Words That Save Lives-Interview with Lisa Sugarman

Meet Lisa Sugarman

SPEAKER_01

0:14

Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we'll talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. Uh my name is Lisa. I'm the host. I am doing this podcast in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia about two years ago. So pull up your cup of tea, your cup of coffee, or if you're having a really bad day, your glass of wine, and let's talk today. So today I'm welcoming, we have another Lisa on here, Lisa Sugarman. She is an author, a nationally syndicated columnist, a three-time survivor of suicide loss, a storyteller with the National Alliance on Mental Illness, a crisis counselor with the Trevor Project, and a mental health advocate. So thank you for joining us today. Oh, thanks for having me. So um yeah, yeah, you're you're um, I was reading your bio. It's very interesting. You've you've done a lot of different things.

Why Sharing Your Story Helps

SPEAKER_00

1:01

I have done a lot of different things. And it's it's kind of funny to me now because I I didn't start out with a purpose, with an intentional purpose behind anything, aside from just being a mental health advocate and sharing my story. And one thing led to another, as you know, I'm sure. Yes. And another and another. And not only did it take me in just such unexpected places, but it also somehow jives together. Everything somehow fits together under this umbrella, this ecosystem, whatever you want to call it, of work that I'm doing. So everything kind of always somehow touches something else that I'm doing, which which I love, which happened just very organically.

SPEAKER_01

1:43

And that's usually the best when it kind of just all comes together like that. Uh I I noticed, and and I agree with this. So I just want you to elaborate a little bit. What's the importance of sharing your story?

SPEAKER_00

1:55

Well, I mean, for me, it's it's two parts. For me, sharing my story was cathartic. It was a way to, I guess, better accept the reality of my story, because I'm sure you and I will chat more in depth about the fact that I had two different stories in my past relating to losing my father. And I've I've had to really do a lot of unlearning and relearning what actually happened, what the reason was behind my father's death. And so sharing my story for me is something that just helps me to better integrate that reality, I guess is a good way of saying it, to to accept it. And then, and also to just sharing it for the benefit of other people who might see themselves in your story, in a part of your story, or recognize a piece of it or a part of it that somehow relates back to them and they feel a little validated or they feel seen or a little less alone. So for me, those are the reasons, the two main reasons why I just keep sharing.

Learning The Truth Decades Later

SPEAKER_01

3:03

And I would agree with that because I I've noticed too when I share my story and I talk with other people, whether they had the exact same experience as me or something similar, you do feel validated and you don't feel so alone. Like you're like, I can do this with it. You want to tell us a little bit about your story about uh how did you learn about your father's suicide?

SPEAKER_00

3:26

So I I guess it's it's probably best to give you a little bit of context. I lost him when I was 10 years old.

SPEAKER_01

3:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

3:34

To what I was told was a heart attack. He was a very, very healthy man, aside from the fact that he smoked like everybody else did back in the 70s. But he was super healthy, very joyful. There were no signs or red flags that anything was wrong with him emotionally. He had a great marriage with my mom. I'm an only child. He was my best friend in the world, and he just suddenly passed away of a heart attack, which, as a 10-year-old kid, is obviously traumatic and devastating. But it was even my 10-year-old brain could understand the fact that my dad's heart stopped working and I understood what a heart attack was as much as I needed to. So it was never anything that I questioned. There was no need to question it. And I lived with that for 35 years. I went off to college, got married, had kids, had my own family. And I think I was married 20 years and had kids who were well into their teens by the time I very, very unexpectedly found out the truth about his suicide. I just I bumped into a cousin I hadn't seen in a long time. We started catching up and talking, and the conversation just took a really strange turn. She made a comment that I was really was not expecting her to make. That there was no real context for it. It was just kind of a random thought about whether my kids had the same kind of mental illness that my father had. I had no idea what she was talking about. So I immediately asked my mom about it a day or two later, and that's when everything came out. And and I've been, I guess, processing that ever since. He never really stopped processing that. But it just in that moment, it changed everything for me. It rewrote everything for me, and it most definitely put me on a very, very different path than I was on before.

SPEAKER_01

5:25

I could understand that definitely. Uh, when you learn different things, like for myself, learning when my mom had uh dementia and stuff, you just end up going down this different path because you you want to learn more about it and understand it and process it with it. That had to be hard though, because it's almost like you were re-grieving him then in a done in a different way.

SPEAKER_00

5:47

Oh, 1000%. I I always say it that way, to be honest. I say that I've grieved him twice, and I still continue to grieve him because we obviously never stop grieving the people that we love, nor should we. But it's been such a such a different experience each time. I mean, once as a child, once as an adult, once as a heart attack that's beyond anyone's control, once as a suicide, which was very much in my father's control. So it it just shifted a lot of belief systems for me, especially around mental illness and around suicide not being a selfish act, which was just my own personal belief for no reason. No one gave it to me. It just was part of me. And that changed completely when I found out about the truth.

Why Language Around Suicide Matters

SPEAKER_01

6:40

And a lot of people, I've heard that before, a lot of people say that um in regards to suicide. You you mentioned that you don't think we should we should stop saying committed suicide. Why is that?

SPEAKER_00

6:51

I believe we should stop saying it because words matter and language matters, and the way that we all talk about these issues, whether it be mental health or depression or anxiety or mental illness or parenting, right? And any of the things that we may talk about, the words that we use to describe what we're talking about, that that helps us all form, in some cases, stigmas or impressions or understandings or beliefs around those things. And when you use a word like committed and you attach it to a word like suicide, the word committed can have a really negative connotation. You think committed a sin or committed a crime, and so it really almost automatically stereotypes the person who ended their life. And what we don't stop to think enough about is that when someone is in that kind of pain and makes that kind of a decision, they're doing it because they can't handle the pain anymore. They just want it to stop. They're not being selfish, they just want the pain to stop, and that's the only way they still have agency over themselves. So when we start changing the way we talk about it and say something like died by suicide or ended their life or suicided, it gives that person dignity. And it it doesn't perpetuate that stereotype and that stigma. So it's it's not, and it isn't just me who believes that, it's very much a collective philosophy now within the mental health space. So I'm just doing what I can in my own little little space in the world to to push that along and and make it stick.

SPEAKER_01

8:30

I I never thought about it like that, but it's very true. They to give them dignity with that because you forget and for somebody who to for them to get to that point, the pain must be so unbearable for them and and give them that dignity that I think that's very important. It it's to me, it's similar with dementia. Give them, give them the dignity, you know, that of what they're going through. You know, they're sick and it it it really isn't any different mental illness, uh whether it's in that physical illness, just give that person the dignity the dignity that they deserve with it. Right.

SPEAKER_00

9:03

I mean, they're like you just said, they're all illnesses. We would never fault someone for dying of a heart attack or having cancer or having Alzheimer's. I mean, first of all, I I want to just say I'm so sorry about your mom.

SPEAKER_01

9:15

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_00

9:16

And I just lost my mother-in-law to dementia and Alzheimer's about two months ago. So I I feel you for sure.

Why Suicide Grief Feels Different

SPEAKER_01

9:26

Yes. Yeah, it's uh it's a difficult, uh, difficult disease with it. Um, I've I've always heard, and I don't know if this is true though, they always say that the grief of suicide is the hardest grief. Would you agree with that? Or is it grief is just grief?

SPEAKER_00

9:45

Well, I I think I would agree with both of those things. I think both of those things are true. Grief is grief. Any kind of grief is traumatic and hard and painful and infinite. It it doesn't end. But what I would say about suicide grief is that it's it's unusual. It's nuanced, it's different than someone dying in a car crash or having a heart attack, because there are layers to it that don't exist when someone dies in a different way, when when someone dies of an illness or an accident. This is something that's unique because you have so many different factors, like you have the why. People are constantly asking why if they don't know. And a lot of people don't. I mean, my father in my case left a very, very brief note. So we did know it was a suicide for sure. But there were no answers to the question of why in that note. It was more just I can't go on, I love you, and I'm sorry. But there was no real explanation. So there's the why, there's the what if, there's constantly the what if, what could I have said, what could I have done, what didn't I see or notice? And then there's the guilt. There's so much guilt that can be attached to it, also relating to the why didn't I see the signs or or why wasn't I paying closer attention? And then there's a whole stigma factor. None of those things are found with with traditional grief and loss when when you lose a grandparent who's passed away and they're 90 years old and they've lived a full life and they die in their sleep. No one's questioning that. We may not be happy about it, we may be grieving it deeply, but we're not asking what if or stigmatizing it or or being guilty about it. So that's what makes it different. And it's just it's a very, very unique and heavy kind of grief that you know it's a club nobody wants to be a part of, and there are so many of us. It's a staggering number. There are over 94 million people a year who are impacted by the loss of somebody to suicide. That's a huge club part of it that is.

It’s Okay Not To Be Okay

SPEAKER_01

12:03

That is a really huge club to be in. Yeah. And and yeah, people don't like to talk about it uh with it. And I think that we need to talk more about all of it. I you say I see a question here that says, why is it okay not to be okay? I love that question.

SPEAKER_00

12:24

Well, that's become such a catchphrase now, but I think it's such a beautiful one. It's okay because this illusion of being perfect and having it all together and not being affected by life around you or stress or drama is totally unrealistic. It's it doesn't exist, this myth of of being okay and having to soldier on and having to bury your real feelings and not show what's really kind of happening behind the curtain. It's it's unrealistic, number one. And number two, it's damaging. It hurts us when we feel like we have to perform and we have to be on and we have to be at our best all the time, whether it's work or at home, with friends, with family, the this whole notion of optics, it drives me absolutely nuts because people get so twisted around it because it becomes more important for people to appear okay than to actually be okay. And we shouldn't be living like that. We can't live like that. We have we have to acknowledge the fact that life is just is just an endless circuit of ups, downs, ebbs, flows, highs, lows, call them whatever you want. But it's all mixed in there. And to ignore the bad parts or the hard parts, it just does everybody a disservice. It just is hard on us as people dealing with it. And I think it's it's high, it's hard as a collectivist kind of society that's supposed to be out there looking after each other and helping each other and acknowledging what is really going on with the people around us. We can't do that if we're afraid to say we're not okay.

SPEAKER_01

14:16

I would I would agree with that. It's hard to say, you know, people like, how are you? And you always just go, I'm fine, I'm okay. And I find that I appreciate the people that I can say, no, I'm really not okay. Today's a rough day, and they understand with it. Because you can't always talk to everybody the same way when it comes to grief or or your mental illness with it.

SPEAKER_00

14:37

Or you're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_01

14:38

Yeah.

Holding Space Without Fixing

SPEAKER_00

14:39

Not everybody, not everybody has the capacity for it, and that's okay. Holding space for someone is ultimately an easy thing to do, but not for everybody. It's not a comfortable thing for everybody to do, but we have to be able to do that. A lot of people just don't want to burden other people with whatever's going on or whatever's not okay, because a lot of people can't handle that. So it's like you said, you kind of have to pick and choose and know where safe spaces are and create those spaces for yourself and lean into them when you need to, because not everyone has that capacity, but I feel like it's something we all need to be better about learning how to do.

SPEAKER_01

15:29

I would agree with that. And too, sometimes I feel like I think it's just natural that people want to like fix it for you. And sometimes you don't want that person to fix it, you just want them to listen, you know, validate what you're feeling, and then you're like, okay, wait, I could do this or that. And sometimes for me, sometimes it feels overwhelming when people start telling me, Well, do this or do that. And you're just like, wait, I don't know. You know, I'm just trying to figure out what I'm feeling, you know. And I I think sometimes that could compound somebody when they're feeling anxiety or depression too. Like maybe they're not not, I don't want to say not worthy, but like they just feel over even more overwhelmed, even maybe even more depressed with it when they Yeah, well, that's that's I think the case for a lot of people who maybe just need to get something kind of off their brain, offload it out of their head, just say it out loud, hear themselves say it, maybe just to be seen and heard, and like you said, validated.

SPEAKER_00

16:26

That's that's I think those are the kind of the founding principles of holding space or are really just allowing someone to do those things. And and it's hard because we all have that inclination to want to jump in and offer a solution and fix it. And you really can't. Sometimes the best thing that any of us can really do is just sit there, whether whether you're a parent or a spouse or a friend or you're dealing with someone who's grieving, just let them cycle through what they have to cycle through and just be there to receive it.

The Help Hub Origin Story

SPEAKER_01

16:57

Exactly. And that kind of leads me to so you created uh it's called the health hub with it. So can you tell us how you came to uh the origin of the help help hub?

SPEAKER_00

17:11

Yep, the help hub is actually still very much a work in progress, even though it's it's been up and running now for probably a good year and a half. It, like everything else, was very organic. I never intended for it to be what it is now. The way that it really started was just through my work as a crisis counselor with the Trevor Project. And if people don't know what the Trevor Project is, it's the largest LGBTQ crisis and support hotline geared for at-risk youth ages 13 to 24. And we've been around for about 27 years. And it's a hotline very similar to 988, where we try and help anyone with any kind of emotional crisis. Certainly suicide prevention is a big, big focus of the work that we do and giving people support and resources and a lot of holding space. And I've been on the lifelines for over four years now. And one of the things that was really striking to me was the fact that people are all dealing with the same things. Like we all deal with loss and grief and depression and mental illness and dysregulation and family life and drama and stress. And you know, we deal with all of these things, but depending on who we are, what community we might come from, ethnicity, religion, race, we may deal with those things in different ways. We have unique needs based on where we come from. And I was noticing that it didn't seem like there was a place out there. There's some incredible resources out there in the world, incredible platforms that offer some really, really specific kinds of help, in particular mental health resources, tools, and that sort of thing. But I didn't really notice anything that was very specific to unique communities in one place. You have them all in different places, but not under one roof. So I started just, I think more of as a hobby than anything else, was just accumulating sites and platforms and resources that I would find along the way, or I would find when I was on crisis lifelines helping other people. And I would put them on my website, which was not the help hub. It was just LisaSugarman.com. It's where my work was, it's where people could find what I do. And I had a resources page. And I did this for a long, long time. And it got very, very cumbersome and long, and the list was just infinite and it had no structure. And finally I just realized that that was the most important part of my website. It wasn't the work that I was doing necessarily. It were the they were the resources that I had for people. So I really started breaking them all down and realized that they really needed to be in unique categories, but all under the same roof. And that's how the idea for it was really born. And then I just took my time and really was intentional about the categories. We've we've got, I think at this point we have 18 different categories. So if you're someone in the LGBTQ community, or you're a veteran, or you're elderly, or you're a parent with teens, or maybe you're part of the AAPI community, or the BIPOC community, or so many other communities out there, Latinx, for instance, that that needs specific things. Now, when you go onto the Help Hub, there's a grid and you can click on the category that matches you and your community. And you can find resources that are tailored to you and that community and tools that are tailored to you and that community. And it's just grown from there. It's it's just grown from there with an expansion of a big toolkit and resources.

What To Do If Someone Is Suicidal

SPEAKER_01

20:59

And I did notice that because I was on there uh yesterday and I did like how it was set up because it was very easy. It was like, oh, elderly, veteran, you know, and it was like, oh, okay, and you could click on it, and then I saw uh I really liked how you had it broken down with the toolkits that which are free and people can download them, and it gave you a lot of good information with that. Because I I know sometimes people know there's resources out there, but they don't know where to find them. And so that's that's helpful to at least start because sometimes you just need that place. Like, where do I start to find things to help people and stuff like that? So it is the helphub, uh, is it dot com or is it it's actually thehelphub.co. Okay. So we will put that on there. So people should definitely check it out. Um, I also wanted to ask, too, um, with it. So, what do you do if you find out someone is suicidal? Like what can somebody do?

SPEAKER_00

21:58

Well, it's funny you speak about The help hub and about tools, that that is one of the tools that I have on here. It's it's a PDF that someone can can print or put on their phone that has the language to use if someone is not okay, because it's hard to know what to say. It's scary.

SPEAKER_01

22:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

22:14

If you've if you know someone you care about isn't okay and you're seeing signs, or maybe they've they've said it outright, the most important thing to do is to talk directly to them about it. And don't don't worry about using the word suicide. That's actually a word you need to use in that kind of a conversation. And I know that that scares a lot of people because it's a really, really loaded word to hear and to say. And it becomes important because when you're actually acknowledging someone's suicidal ideation for what it is, that's not going to push them closer to doing the thing. That's actually going to validate the fact that they're not okay. And it's going to show them that you're a safe place, that you understand, that you see where they're at and you know that they're struggling. So it becomes really important. One of the first things you do is to say, hey, I noticed you don't seem like yourself, or you've said that you're not okay. Are you thinking about taking your life? Like that's a question that you have to ask. And then based on what they say, if they say, no, I'm I'm really just, I don't have a plan, I'm just thinking about it, you know, I'm thinking about I'm depressed, I'm I'm anxious, then you kind of go a different route. And then you say, Well, what kind of support do you have? Who's in your life that you can talk to? What helps when you're feeling this way? Have you got a therapist? If you do, can you reach out to them? Or if it's if it's something like them needing to just sit down and have a conversation, talk to me. Tell me what's going on, tell me what's got you in this headspace and and how we can work through it. So the most important thing is really just to address it head on. And then depending on what somebody says, if they do say, Yes, I actually do have a plan, and I do know what I want to do, and I do know when I want to do it, well, then it becomes more urgent to get them some other help, like maybe convince them to call 988, either them call, or you can do what's called a third-party call, which is you call for them and say, Hey, I have a friend here, they're not okay. Can we can we all talk about this together? And that that can be a type of conversation you can have. And obviously, if somebody is telling you that they have a plan in place and they have the means to end their life, if you're with them or if you're maybe on the phone with them or messaging with them, the first thing you need to do is to say, where are you right now in relation to what you're gonna use to end your life? And if they say that they're in a room with whatever it is they're gonna use, you ask them to do you a favor while you're talking. Can you get out of that room? Can you leave the area where those things or that thing is? So those are those are some of the things that you want to be doing if you find out somebody's not okay, if they're if they're really in a bad place. The most important thing is to get them help. And you always, always have the 988 crisis lifeline uh in your pocket. It's it's always something that's available. And if if need be, uh they can actually organize an intervention if that's something that has to happen because someone is not okay and they're they're at imminent risk and you can't de-escalate them, they might have to get authorities there to ensure the person is safe. So they can help do things like that. So talking directly to somebody about what they're feeling and using words like, are you thinking of killing yourself? And then encouraging 988 and therapy, those are the three things that you want to be doing if you're in a situation like that.

SPEAKER_01

26:17

And as I was listening to you, it also makes me think too, as a caregiver, sometimes you feel so overwhelmed and you feel so alone with it. So to know that they could call the 988 number two if they if they don't know any other um resources in their area, because it can be overwhelming with it. And sometimes you do need to just talk to somebody and be like, it's okay to take care of yourself because it it's a lot when you're a caregiver.

SPEAKER_00

26:43

Uh oh, most definitely. Most definitely. I that was a big part of my life for a very long time with my own grandmother. She lived with us from the time I was 12 years old until right before I got married. And my mom single-handedly was taking care of me and taking care of her. And my grandmother was not well to begin with. So it was kind of always a little bit of a challenge. She she always had a lot of caregiving to do. And I'll tell you, you you get lost. You, your needs, your little things, your your sleep, your your hydration, your socialization, your priorities, they all get lost when you're taking care of somebody else. So if you're in that kind of situation and you need to vent about that or to get some help with strategies for how to reclaim a little bit of yourself, absolutely call 988. Absolutely call a crisis lifeline. It's not just for people who are suicidal. That's a big misconception. People think I have to be ready to end my life or know somebody who is to call. And that's absolutely untrue. Anyone with any kind of an issue, any kind of a crisis, maybe you're having a bad breakup, or maybe you're struggling because you've lost your job or you're facing homelessness or food insecurity or abuse, anything that you consider to be a crisis is worthy of a call to a lifeline.

New Book And Where To Find It

SPEAKER_01

28:19

And I think it's good for peop for us to talk about it so people know that and that it's it's okay to ask for help. It's hard sometimes, but it's okay for it. And in addition to the help hub, you also have some books too, and people can look at the books on the website as well.

SPEAKER_00

28:34

They can. I do. I'll have a few books, and I have uh a book coming out in a little over a month, actually. A new book is coming out. It's called Surviving, Finding Hope After Suicide Loss. And it's it's unique. It's unique in terms of any of the other books I've written because those are were more parenting focused books. This is now the first book I've written since I've been very much a mental health advocate and since the Help Hub was designed and launched. And it really is a combination, memoir, field guide, and toolkit because it tells the story. It tells the story of losing my dad twice and coming to terms with all the moving parts that that includes. And then it also offers resources. It also integrates the help hub into the book. So if you're someone who's reading it and you're identifying with what I've gone through, losing someone like that to suicide, or even just generalized grief and loss, it's not exclusive to suicide. It definitely touches on so much more than that. What to do, where to turn, how to get help. It's filled with mental health resources, has an entire section devoted to that. And the tools as well are in the book. So it's it's much more than just a memoir, it's a lot of different things. You can find that, you can find the other parenting books that I've written over the last 10 or 12 years. And ironically, as of yesterday, I just launched the Help Hub online shop. We're doing a lot of um inspirational clothing now and accessories with different, you know, different taglines like keep surviving or still healing or survivor. And hopefully we can spread the message in that way as well. It's kind of taking the message and the mission of the help hub, which is to help support people and keep surviving, help take it kind of off the internet and put it out into the world like that in a more physical way.

SPEAKER_01

30:45

Oh, I think that's great. I love seeing that kind of stuff. I always like to buy all that kind of stuff. Well, thank you so much. Check it out. Yeah, thank you so much for joining us. So I will it'll be on um on my page as well. So people can get to that the help hub, uh, look at your books. Are they they can purchase the books on there? Can they also purchase it on Amazon or anything like that?

SPEAKER_00

31:07

Yep, there are links. There's a book section on the help hub as well as on Amazon, anywhere books are sold, you can find them.

SPEAKER_01

31:16

Oh, okay. Well, good. So I'll put all this on here and also so thank you so much for joining us. This has been so um, I don't want to say enlightening, but it's been very informative. I've learned a lot today. So hopefully my guest, uh my uh audience has learned a lot as well. So all right. Thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_00

31:34

Yes. My pleasure, my pleasure.

SPEAKER_01

31:37

So so hopefully uh today you have enjoyed your cup of tea, your cup of coffee, or your glass of wine, and you realize you're not alone with it. And don't forget, I did start the Patti's Place Facebook group. So please join that as well. And all the information that we talked about today will also be on the page. And please join us again for another edition of Patti's Place.