Category: Podcasts

SPEAKER_01:
0:10

Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we'll talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. This podcast I started in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia about two years ago. And so I wanted to talk about things that help all of us. My name is Lisa, and today so grab your cup of tea, your cup of coffee, if it's a really bad day, grab a glass of wine, and we will get together and talk. So today we're actually gonna talk about grief. So our guest today is Lisa Wrights. She's a certified grief educator with over 40 years of experience in healthcare. Uh she brings understanding of emotional and physical healing to grief. And she has a book out that's called Navigating the Holiday. Yes. Correct. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yes. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you became a grief educator?

SPEAKER_00:
1:13

Sure. So as you said, I've been 40 years in healthcare and I'm a respiratory therapist. So I've dealt with mostly um terminal patients my entire career. Um so I was looking for something to kind of stay with that um feeling that I have compassion and empathy, and um discovered this certified grief educator and um went to school and um grabbed onto it and I'm loving it. And uh work with patients, um, sorry, work with clients and groups, um, just talking about grief, educating on grief, um, and working with a lot of caregivers and friends, um, trying to educate on grief also and handling grief with others. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:
1:59

And working with caregivers, so you talk a little bit about like the anticipatory grief. Correct. With that, because that's a difficult one to deal with, you know, when you're in the middle of it all.

SPEAKER_00:
2:11

It it definitely is, and I think a lot of people, especially if it's a family that's the caregiver, um, they don't understand and they kind of tend to get frustrated at times. Um, especially, you know, you were talking about your mom with dementia and this the show's about dementia. Um, my mother also just passed in March, and she also had dementia. And we had family members that were caregivers, and we also had nurses that came in um who were very compassionate. But um, you know, for my sister who lived with her, it got very frustrating at times because just not understanding and that repetitive motion that um dementia patients have. Um, so just trying to work with the caregivers and help them to understand. Um, one of the biggest things I found, especially with the patient themselves, is that they don't really want to be where they're at either. Um, and I think that's something as a caregiver, we don't understand that, you know, when they're repeating those stories or um they're telling you things, you know, sometimes they're not remembering that they've told you, and sometimes they're just highlights in their life that they want to relive. And kind of just sit there and listen. I try to tell the caregivers, be patient, be passionate, and just let them tell that story if they want to tell it five times. You know, it it's okay to to listen to that and try not to get too frustrated because the patient themselves is probably extremely frustrated that they don't have control over that anymore in their lives. And that can be very scary for both people.

SPEAKER_01:
3:51

Like it is, and and the other thing too, I experienced with that anticipatory grief was that I knew she was gonna get worse. And so, like, there were things that like my she she was in memory care and she uh she was able to use the phone for a while until someday she I'm not exaggerating. Sometimes she called me like between 15 and 30 times a day, you know. Sometimes she'd hang up the phone and call again. And people people would tell me, you know, the nurses, and that you don't have to answer it all the time. And I did answer it as much as I could. Obviously, if I was at work, I I couldn't all the time. But I knew in the back of my mind there was gonna come a time when she couldn't do it anymore, and I knew I was gonna miss that. And so I realized that with things like that, like and you know, like one minute they can walk really well and then the next minute they can't. Um, and and with any illness, one minute they're doing okay and the next minute they can't. And I don't think you think about that as a caregiver that that is anticipatory grief, you know. Correct. You know, correct. What do you think people don't understand about grief?

SPEAKER_00:
4:54

I think it's a uh not to say it was a taboo conversation back in the day, but I I feel like it's just something that's never spoken of. Um parents try to protect their children from it because it's taught that it's just such a sad thing. And nobody should have to deal with sadness at a young age, or no one should have to deal with sadness at certain times. Um, when there there really is other ways to get past and and have have other people learn about grief. Um, I do feel, I do feel we're all all of us in society are just undereducated on the stages. I think people are under undereducated on what grief really entails. That I found with clients, clients will come to me and they'll, you know, they'll be like, well, I lost my job and but my mom died. Well, the loss of the job is also grief. Yes, it is. You know, um, yeah, maybe maybe your your child has moved away. That also can be grief. And I think people just don't understand that. And um, it's okay to feel sadness and it's okay to go through the stages of grief when there is something like that that happens. You know, you shouldn't just push it aside. And I think as society, we're just taught that. Um, you know, so so I'm trying to educate more on the okay part, that it's okay to feel the way you do. And your life might look a little different.

SPEAKER_01:
6:26

Exactly. Yeah, people and they think that there's a timeline and there isn't with it, whether it's you lost a loved one, you lost a job, uh a major breakup in your life, you know, relationships and even pets, you know, that that's a huge. Yes, that's a huge relationship. And there isn't a timeline, and some days you might feel good, and another day you're just like uh I'm you know, crying your eyes out, or you're angry, or you're not sure. And I I agree with you, it's a taboo. People don't, oh well, you know, like, well, you you you did the funeral now, okay, you're back to work. Let's not talk about it. And you you need to feel those feelings.

SPEAKER_00:
7:04

Um Right. I do talk about that a lot with um now that you brought up work. I I think grief in the workplace is something that needs to be um taught because you're exactly right. You know, my mom passed away. I got my three days off from work, you know. Um, a couple days later, my mom was going to be buried because she was going to a veteran cemetery and they didn't have a place for her at that time. And I needed to take one more day off. And, you know, my boss was like, okay, you can take a personal day, you know, and yeah, you know, and and and that's that's exactly it. And it's just people don't understand that, and and then you're expected to come back to work fully okay. Yeah, you're not allowed to have those moments where I might need to step out of the office and cry for a half hour. Or, you know, um, and I just think um, and I'm working towards trying to create some programs for week uh for work uh workplace grief because I think there is um a need for it and an education for it.

SPEAKER_01:
8:05

I I would agree with that because even when you are back, yeah, they expect you to be at 100% and your brain just isn't. You're you're still in a fog. Like I know those first couple months when I came back, I I can't even tell you what I did. I know I probably made tons of mistakes, you know, just because I it and then all the other stuff you have to deal with too, you know, you've got the banks and the insurance companies and all that, you know, and I helped my dad with all that, but it's so much, and you're you're just not supposed to talk about it or say, I I'm having a bad day today, you know, uh with it, or I you know, I went to the store and I saw this and this upset me, or I heard this song, you know.

SPEAKER_00:
8:48

Exactly, exactly. And that's and like you were saying, that's exactly when grief pops back up. And and being it has no timeline, you could hear something a year later, yes, and it would remind you of the person who passed, or your breakup, or whatever your pet, you know, and it still brings you down, and and it's okay, you know. Um, I working with um again with caregivers or with the anticipatory grief, um, and trying to tell people, you know, just listen to what others have to say and try not to say to people that might be in grief, you know, you should be over it by now, or you know, I just don't want to hear about your loved one anymore, or oh my gosh, you never stop talking about that person. You know, maybe that person really just needs to speak of them and, you know, just sit quiet and let them speak and just say, wow, you know, I I I understand that, or yeah, I, you know, feel for you. But, you know, I think a lot of people don't know what to say when they're talking to others that are in grief.

SPEAKER_01:
9:51

I would agree with that. I I also think there's quite a loneliness to grief because because you do feel like you you can't talk for after a certain point, you're like, no, I can't say anymore about this or that. It makes other people uncomfortable. Where I I know at a certain point I told some people like I find comfort in talking about my mom, you know, that made me I wanted to talk about her and that. But yeah, a lot of people are like, oh no, you should be over it. Why are you right, you know? Um, it in I I went through grief counseling through our hospice because my mom had hospice at the end. Okay. And it was so I I tell everybody how wonderful they were because they have groups to support groups and different workshops and stuff. And the one thing everybody says is I don't feel alone because you're in this room full of all these other people that have experienced the loss and they know exactly how you feel, you know, right with it. So what are some suggestions that you you give to people who are going through grief and maybe maybe it's their first time and they just don't understand even understand what's going on with them?

SPEAKER_00:
10:56

Right. Um, so my first thing that I always tell my clients the day one is to journal. Um, journaling is a really big part of grief, I believe, for help. Um, whether you want to journal those pages, rip them up and throw them at a wall, or you want to journal lovely stories about that person and and and keep those stories. Journaling can be in many, many different ways. But if you're having a down day or you're just not sure what to do, just grab a notebook and write some things down, and it really helps to make you feel better. Um, definitely I um agree with you talking to somebody, such as you know, a grief educator like myself or going through grief counseling. Um, groups are always good, and you can find groups at almost all the churches now. They usually run grief groups. Um, with the world today and the way it is, there's so many people that are just grieving general society. That's true. So there are some just some really angry people. There are some very sad people. Um, and yeah, definitely getting someone to to walk beside you and help you through that, um, I think is a big step.

SPEAKER_01:
12:10

Oh, yeah, I I would agree with that. Yeah. And sometimes too, people don't realize you might see something on TV and that makes you think of your loved one, you know, or or you hear a story or that and you don't know why you're feeling that way uh with it. So can you maybe explain to people what's maybe the difference, what's the difference between a grief educator like yourself and a therapist?

SPEAKER_00:
12:33

So a therapist works more with you in, I want to say more like problem solving, giving you ways to um feel about yourself, where a grief educator um walks beside you and helps you educate, well, educates you and helps you to understand what you're going through at the time you're going through it. So I usually meet my clients where they are. Some are angry, some are in bargaining, some are in acceptance. Just depends how long they've been in grief. Um, and then I usually will walk beside them and give them, you know, ideas, depending on where they are at that point. Um, again, we always talk about journaling, but you know, it it could be, you know, I just did a lot of um education through the holidays. So we just got past, you know, some major, major holidays. And people not just just sitting and talking to them and and explain to them that when you're at your family's function, that it's okay if you want to step away from the table, if you don't like the conversation, or maybe you're just feeling really sad. And if it's at your house, it's okay to go upstairs. You know, don't feel like you're not allowed to step out of the situation. Um, some suggestions I gave to people was to make sure they had, I hate to quote an escape route, but a way out in case they needed to leave, you know, um, because sometimes it really can get daunting, or you think you're gonna be able to make it through a function and you get there and you just absolutely can't. And some people don't understand that. So, you know what? You just I'm not feeling well, and you step away, and it's okay to be able to do that. So, you know, as a grief educator, um, we are just educating through the stages and educating um along the way.

SPEAKER_01:
14:26

Yeah, and I think it's hard too, because sometimes you do have family members or friends that they really don't understand where you say, like, I I I need to leave or I can't do that right now. And sometimes they get mad at you and you don't know how to handle that, you know, it's hard. Right. And then you kind of grieve that relationship too, because it changes uh with that.

SPEAKER_00:
14:50

Right. And normally if if I had, you know, a client come to me, I think the difference between myself and a therapist where a therapist would be, you know, well, how did you feel after that? And how did you handle it? Where I would be more educating on that situation and maybe how we could have looked at it differently, or how are you feeling now and how are you going to move forward with that feeling? Because just like you said, that relationship may now change.

SPEAKER_01:
15:17

Yeah, it does. And it when we were talking about anticipatory grief or like the holidays or or different events, uh, I got an invitation today for a bridal shower for uh a family, and and of course I'm gonna go because it's a really important person in my life, but it it hit me because I realized this is the first type of event, bridal shower, wedding, that I'm not going with my mom. You know, and like I would out her and I always went to those things, you know, together. And I'm like, oh this could be kind of hard for me, you know.

SPEAKER_00:
15:50

Sure, even though it's gonna look different, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:
15:52

Even though I'm gonna be with family and I'm going because you know, she's an important person in my life, but it's like huh, that's that's gonna be different for me. It's a new a new thing, you know.

SPEAKER_00:
16:03

Um here's the thing the people there aren't gonna realize that it's going to be different for you.

SPEAKER_01:
16:08

No, they won't. And and they're not gonna realize. No, no, they won't. And and I know that going in, so like I have to prepare, you know, for those. But all those different types of things that you don't associate with grief all the time, and they just pop up, they just pop up, yes, they do. Yeah, and you're like, Oh, why am I feeling like this?

SPEAKER_00:
16:30

And you're like, Oh, this is why. Um even this year, um, you know, I said my mom passed in March. My mom loved to watch football. And Sundays my sister would bring my mom over and I would hang out, and you know, we'd watch the football games. And I, you know, this year looked very different for me because she was not there to watch football with me every Sunday. And I've done that for 60 years, you know, watch football with my mom and dad. Yeah, you know, but now it was different, and you know, for some people, you know, that might have been here that day, it's like it's another Sunday at Lisa's house having chili and watching football. But for me, my mom wasn't there now. So for me, it was different and it looked different and it felt different.

SPEAKER_01:
17:10

Yeah, yeah, it does. And sometimes you just don't even have the words to explain how it feels, you know, there's just like this emptiness type of a thing. And I do think it is your life is like before and after, so to speak. You know, how how you have to kind of handle it and think about things uh right with it. So you recently wrote a book.

SPEAKER_00:
17:34

I did. I did. Um, it's on grief and divorce. Okay. Um, again, another thing I didn't realize that agree, you know, when you're getting a divorce or end of a relationship has to do with grief. Yes. Because nobody tells you that. You know, I've watched many people in my life get divorced. Nobody talked about the grieving process of it, but it is a loss and it's a major loss, and it's going to reshape you and redefine you and change your life and the way it looks moving forward. Um, so it does have all the steps of grief. Um, but my book is it does each chapter talks about a different stage of grief. And then it's also my journey through my divorce. So um, you know, if it's the anger stage, I do talk about myself going through that anger stage and how I handled it and worked my way through it. And then it has some journaling pages and some questions for people to be able to answer about their own relationship. Um, you know, and then it, you know, it's about maintaining family bonds because my ex and I were able, after we got through a lot of it, um, we're able to come out of this with a relation, not you know, a friendly relationship, which um really works for my kids. So that's also in there. But if people can't find that, I hope they can just find some peace and maybe get some ideas to help them through their divorce um through the book. Yeah, and I just felt there was a story that needed to be out there because people just don't realize the two go together.

SPEAKER_01:
19:07

No, they don't. And and then when you say it, you're like, well, of course it would, because it's it's a loss, you know. Even when both people know it's the right thing and everything, it's still a loss, you know, right with it. Uh yeah, and and sometimes people are going through a divorce and the fam and a loved one is ill or they're going through different things, and it can be compounded with the grief. Correct. With it you don't even understand. I see on your website you also help people understand the different types of grief that you have on there.

SPEAKER_00:
19:40

Yeah, I do list uh do list a few different ones um because there, like you said, there's anticipatory grief. Um, you know, there's types of grief that come from suicide, there's types of grief um, again, that come from end of relationships. So there are different types of grief that you could have. Um, so yeah, I do do explain a little bit about that. And I do deal with mostly all of them. Um, I personally don't usually take on clients that have done suicide because I don't have a lot of experience in my personal life with that. And as a grief educator, we usually try to pair up with things we have experience in. Um, so it's it's a little bit easier to be able to help that person if I've been through the same thing they have. So um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:
20:27

Uh and the other another one on here too, like the delayed grief. I think that happens to a lot of people because sometimes when you're in the middle of it all, whether it's going through a divorce or caretaking and you're doing all that, sometimes you don't allow yourself to feel all those things. And then it could be six months later, and all of a sudden you're like, oh my God, what's happening? Right.

SPEAKER_00:
20:49

Right. Or a cut, like you said, a couple of things will happen and it will compound it, and then all of a sudden you you fall into the the stages. Um, and yeah, I mean, you could be you could be going through all the motions. Like you said, there's a lot to take care of when when a loved one dies with banking and you know, taking care of all that, and you could get through all of that, and then maybe you're getting near a holiday or near their birthday, and you start to get really angry because, you know, now you're you're like, whoa, what is happening? And you know, where why did you leave? And I have all these things to do, and you know, if you didn't leave, I wouldn't have to take care of this. And and then you kind of start that delayed grief because now you're moving into some of the phases that you haven't experienced yet.

SPEAKER_01:
21:37

And my dad it kind of happened to my dad a little bit like that. He um I'm I mean, he was there with me taking care of my mom and all that. But right after she passed, actually that day she passed, he starts cleaning out her room. You know, like that morning, I was looking at him like, seriously, you know, and then he was just like, you know, he he had the checklist of everything he had to take care of, and then we actually went. on a really really nice trip to Ireland. So then he was all focused on that until we went on the trip. And then after that he felt like completely fell apart. He's you know he wasn't feeling right. He he wasn't sleeping. He you know he had um he drove his car onto the sidewalk because he fell asleep like all this stuff. And then he's like, I think I might have dementia and I'm like oh my God, seriously like but but he hadn't really took the time to focus on his grief, you know?

SPEAKER_00:
22:28

Right. Right. So he was probably experiencing delayed grief because yeah you're getting and that's same thing like when you're pushed through the motions you're even in the beginning when you're pushed through the wake and the funeral and you know everybody's around and then all of a sudden everybody goes home. Yes. And now we have to have real life. So in your situation like you said he was cleaning things out you went on a trip and when he came back nobody was there now and everybody's life went on and his is going to change now.

SPEAKER_01:
22:58

Yeah. And so I was like I mean I got him into grief counseling and in that and it's helped him you know and stuff but I was just like you know and and we you know took him to the doctor we got him all checked out and he you know he's doing modern stuff.

SPEAKER_00:
23:10

But yeah I could see that because it was like well yeah it was much it was a lot better more fun to focus on going on a trip than sure to deal with everything else you know but I think a lot of people don't realize that there can be a delay in the grief process. Yeah you know um again because I think people don't really understand the whole grieving part. So you think well yeah I'm grieving because my mom passed and okay now we're done with everything so I'm back to work and that's it back to reality. I'm not allowed to grieve anymore because I'm not but you are and you're allowed to hold that the rest of your life if you want to you know um but always trying to move forward with that grief and you can always hold on to that grief and I tell people that and you can still move on and have joy in the other the other hand and still hold your grief. No one says you have to let go of that.

SPEAKER_01:
24:03

Exactly. Yeah I think people feel like oh well eventually I have to and you don't you they're always with you I I that's what I believe anyway.

SPEAKER_00:
24:11

You know right me too me too.

SPEAKER_01:
24:13

Yeah so if somebody is interested in purchasing your book how can they purchase your book?

SPEAKER_00:
24:19

It's available on Amazon and Barnesandnoble dot com. There is a link on my website also which is LisaWrightsgrief.com there are free resources on there if people need anything um I do a monthly blog they can read um I do have a newsletter they can sign up for and if people are interested in additional help you can sign up for a free consultation and we would take it from there to see if this is something you need.

SPEAKER_01:
24:46

Okay. So uh I will have the link to your website uh on my on the podcast page so it's Lisa Wright LisaWrightsgrief.com put that on there and I was looking on your website you do have a lot of good resources on there.

SPEAKER_00:
25:01

Oh thank you yes uh and that's where I saw actually you had the is it like a pamphlet or a little book about the holidays too yeah and I I actually have a few now um I have one about surviving grief um so I have um yeah three uh three ebooks now that are out um along with my book so um and they're if they go to the store there's a store the books are all available in there the ebooks.

SPEAKER_01:
25:24

Okay. So yeah I mean I think sometimes those are good for people to have just to recognize it right for that. Maybe understand what they're going through. Yeah because a lot of people they just don't they don't everyone's gonna experience it but we just don't want to talk about it. And we need to because Right we need to make us feel better. It it does it really does. It sounds crazy but it really does make you feel better when you can talk about your loved one or even just to feel like you're not crazy of what you're feeling. You know or like exactly yeah for it. Well thank you so much for joining us today on Patty's place. Yes and I'll have the link to your website and your book on there as well all right sounds great. So I hope everybody has enjoyed this edition. So I hope you enjoyed your cup of tea your cup of coffee or your glass of wine and you just sat back with us and realized that you are not alone in all this and we'll catch you next time on another edition of Patty's Place

SPEAKER_01:
0:09

Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we will talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. I did this podcast in honor of my mom, Patty Pat, who died from uh dementia about two years ago. So I want this to be a place where you can come and know you're not alone. So today, go ahead and grab your cup of tea, your cup of coffee, or your glass of wine and join us today. Today we have a special guest. Her name is Janice Goldman's. She is the she has a master's degree in gerontology, and she's been working with the aging population for quite a long time. She also has the website talkaboutaging.com, and I'll make sure I put that link so you can go check that out as well. So welcome, Janice. Thank you so much. Glad to be here. So you said that both of your parents had Alzheimer's disease.

SPEAKER_00:
1:02

They did at different times. Um my father watched my mother go through it, and I would say that COVID inactivity kind of sparked it in my dad a little bit more than it might have. So yeah, my mother had already passed away when he started all of the that journey.

SPEAKER_01:
1:24

And can just to refresh people, can you tell us what's the difference between Alzheimer's and dementia?

SPEAKER_00:
1:31

So it's very easy to uh use a comparison between fruit and dementia. So fruit and dementia are both the categories, and Alzheimer's disease is like an orange. So it's one type of dementia.

SPEAKER_01:
1:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:
1:50

So there are there are more than one type of dementia, and I know people use them um interchangeably, but it is uh there is a distinction.

SPEAKER_01:
1:59

There really is. I know, uh, because you could have there's the umbrella of dementia, and they could have vascular dementia, uh the frontal body. Yeah, Louis body and stuff like that. I know people use them interchangeably. So um I thought we would start with with uh you know, when you have a family member that you notice these different signs in them, you notice something's just not quite right with them. Right. How do you get your family or your siblings on board to help your parents or your loved one?

SPEAKER_00:
2:34

I think in all honesty, these things have to start before your parents have any issues if you can do that, just to make talking about things that could happen part of normal conversation. So when your parents are fine and you know going along um wonderfully, to sit down every so often and say, hey, what would you want if something happened? Do you have a power of attorney? Do you have a will? Where would I find your banking information if you know something happened? And just have these small little conversations along the way. Now, most people don't do that. No, they don't. So what happens is an event will happen, either small events that um stack up or a crisis. Uh, and if you start to see small events, I actually for the holidays had um a checklist for people to look for certain things. Look to see if your parents um had food in their fridge. Is it too much? Is it too little? Um look to see if, in terms of caring for themselves, if they're still at the same level that that they had been in the past. Look for things like unopened bills. Do they have bills? Do they have overdue notices? That means that they're not uh necessarily taking care of their financial uh things that need to be done. When you're speaking to them, are they coherent in the in the conversation? And the thing to be aware is that even if you see some red flags, there are other things that can be happening that are not uh Alzheimer's. It could be hearing loss, and somebody is trying to pretend that they hear. So they're answering you with words that may not make sense to your question, and it's really because they can't hear you, or B12 deficiency. So there's all these things that people get very, very um nervous about that can sometimes be very easily managed. So even when you see red flags, go and have things checked out. Um, in terms of you seeing something and talking to your family, I think you just have to be honest and say, hey, I've noticed, you know, this happening. Is there anything going on? Do you see anything? Talk to your siblings. A lot of times parents will push back. And one of the things that I suggest is if you are uh in relationship with their physician is to bring your concerns to the physician. And that way it can be either um dealt with because there is something going on, or it can be dealt with and be done and move forward with um, you know, healthy um a healthy diagnosis. So I think having the the courage, and it really does sometimes take courage to say to your family members, hey, I think we want to have a little discussion about this. It's really important to me.

SPEAKER_01:
5:41

I I agree uh with all that. So what if you have like with my mom? Uh I her and I went to the same doctor, so I was able to talk to the doctor, but with uh my mom just she didn't know she had dementia. I don't want to say she was in denial, she just really didn't know. So she she just didn't want to talk about it. Like I tried to get the our doctor to just do the the general memory test, like the 10 questions, and she absolutely refused to answer the questions.

SPEAKER_00:
6:13

So it's a challenge. Yeah, it definitely is. Um, I know when my mom really shouldn't have been driving, I thought to myself, how am I going to address this? Because if I say I think you should be, you know, give up driving, she's going to say, No, no, no, I'm good, I'm good. And I literally I went to her doctor and I said, This is your responsibility. Like you have to do this. And the same with your doctor. Your doctor does have a responsibility to follow up on these things. And you know what? If you try it the first time and they don't do it, it's okay. Doesn't mean that you stop trying. You try other little things. There's other ways that a doctor can um, you know, through conversation and um for you reporting different things that you're seeing, just start taking some notes and saying, all right, these are things I need to be following up on and asking more questions. I mean, imagine if it was you and somebody said, here, do these memory tests, and you think, well, I don't need to do these memory tests, I'm all good. Right. Sometimes that can be confronting. And so it's finessing it in some ways, finding ways around it to get your answers. And you may not get it on first go. You may have to be patient and do it slowly. Do two questions, but they don't, but the person doesn't know that you're doing that. You know what I mean? Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:
7:39

Uh yeah, and I when you said finesse, like I had to learn that too. Like at first, I would be like, What do you mean you don't remember this or whatever? And and now looking back, I'm like, okay, I I had to learn to not say those types of things to still get the answer. And also with my dad, you know, they were he had such a hard time and he lived with her every day, and he was in denial. He did not want to admit, like even family members would say to him or that, and that was difficult too because I knew there was something wrong, but he refused to see it, you know.

SPEAKER_00:
8:16

Uh again, think about it. You know, you've been married to somebody for decades, yeah, and it's a hard thing to have that right in your face where you know, you know, you know, but you don't want to know that you know. Exactly. And to admit, wow, this is this is a big change. This is something happening that I don't know how to deal with because we're not trained, we're not given any kind of um knowledge on if something should happen, what you do. We just have to again wing it until we have you know some support in place. So I had the same thing with my dad. He didn't really want to face the fact that my mom had had challenges and made excuses for her until I think he realized that that wasn't cutting it with me because I knew better. I had both of my parents tested when they were not, you know, exhibiting no circum no um symptoms. And I told their doctor, put these in their file, because you never know, one day you might need it. And a couple of years down the road, I said, Remember those tests that you did? Well, bring them out and we're gonna redo them because I think there's an issue. So it's again, it's it's challenging to have that in your face. And for us as uh children of aging parents, we want to be the children all the time. And then all of a sudden you're thrust into, well, now the rules may reverse. I have to be the one that makes the decisions, that does the caregiving, and be okay with that. And my parent has to allow it because you can't just say, Okay, here I come. I'm gonna do everything now. It generally isn't gonna work well.

SPEAKER_01:
10:06

No, it wasn't. It didn't in my particular case. My mom would get mad. She'd be like, What are you telling me what to do? And I know uh with my dad, he's a little bit better, but he still struggles with certain things like you know that he can't do anymore with it. So it it it is really hard because in and looking back and seeing it from their point of view, that would be hard. You're giving up your independence and you don't want to do that. Uh with it. Um I know you mentioned earlier about having those conversations about power of attorney and that and luckily my parents had done that. Uh so I knew, but can you explain to somebody like what the power of attorney is and what it does?

SPEAKER_00:
10:47

Sure. So they are legal documents that if the person is incapacitated because of um cognitive issues and they can't make um decisions for themselves, there the the person who is the power of attorney then has the ability to intervene in terms of financial issues for the financial power of attorney and for medical issues for the medical power of attorney. And it allows you to make decisions. Um, you know, if somebody needed surgery and they weren't able to say yes or no because they didn't have the cognitive ability, then that would be something you could do. If you find that that person cannot live independently anymore and you have to find other options that would allow you to either bring somebody into the home or get help through the government or privately, or look for alternative um living situations. So it's a legal document that gives you that ability. Um, what my suggestion is is when there is siblings, uh I learned kind of the hard way that uh you can do it two different ways. You can have more than one power of attorney. The problem with that is that everybody then has to be contacted on any decision and everybody has to agree. There's another way of doing it that's called joint and severally. And if it's severally, it means if they get one person and one person says, That's, you know, I need a decision now because it's it's urgent and critical, then that person has the ability to make a decision. So it's important uh when you're doing the power of attorney to have a look at how you want to set it up.

SPEAKER_01:
12:35

Definitely. Um the way my parents set it up was that uh for the financial and health care, they were each other's, but I was the second one right underneath. Right. So it'll it allowed because as a matter of fact, we had to use the power of attorney in order to take my mom into the emergency room and get her diagnosed because that's how I finally got my dad, like because she didn't know who we were anymore. So I was like, we ha we have to do that. So luckily, because I was on both of them, I was able to work with the doctors and and that type of a thing because my dad really didn't want to he had a hard time with that. So because they saw I was on there, they were able to talk to me about it. And I always included them. So yeah, it is something I mean, I even think about this for myself, like you know, I really probably should do that. What if you get in an accident or something, you know, and you need somebody to make those decisions, you know. But again, you don't want to think about it, but you should. So also a lot of times that leads into how do you decide what's the best living arrangement for your parent or your loved one?

SPEAKER_00:
13:38

So it's very individual. And I guess there's sort of four areas that I say people need to look at. Number one is financial. You know, residential care in a lot of places is quite costly. Yes, it is. You don't have insurance or some other way that helps you uh defray the costs, it can be prohibitive. It just can't. Um, I know in Canada we have government long-term care, and it's an option. Um, some of them are good, some of them are not so good. I bought long-term care insurance, but I will tell you by the time I need it, it's not going to cover anything. Yeah, it's not a lot of money. Yeah, and the costs are going up. So, you know, money is definitely important. Um, another thing is where are the supports for that person? Do your children live in the same area that you live in? Um, because a lot of times people don't live in the same city as their parent or very close to their parent. So they don't have the ability to keep their eyes uh closely on their parent. And that's a decision maker because then you need either to hire somebody to come in and be those eyes, or you look at a facility of some kind or a residence of some kind if that's necessary. Um you have to look at the medical situation. A lot of residences, private residences, have a certain threshold of what they will take in uh in terms of health challenges. And if it becomes um more than they can handle, then you have to find somewhere else. And that's a lot of change for somebody, especially if they have Alzheimer's disease, getting used to a new environment and then saying, nope, okay, now they've got other health issues and we can't deal with them. You got to find somewhere else. It can be a challenge. And um, you also have to look at, you know, what is in the best social interest. There are people who their friends are still in their neighborhood and they have lots of social interaction. But for others, aging in place becomes very isolating. And all you have is that person and maybe their caregiver, and they're not getting a lot of social interaction. And so if that's the case, then you may want to look at um either you know a different kind of facility or day programs or things like that where they're going to get a degree of social interaction. And that's for somebody with cognitive issues, anything. It's it doesn't change somebody with cognitive issues still needs to have interaction with with other people. Um, because that that's what keeps us going, you know, it is what keeps us going. So those are the four areas that I think you have to look at. And literally, I tell people just get a big sheet of paper and write down the pros and cons for each of them. And you as a family have to make that decision. Uh, in my role as a gerontologist, I'm happy to sit with families and go through that with them. But really, it's not something for me to say your parents should go live here or there. It's a family decision and looking at all of the criteria to say, here's what I think might be in the best interest. And it's going to be some compromises. Oh, we can't afford everything, but we can afford this. Uh, I'm not living in the same city, but my sister is. Um, oh, we can hire somebody to come in and take mom out for four hours a day or whatever. There's all of these different options that can be explored. It's not all or nothing. Um, and you have to figure that out for your own family.

SPEAKER_01:
17:32

And with that, I mean, I'm I'm an only child, so I only had to have the difficult conversations with my dad. Um, and some people were like, oh, you're an only child, so everything falls on you, that can be good. But I've noticed with my friends who have been going through this with their parents, and that it always seems to end up on one child, no matter what. So how do how do you how do you get your family or your siblings on board or like how do you have those difficult conversations? Because it seems like illness brings out the worst in people, like you know, like people get angry and then there's these fights, and how do you try to do this with the best interests of your loved one, but then also dealing with everybody else's feelings too?

SPEAKER_00:
18:18

For sure. So the other thing, I especially someone in your case where you are the only child, there are other people that can help you. If your parents have their own siblings and they're in good health, or if you have cousins that you have that could help you, or friends, or um faith community members, or friends of your parents, there's there's other people in a wider circle that may not take on to the same degree as you, but can help you with caring for your parents. And again, it's getting as many people as you can to help in any way that that would work, and figuring out, okay, I I can take mom to the doctor, but I need somebody else to go and do shopping, or I need somebody to, I can do the financials, but I need somebody else to take mom to the doctor because I just I work and I can't do it. So it's a matter of finding resources within your larger circle that might be able to help you. Uh, and and sometimes you have to, you have to employ somebody. I mean, that's just it's just the reality. The other thing that you have to be aware of, especially when you are the only child, is you have to be very careful of burnout because when you're doing everything and you're running around like a chicken without a head on, your health can deteriorate. And then you're no good for your parent, right? So, again, it's finding ways if you need to go. Away, or you know, you need some respite to find how I can do that. And there's a lot of places that offer respite care, and it may not be your top choice, but in order to have the best quality of life for everyone, and I really stress this it's not just the best quality of life for your parent, it's for everybody. And again, there's going to be trade-offs, there's going to be days where you're going to think, oh, you know what? I just can't do this. I need somebody else to come in here. And then you feel guilty. Yes. But you have to be able to, like I always use the analogy of on a plane, if you don't put that oxygen on yourself, you can't help somebody else. So you've got to put your oxygen on. You've got to re-replenish yourself, figure out how you're going to take care of you while you're taking care of your parent. And especially there's so many um children of aging parents that they're working full-time. They have their own families, their kids are in school or university or whatever. And they and they've got all of these balls up in the air. They've got their own social life and all of those things that they want to still be able to participate in. And you want to be able to try and find balance. And it's not always easy. For sure, it's not.

SPEAKER_01:
21:18

No, it's not. And like I said, in my particular case, being an only child, I had that. But I like I said, I noticed with my friends and that it seems like even if when they have siblings, it seems to revert back to how they were growing up, like who was the one that always took care of things and who didn't, and all that. And so sometimes they would say to me, You're lucky that you're an only child, you don't have to deal with it. But it's difficult because it's not only you're dealing with your loved one, but then you're dealing with all your family, and everybody has an opinion. And you get burnt out just with that sometimes, too. Like you don't even know which way you're going with stuff.

SPEAKER_00:
21:57

So that's why having an sort of an objective third party sometimes is a good idea. Yes. That's where a lot of what I do is to get in the middle of that when someone says, Well, I don't want to do that. And I'm like, All right, that's okay that you don't want to do that. But your sibling here is burning out. Cannot do it. So what's so tell me what is the solution here? You as a family, then need to come up with a different plan because your sister needs a break. And I get that you don't, you know, you're not all that comfortable doing the hands-on care. That's okay. Let's figure something out so that everybody is on the same page. That, you know, I have the family right goals together so that everybody realizes what is important. And it's, you know, the safety of the parent and the well-being and the financial stability and all of these different things. And everybody agrees on that. So everything that you do as a family has to go to making those goals happen. And when somebody says, Well, I don't want to do that, then I bring them back to the goals and say, okay, I get you don't want to do that. Here's our goals. How are we going to achieve them given the situation? And you know, sometimes people will still fight back, but you can't, you can't, people are who they are and they're going to do what they're going to do. And that's why I said if you can have people go to their strengths, if somebody really is comfortable with the financial end and maybe the legal end, great, do that. But if you're the hands-on care person and you're burning out, you may have to say to your sibling, okay, I know you're not comfortable with this part, but I need a break. I need a break.

SPEAKER_01:
23:49

And that is hard to do, to say that. It is hard.

SPEAKER_00:
23:53

It is definitely hard. It is. But you know, my big word is advocate. And you have to advocate for your parent and you have to advocate for yourself. And there are families, you know, where there's other situations where the relationship between the child and the parent is not optimal. I'll just say it that. Yeah, it's not wonderful. And people say, I don't want to take care of my parent. I don't have a good relationship. They didn't do what I expected them to do as a parent, and I am not going to take care of them. And again, perfectly valid. I'm I, you know, I can't, I can't fight with that. But then what's then what is the solution? Then we need to come up with a different solution. If it's not you, who else can it be? Who else can we bring in that would be willing? And it's sometimes you have to think really outside the box to find those people. And hopefully that you have the financial wherewithal or the um access to some government assistance that will help you do these things. And again, it may not always look exactly like your picture, but it's an overall goal for highest quality of life for everybody.

SPEAKER_01:
25:13

Yeah, I mean, people just don't think about all the all the aspects of what goes into play when you're trying to deal with it. So what would you say for given just to remind people, what are the best ways or a good rule of thumb to talk to people who have dementia or Alzheimer's?

SPEAKER_00:
25:32

So, you know, it was something that you had said earlier that is so common. Well, I just told you that. Don't you remember? And what happens with that, it's and it's a it's a knee-jerk reaction. And we all say it, we all do it, and then we feel bad because we said it. But if you can keep in your mind that they're not doing it on purpose, that you have to go where they are. If they tell you the sky is purple, you have to say, Wow, what color purple is it? What does it look like to you? You have to find a way to put yourself where they are. And sometimes it's it's not so easy, but it's it works really well when you go where they are. Um, you know, it's a it's using positive language. So you're not saying no, don't, can't. It's more things like, yes, we can, let's try it, let's let's do something else. It's diverting. Um, you know, if they if you want to get them to go out because they've been sitting and they're like, no, well, or they're talking about something that um is causing them stress, it's changing the conversation. Or if you find yourself getting very frustrated, and it happens, believe me, it happened to me many times with my parents, and I would say, you know what, I'm looking at my watch, I have an appointment, I've got to go. And you do it, and you and you take yourself out of the situation before you get overwrought. Sometimes you just have to to you know distance yourself. Um you have to let people have time to finish their thought. Sometimes we want them to finish, you know, we want to finish their sentences and let them know you're there to help them. You know what? I understand. Yep, it's fine. It's whatever, whatever works for you and diverting so that it can show that um you know you're aware. Um, it's somebody says, okay, you know what? I want to wear it's 30 degrees outside, and they want to go outside with no coat on. Yeah, they don't know. Yeah, they don't know. Yeah, I you know, I I understand that you'd like to do that, but for now, let's try that, you know, let's do this because um I'm gonna take you to the drawer and I'm gonna just let you see what it feels like outside, just so that you understand. Because sometimes you have to literally be more, you know, patient, like a child. How would you say it to a child? You would say, Okay, today you need to wear your coat. It's cold outside. Let me show you. And sometimes it's like, oh, okay, yeah, I get it. We also have to be respectful of people's own choices. We may want them to go and do an activity, they don't feel like it. And sometimes you gotta say, okay, that's all right. We'll just we won't do that right now. We'll just let you do what you want to do. And that's a balance, it's a hard balance.

SPEAKER_01:
28:38

But that was with my mom too, because you know she had to go into memory care. And if people asked her, Oh, Pat, do you want to go play bingo? She would say no. But if they said, Oh, Pat, will you help us set this up? She'd be right there. You know, it was all and I I will say that when I learned how to be in her world and to do that, I found that one, it was a lot easier, but I also now can look back and see, I'm glad that I was able to because I had so many more moments with her. And I was like the person that she turned to when she got upset and I was able to calm her down. Uh, so I am grateful that I learned that. So uh Janice, thank you so much for joining us. So your uh people can also go to your website, it's talkaboutaging.com. Is that correct? Right. And there's there's free resources, and people can get in touch with you on that website as well, too, correct? Right.

SPEAKER_00:
29:35

And also my Instagram is Aging Parent Journey, and I've got a series of videos there that talk about uh how I help people and how to how to address some of these conversations. And what do you do if your parent does have Alzheimer's? How do you communicate with them? It's just short little videos. Uh, and I'm also very happy to have conversations with people. I have um a way to you can contact me and I and I can get back to you. We can have a one-on-one conversation to talk about things that might be top of mind that I can maybe give you some tips. And then I work with people as well. I work with families. So lots of resources. I'm I'm very happy to help. And I and you know, I think one of the the best sort of resources that I have is I've been through this, I know what it's like, and I didn't do it perfectly. And if I can help you not make some of the mistakes I made or help you through your mistakes, we're real people. You know, none of us is perfect. We make, you know, we we we try to do our best and we don't always, and that's perfectly fine and normal. And I want to give you that latitude to know it's okay.

SPEAKER_01:
30:51

And I will put all this information on um on my page as well with it. So thank you so much for joining us today. And so hopefully this helped. Hopefully, you enjoyed your cup of tea or your cup of coffee or your glass of wine if it was a really bad day. Know that you're not alone here, and uh, please join us again for another edition of Patty's Place.