjust your life so you're outside a little bit more. Just you know, I'm not talking about we can't go back to well, we could go back to caveman days, but that would take a bigger but we can make small modifications to our lifestyles that probably would have, you know, cumulatively it can have a very big effect later on in life. Because, you know, these things are just very, very small effects daily, but if you add it up, you know, potentially that can have a very big effect on how you progress through your life and your health.

Agency In Health And Closing Notes

SPEAKER_01
26:56

And you do you talk about agency and wellness and aging. So what so what does that look like?

SPEAKER_00
27:03

Yeah, so for me, agency is very important. What I mean by that is kind of having some kind of self-sovereignty. Because I think we we kind of defer to a doctor or we defer to an influencer, you know, we're kind of like very ready to kind of, oh well, my doctor's told me to take this tablet, or you know, this is the latest thing for doing that, instead of really understanding our own bodies and kind of trying these different things. You know, things like we talked about grounding, and I said, you know, it's a little bit woo-woo, this thing about standing. But actually, if you do it every day for like a month, you can tell for yourself if it's good for you or not. You know, I think agency is more about listening to your own body, doing your own research, you know, not just following the crowd. And something like light therapy, it helps you because one, you don't you maybe if you're taking a pharmaceutical or a drug, maybe you can kind of reduce that a little bit because this these technologies can help, but also it helps you have a bit more brain power, maybe a little bit more thinking space, so that you can make good choices for yourself. So, agency is is what I mean by that is how do you make good choices for yourself that are going to benefit you later on? And how do you do things that are for you specifically and not just generic advice or not something that an influencer or someone in a authority figure is telling you to do? Because I think we live in a world right now where it's very again, it's very, very difficult. We're bombarded, aren't we, with people, with information. We need to have discernment, and the only way to do that is to kind of trust ourselves. So we need to have a little bit more of our own self-sovereignty there in health.

SPEAKER_01
28:59

I would agree with that. Yeah, that you definitely have to kind of learn and listen to your body with that. And I I would agree that the light therapy helps a lot. Like I said, for me, I notice it quite often. Yeah. So for that, this has been very, very interesting. This whole conversation. Uh, I think there's a lot. I I believe in all of your research. I think there's a lot to it with for it. So it's Sarah Thrive with the C, C-E-R-A-Thrive.com. So people can check it out and hopefully see which red light therapy might help them, your gut and your brain together.

SPEAKER_00
29:40

Sure, like I say, and any questions, uh I love questions, so uh very happy to answer those. But yes, thank you for having me on. It is an interesting topic because I think it's something that people don't think about so much. You know, we think about exercise and food, we don't think so much about life.

SPEAKER_01
29:57

No, and we should because it's all it's all connected, it really is for it. And it is something so simple, like you said, just go out during sunrise. It's as simple as that so far. That's it for it. So well, thank you so much for joining us, and all of your information will be uh connected with ours so people can check it out for it. So hopefully you enjoyed your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or if you were having that really bad day, your glass of wine, and hopefully you will check all this out. And make sure you leave us a review, subscribe to our YouTube channel as well, and join us for another edition of Patty's Place.