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SPEAKER_00:
0:12

Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we're gonna talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. This podcast is in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia about two years ago. And so I'm your host, Lisa, and I wanted to have a place where people know that they're not alone when they have these difficult subjects to talk about. So grab yourself a cup of tea, a cup of coffee, or if you're having a really bad day, a glass of wine, and let's let's sit down and talk about. So today, my guest is Ingrid Hansen Pop. She wrote a book called Becoming an Orphan. Uh and it's all about her memoirs with her mom and different things about caregiving, you know, how to have those difficult conversations with siblings and everything. So welcome, Ingrid. Thanks, Lisa. Great to be here. I'm so glad this worked out. Yes. So in your book, um, well, tell me a little bit about your book first before we get into questions. Okay. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:
1:08

Okay. So, in fact, I meant to grab it off the shelf. Yes. Hold on. It's always close at hand. Yes. Um, becoming an orphan, a caregiver's guide to lovingly letting our parents go. And that book had to be written uh years ago. My mom had wanted to write the story of her life. And so I got to thinking one day, you know how could I help her make that dream come true? And so I helped, we started together and I started writing her memoirs. That's a book called Cellophane Farm. And uh I had a release party for that. And some people knew that. Uh-oh, I'm making a I'm making a mess here. Um looks like this. And that's our family farm. Oh, okay. And some people knew that I had helped mom at the end of her life. Once the book came out, she died kind of unexpectedly, and I had to finish it without her. And um people were were telling me all of their stressors and strains and upset about what was happening with their parents. I didn't ask for this, but they would say, as soon as they knew that I had helped mom at the end, uh they would launch into stories of, you know, mom broke her hip, what are we gonna do with dad? Uh you know, and what struck me was that all of these people were hardworking, smart, problem solvers, and they were at wit's end. They didn't know where to turn for help. And I really believe in listening for if God has something he wants to tell you, if you're listening, you'll hear it. And it was, you know, I think there's a I think there's a problem here. I think there's a need here to write this book. And so that's how that's how it came to be.

SPEAKER_00:
3:13

I would agree with you. You it seems like once you get into this particular area when you're taking care of your parents, all of a sudden you find other people and you start having that conversation because you really do feel alone when you first start going through it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:
3:28

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:
3:29

So, what kind of expectations do you think are sneaky about sabotaging your caregiving?

SPEAKER_01:
3:35

Oh that are you hearing that ding in my computer? I hope not. No. Any okay, good. Uh oh, sneaky indeed. Well, first of all, that you're responsible to fix everything. And I think secondly, if you do something that doesn't work so well, that you feel guilty or it's your fault. And that the amount of tasks it depends. I'm I'm a task, make a list sort of person. Yes. And if that's your personality, you will make the list, you will make the plan, and then the plan changes because your parents' health condition changes or whatever. And so that's what starts to drive you nuts. But you're gonna still go after that task, no matter if you're abandoning your own children or you know, neglecting your own husband or your household or your health or your job because you think there's something in you that says, I have to do it all. Yes. Yeah, or I'm not a good, I'm not a good daughter, I'm not a good child. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:
4:56

And that is not correct. Yeah, there are it is hard to ask for help, and sometimes you don't know where to go for help.

SPEAKER_01:
5:06

Right. Hence the book. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:
5:09

Um, as you you kind of alluded to, what uh what are some other pitfalls that people can avoid when they're caregiving for their aging parents?

SPEAKER_01:
5:18

That alone thing, that lone ranger thing, even if one of my one of my uh interviewees, my fellow orphan, uh, he was an only child and his dad was gone already, and his mom he was taken care of. It doesn't matter if you have a big family or you're an only child, you don't have to do this alone. And so sometimes uh if I think about the the first thing I would advise is you step back and look at what is my life right now? Do I have kids in school? Do I have a full-time job? Uh what can I, you know, or maybe you have a job that you can alter your hours, or you could go part-time. So you look at those things, but then you ask, who else is on the radar? I could ask for help. And it might be a neighbor. For example, one of the things I think we we tend to forget depends on where you live, it depends on how far away you are from your parents and whatnot. But we forget our parents' network. They may have great neighbors that are like, they'd love to help, but they don't know what to do unless you call them and ask them.

SPEAKER_00:
6:42

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And it is hard to ask for help because yeah, you think, well, I have to take care of it. Um, I have found, I mean, I am an only child, but I I kind of have, and I've had this conversation with other people too. Even if you have brothers and sisters, it does seem like there's always one person that it falls on, and then they and then they feel even angrier because they're like, why am I doing all of this all the time? So it's like, why do you think there's so much conflict when you're caring for an aging parent?

SPEAKER_01:
7:14

No, there are very real reasons, and I think part of it, a huge part of it is that the shift and it depends on your relationship with your parent, maybe close, maybe estranged, maybe anywhere in between. But the expectation is, and that's that's what trips us up, right? Always that we have expectations we don't realize it, is that our parent is the one that's been taking care of us, or even just supporting us as young adults, you know, they're like, hey, what's going on with this, and you know, don't worry about that, or giving us advice, and then all of a sudden they can't, and our whole foundation goes tipsy. Yes, it does. You know what I mean? Yeah, and um, and I think the other reason is in the conflict, again, whether your family's really close, you have siblings, for example. But it's funny you should say it always seems like one person takes the lead. Just personality-wise, I think, but um that it's emotional, it's so emotional because if our parents start feeling that we know we don't think about it, and some families talk about it, some don't, that means they're eventually going to be gone. And that this is the end, this is the beginning of the end, and it's emotional because we wouldn't be here without our parents, right? That relationship is so completely unique, even if you're adopted or we're fostered or whatever, whoever's in that parental role or nurtured you, um we wouldn't be the people we are without them. Very true. So the loss of them, I think hits us broadside, and we don't realize that that was a great question, exactly why. But I think that's why, because the relationship is completely unique.

SPEAKER_00:
9:22

Yeah, it is, and I think too, it also goes into everybody's different coping skills, where, like you said, some people take the lead and they want to make this work, and other people are like they can't face it, or it's too hard for them to do it, so they just they don't step up, and then that creates all of that uh animosity and more conflict. Um, and then some people think they have more of a say, and then it's like I I feel like I feel like illness brings out the worst in people. I don't know why, but it kind of does, you know. It kind of does. So it and carrying on with that, like why do you think like as a family it's so hard to come up with a plan for you know there's a there's beyond the emotional and all the uh potholes in I think the illness highlights the the weak links in our family dynamics because generally a family has figured out how to function.

SPEAKER_01:
10:28

Like, you know, I'm gonna go to this birthday party, but I'm gonna stay for an hour and then I'm out of here. And then I can be nice and whatever. Right. Well, like you said, illness all of a sudden brings another shift to uh all those coping mechanisms as a family, whatever whatever the emotional uh wisdom is within each person. But the other uh the other thing we found, and and mom wasn't super ill, she at the end, but it was we my sibling, my I have an older sister and older brother. As soon as I told them what was going on, you know, we're all on high alert, and all of us were like, okay, let's make a plan. You can't make a plan necessarily because you don't know what the next medical event's gonna be, what the next fall is gonna be, accidents gonna be, you don't know how somebody's uh disease, whether it's cancer or Alzheimer's, you don't you don't know. Nobody knows how that's going to progress. So that's what we found is uh it very quickly, you're like, well, we should do this and should do this and we should plan for that. But it it never really held together because you don't know what's coming.

SPEAKER_00:
11:58

It's very true. And I think sometimes just like the simple things, like say with the holidays or birthday parties or different things like that. I feel like some family members will be like they're understanding and they know whether it's dementia or it's cancer or it's any other type of a disease, that well, maybe my family member, my parent might not be able to make it, you know, to that event, or maybe they can only stay a little bit. And then I feel like there's other people that are like, Well, what do you mean they can't come? Like, and it's just like I feel like it just gets crazy because it's like you're trying to do what's best for that person who is who's sick or who's getting older, you know. Like, even as you get older, sometimes they get tired and they don't want to stay longer and not not to get upset, it's not personal, you know.

SPEAKER_01:
12:48

Correct, you know, and it's reality, it's not it's not a personal problem.

SPEAKER_00:
12:54

Yeah, yeah, it's even as simple as as like I noticed with my dad. Um, my dad will be 80 this year, and for a long time, he just he prefers not to drive at night, you know. And I've to, you know, it doesn't bother me. Like if we are going somewhere or whatever, I'm like, I'll pick you up, I'll drive. Because I would rather do that for him, you know, or even like my uncle, who's in his 70s, is like, yeah, I don't like to drive at night anymore. Okay, but for some people, like that would just be what do you mean? You know, and it's like it's just simple little things sometimes can just make life easier, yes, all around with it.

SPEAKER_01:
13:31

We started we started doing that. My mom eventually lost her driving privileges, and uh our small family lives only a little over an hour apart from one another, and so we knew that for my mom and her sister, the matriarchs of the family, getting together for holidays was like the thing for them. I mean, it was just their absolute highlight, they just loved it. So, between my cousin and my brother and us, we would handle the picking up and driving home and even the location of, well, let's can we have it at your place because you're a little more centrally located. But yeah, we'll bring it's it's a wintery night for Christmas, not a big deal. We'll bring her home.

SPEAKER_00:
14:12

Yeah, those types of things for people to think about. Sometimes I think for some people it it's harder for them to make those adjustments because, like you said, it means they're getting older, and that I mean, we never know, you know, some people live with when with anyone, sure. Sorry, you know. So how one way you know, like how do you know when your parents might need help?

SPEAKER_01:
14:36

Hmm. You have to they're rarely gonna ask you. This thing is true, safely say this is true, yes, and I think there's uh there's a bit of a stealth mode, uh spy gene that has to kick in. So again, uh it depending on if you've been if you if you live closer or you stop in to see your folks more often than say another, we have a younger brother, my David, David's, my husband's younger brother lives in Colorado. And so, and our his folks are in um Illinois, so they have a different perspective, and so in fact, we have it on our but you kind of know what your folks' routine is, generally speaking. So I think being in stealth mode, for example, is in there when you're in your parents' home, everything from so I'm just gonna grab something out of the fridge, mom. And how's how are things looking in there? Do we have moldy food? Do we have enough food? Is it empty? Is that weird? Uh, to you know, mom's always been an amazing housekeeper, and you're like looking at the kitchen sink going, wow, there's dirty dishes sitting in here, like that have been here for days. So it you look for those things, I think, to alert you, or paying attention, even in their in their own home. There's a in my in-laws home, there's a step down from the kitchen area to the fireplace room, whatever. And how how is mom navigating that step? Is it like a big hairy deal when it was never a deal before? So I think it's looking for those little things, but the I think the harder part is when you notice it, how do you ask about it?

SPEAKER_00:
16:34

That's very, very true. Um, because with with my mom, I noticed different things. Uh, and she was actually very mobile, considering she had dementia. She had it for a while, but yeah, she didn't know she had it, and so she would get upset when we would mention things. But my mom was a great, she was an excellent cook, and that started to change, like different things, like you know, and just she wasn't able to follow, like she loved watching TV and movies and you know, especially mysteries, and she could figure out who was the killer before anybody else, and like she couldn't follow, you know, and and she was a big reader and she wasn't reading anymore, those types of things. But how do you navigate when you know they need help but they're stubborn? Like I fight this with my dad, just simple things like when he gets a cold. I'm always like, All right, well, if you don't feel better by this time, I need to take you in because I think you might have bronchitis or pneumonia, you know, and he fights me every time.

SPEAKER_01:
17:33

Yes, you know, it's um I think behind the questions, this was this was after my own mom passed. I I hadn't realized that her eyesight was uh diminishing. And so I like I said, I I didn't do it well because I was just like, oh my gosh, she's so lazy, she's not like doing her dishes, what the heck? And it was way later than I thought, oh well, first of all, it's because she didn't have enough energy to do it, because something was off with her thyroid. And secondly, her eyesight was bad. She couldn't, she couldn't see the dirt or the whatever. I mean, she never was, but I think it's trying before you bring up a topic or ask about because it can come across as judgment so quickly. This is why in my book, I hit my editor and I had a had a little debate about that lovingly. Yes. Let's parents go. And I'm like, no, no, that's staying in the title. Because if you don't keep compassion, well, how would I feel about it? You know?

SPEAKER_00:
18:52

Yeah, and my mom, even though she didn't know she had dementia, she she would tell people, she'd be like, Oh, she just she just thinks she knows everything. She's just, you know, there she is, she's grown, and now she's trying to tell me what to do and all that. And I'm like, I'm not ma, you know. Oh, she'd be like, Oh, these grown kids, they just think they know it all. She'd be like, No, I just you know, but I I did. I then tried to see things from her point of view when I understood more. But I noticed that even with like friends and stuff, sometimes they'd be like, Well, my mom's just not moving, she's not doing this or whatever. And so sometimes I'd be like, Well, maybe there's a reason, or you know, or like, hey, they're this how many years old?

SPEAKER_01:
19:30

They have a right to not do it anymore, you know, like right, you know, or to simply ask, uh so let's see, how could you do this? For example, um, well, and the other thing is I think especially parents who live on their own, whether they're single or or married, they they become they're they're already in a defensive position, yeah, probably from what their peers have gone through. And so let's say my mother-in-law has trouble with going down this step, and I notice it, and it may be well that that is your knee hurting you, because I know she fell recently. Um, is that knee still bothering you? Or, you know, are you are you gonna get you know some physical therapy for that knee? Because I noticed that step is a little bit like you know, difficult for you and it and it hasn't been before. But it is it is hard, and you know what? I think it's the this is I'm I'm not I'm not very far on the um the uh the on the growth line here, but dealing with conflict and letting it be okay that whether it's your siblings or whether it's your parent, they're not real happy with what you just said or what you just did or what you're suggesting, and then you just leave it. It's okay for that's that's giving them dignity, which is and respect is for all of us to have our own emotional responses to whatever. And sometimes it's you say it as kindly and thoughtfully as you can, but you just planted a seed, theoretically.

SPEAKER_00:
21:25

Yeah, I I think that that I I've learned that sometimes that's the best way is to do that, to be like, you know, just think about this. Yes, and then you kind of let it go a little bit, and then a lot of times then like they'll call you or that and be like, you know, I'm not really feeling that good. Would you, you know? Yes. Which is hard when you know you need to do it, but I I get it, like it, you know, like you said, because I wouldn't always like it if somebody was coming at me that way either. You know, and I I think we forget sometimes because we worry about it, you know, there are parents. We want them to be okay. We sometimes just no, you have to do this, you know, and you know, we have to, like you said, give them dignity, which is really it I think too, it's like with any type of illness or that you have to give that person that respect. Let them make those decisions and just know that you're there, you know. Yes, which is hard uh with that. Do you have any suggestions when you're talking about siblings to get them to help? Because I know that's like I said, for me it wasn't, but I know it is for many of us. Yes, yes, it can be. I I've witnessed it with my friends. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:
22:38

Well, several of my um several of my uh fellow orphans that I interviewed for the book. I you asking the question, I'm suddenly grabbing, I I'm suddenly growing in respect for these particular people because, for example, one woman said, Well, it it fell to my sister and I, who were more local, to take care of mom, because our other sister just wasn't managing her own life, and our brother lived far away and just didn't want to participate. And her takeaway was you know what? Sometimes it's nicer to have more people, siblings help. But if they're kicking and screaming, it's it's not helpful and and it just creates more conflict. And she said, with just the two of us, we shared responsibilities, and most of the time it worked out fine. And I I was in charge of this, and she was in charge of that. The one lady was a nurse, and she said, I didn't always agree with how my sister did things, and she didn't always agree with me, but we had discussed, okay, I'm gonna take care of the medical stuff, you take care of the you know, all the other legal stuff, yeah, the financial stuff, yeah. And so it's leave it's letting them, it's giving dignity to your siblings, and and that whole sometimes it's understandable, sometimes it's not, sometimes again, you have to, I think it's the standing back and and and taking that sibling relationship or that sibling thing and just like an object and just turning it around and looking at like, huh? Okay, let's let me think about my siblings' life right now. You know, are they going through a divorce? Are they struggling with um substance abuse? Are they uh do they have teenagers who are in trouble? And maybe it's just like one too many things.

SPEAKER_00:
24:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:
24:43

And so, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:
24:45

Yeah, I was gonna say, I think that's probably the hardest thing for on anybody in in this whole situation is to be able to step outside of yourself and look at it from whether it's your parents' point of view or your siblings or or that, you know, lovingly and be like, oh, okay, because you feel so overwhelmed by it all.

SPEAKER_01:
25:04

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And now one of uh uh one of my interviewees had said, uh, oh I know it's in the mental health chapter. A friend of mine has been a she's a therapist for her whole career, and she contributed a mental health exactly how to take care of yourself. And it was um, and her advice was um to just ask that sibling, maybe they live far away, or maybe they're just like kind of da da da don't want to be involved, to just ask do you want me to call you to like an email you like when there's another medical development, or does that work for you? Do you want to be in c do you want to be in the loop just of information? Let me know.

SPEAKER_00:
25:58

Yeah, that's yeah, I mean it there's so many different things to maneuver when you know, because even when it comes to it's your parents, your siblings, but then your parent is also a sibling. So then you have all of that, how it all trickles with that, and it it can be very it can be very overwhelming. What what would you say is the most uh foundational thing in helping or idea for in helping your aging parent in general?

SPEAKER_01:
26:28

Yeah, we touched on some good good things a little more peripherally, like keeping that dignity piece in place, but it really is. Um I keep I keep looking at my book. Um so it has the little geese flying there. Yes, and so in the Midwest, right? The geese migrate. Yes. And the point is you'll never see one goose migrating by itself. Oh, that's true. Ever. Yeah. And it's the team. You have to create a team. Like I said, one of my one person in the book was an only child, another was one of 10 siblings. Oh my gosh, I can't even imagine, right? I'm sure you can't. That's a lot of people to maneuver, yeah. Yeah, um, but is creating your team and getting creative up about creating a team. And I think the for the whoever is kind of ends up being the lead caregiver, uh, what's really important for that person is to identify a friend that you can call when you just need to vent.

SPEAKER_00:
27:43

Yeah, that that's that would be yeah, that is very important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:
27:46

And to ask them, again, it's the it's like baby steps for someone like me of okay, here's what I'm asking. You tell me if this is okay. Like, yeah, what are your what are your limitations? Because one of the things that that I find rarely works is that if you're if you're upset about a situation and you and you're trying to vent, venting to your siblings, or in your case, like to your to your mom's siblings, is not gonna help. All of a sudden you just threw gasoline on the fire, is what happened. Yeah, you know, but if you can have a friend's like, I just need you to listen to me. Can uh this like yeah, and I'll ask you if I want advice, like should I do this or should I not? But I'm just maxed out here, and so that would be creating your team is is is that friend for yourself to just keep you in the sanity lane, you know? Um and then thinking a little bit outside the box, as well as being willing to let go of okay, so for example, my mom couldn't drive, the otherwise she ran her life perfectly well, whatever. And uh as long as she had her phone, she was good. And um she was a people person, and uh so I thought, oh, wait a minute, I live a little over an hour away. How am I gonna help her? How am I how am I gonna find the time to drive an hour down there, take an hour to get her to rehab, to grocery shopping, to her church meetings, and then drive all the way home. I was like, wait, time out. So I called her church. There it is, her community. I called, I grew up in it was my home church as well. So the lady who the secretary knew who I was, knew who mom was. She'd served and lived, you know, was part of that church for 60 years. And she's I told her what I was after. I'm like, I just need like drivers, just mom can get in and out of a car, find. I just need drivers. She's like, Oh, I know exactly who to call. It was a five-minute conversation, and I didn't have to drive anywhere.

SPEAKER_00:
29:57

Yeah, I I appreciated that because there was a um probably eight-month period where my dad wasn't able to drive, and I did. I had to I had to like ask people to help me because I was I was working and I I couldn't always take them. And so I was very appreciative of that. And you know, now he's able to drive local, so I was like, okay, you know, but I still I still worry. Like sometimes I'm like, what do you mean you went here or there, you know, with it? Yes, right. So um let's go. The title of your book is Becoming an Orphan, uh uh Caregiver's Guide. A caregiver's guide uh to lovingly helping your parents. Let me our parents go. It's long.

SPEAKER_01:
30:37

I know. That's but where can someone purchase it? Okay, uh, if you go to Barnes and Noble, that would be that would be easy peasy. And uh if somebody wants to get in touch with me, and I have all sorts of other resources on my website, which is just becoming an orphan.com, becoming an orphan.com and uh little little short radio spots that I've done. Uh there's a support group that's online, just short, sweet, like for that venting or problem solving with people who are in the same situation or at one stage of the situation or another. So all sorts of things on the website as well that can help for resources. But the book, yeah, if you get to barnesandnoble.com would be great.

SPEAKER_00:
31:23

Okay. I will definitely put all this information on there. So becoming an orphan uh dot com, we'll have that on there so people can do that and hopefully reach out and uh purchase the book, look it over at barnesandnoble.com. Thank you so much, Ingrid, for joining us here on Patty's Place today.

SPEAKER_01:
31:39

You're welcome. It was great. We I know your heart is to help whoever's listening to like navigate this better and well. So, same here.

SPEAKER_00:
31:50

So, so hopefully everyone has enjoyed their cup of tea, cup of coffee, or their glass of wine for that. And you know that you're not alone. There is communities out there for everybody. So hopefully, you will join us again for the next episode of Patty's Place.

SPEAKER_01:
0:10

Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we'll talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. This podcast I started in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia about two years ago. And so I wanted to talk about things that help all of us. My name is Lisa, and today so grab your cup of tea, your cup of coffee, if it's a really bad day, grab a glass of wine, and we will get together and talk. So today we're actually gonna talk about grief. So our guest today is Lisa Wrights. She's a certified grief educator with over 40 years of experience in healthcare. Uh she brings understanding of emotional and physical healing to grief. And she has a book out that's called Navigating the Holiday. Yes. Correct. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yes. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you became a grief educator?

SPEAKER_00:
1:13

Sure. So as you said, I've been 40 years in healthcare and I'm a respiratory therapist. So I've dealt with mostly um terminal patients my entire career. Um so I was looking for something to kind of stay with that um feeling that I have compassion and empathy, and um discovered this certified grief educator and um went to school and um grabbed onto it and I'm loving it. And uh work with patients, um, sorry, work with clients and groups, um, just talking about grief, educating on grief, um, and working with a lot of caregivers and friends, um, trying to educate on grief also and handling grief with others. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:
1:59

And working with caregivers, so you talk a little bit about like the anticipatory grief. Correct. With that, because that's a difficult one to deal with, you know, when you're in the middle of it all.

SPEAKER_00:
2:11

It it definitely is, and I think a lot of people, especially if it's a family that's the caregiver, um, they don't understand and they kind of tend to get frustrated at times. Um, especially, you know, you were talking about your mom with dementia and this the show's about dementia. Um, my mother also just passed in March, and she also had dementia. And we had family members that were caregivers, and we also had nurses that came in um who were very compassionate. But um, you know, for my sister who lived with her, it got very frustrating at times because just not understanding and that repetitive motion that um dementia patients have. Um, so just trying to work with the caregivers and help them to understand. Um, one of the biggest things I found, especially with the patient themselves, is that they don't really want to be where they're at either. Um, and I think that's something as a caregiver, we don't understand that, you know, when they're repeating those stories or um they're telling you things, you know, sometimes they're not remembering that they've told you, and sometimes they're just highlights in their life that they want to relive. And kind of just sit there and listen. I try to tell the caregivers, be patient, be passionate, and just let them tell that story if they want to tell it five times. You know, it it's okay to to listen to that and try not to get too frustrated because the patient themselves is probably extremely frustrated that they don't have control over that anymore in their lives. And that can be very scary for both people.

SPEAKER_01:
3:51

Like it is, and and the other thing too, I experienced with that anticipatory grief was that I knew she was gonna get worse. And so, like, there were things that like my she she was in memory care and she uh she was able to use the phone for a while until someday she I'm not exaggerating. Sometimes she called me like between 15 and 30 times a day, you know. Sometimes she'd hang up the phone and call again. And people people would tell me, you know, the nurses, and that you don't have to answer it all the time. And I did answer it as much as I could. Obviously, if I was at work, I I couldn't all the time. But I knew in the back of my mind there was gonna come a time when she couldn't do it anymore, and I knew I was gonna miss that. And so I realized that with things like that, like and you know, like one minute they can walk really well and then the next minute they can't. Um, and and with any illness, one minute they're doing okay and the next minute they can't. And I don't think you think about that as a caregiver that that is anticipatory grief, you know. Correct. You know, correct. What do you think people don't understand about grief?

SPEAKER_00:
4:54

I think it's a uh not to say it was a taboo conversation back in the day, but I I feel like it's just something that's never spoken of. Um parents try to protect their children from it because it's taught that it's just such a sad thing. And nobody should have to deal with sadness at a young age, or no one should have to deal with sadness at certain times. Um, when there there really is other ways to get past and and have have other people learn about grief. Um, I do feel, I do feel we're all all of us in society are just undereducated on the stages. I think people are under undereducated on what grief really entails. That I found with clients, clients will come to me and they'll, you know, they'll be like, well, I lost my job and but my mom died. Well, the loss of the job is also grief. Yes, it is. You know, um, yeah, maybe maybe your your child has moved away. That also can be grief. And I think people just don't understand that. And um, it's okay to feel sadness and it's okay to go through the stages of grief when there is something like that that happens. You know, you shouldn't just push it aside. And I think as society, we're just taught that. Um, you know, so so I'm trying to educate more on the okay part, that it's okay to feel the way you do. And your life might look a little different.

SPEAKER_01:
6:26

Exactly. Yeah, people and they think that there's a timeline and there isn't with it, whether it's you lost a loved one, you lost a job, uh a major breakup in your life, you know, relationships and even pets, you know, that that's a huge. Yes, that's a huge relationship. And there isn't a timeline, and some days you might feel good, and another day you're just like uh I'm you know, crying your eyes out, or you're angry, or you're not sure. And I I agree with you, it's a taboo. People don't, oh well, you know, like, well, you you you did the funeral now, okay, you're back to work. Let's not talk about it. And you you need to feel those feelings.

SPEAKER_00:
7:04

Um Right. I do talk about that a lot with um now that you brought up work. I I think grief in the workplace is something that needs to be um taught because you're exactly right. You know, my mom passed away. I got my three days off from work, you know. Um, a couple days later, my mom was going to be buried because she was going to a veteran cemetery and they didn't have a place for her at that time. And I needed to take one more day off. And, you know, my boss was like, okay, you can take a personal day, you know, and yeah, you know, and and and that's that's exactly it. And it's just people don't understand that, and and then you're expected to come back to work fully okay. Yeah, you're not allowed to have those moments where I might need to step out of the office and cry for a half hour. Or, you know, um, and I just think um, and I'm working towards trying to create some programs for week uh for work uh workplace grief because I think there is um a need for it and an education for it.

SPEAKER_01:
8:05

I I would agree with that because even when you are back, yeah, they expect you to be at 100% and your brain just isn't. You're you're still in a fog. Like I know those first couple months when I came back, I I can't even tell you what I did. I know I probably made tons of mistakes, you know, just because I it and then all the other stuff you have to deal with too, you know, you've got the banks and the insurance companies and all that, you know, and I helped my dad with all that, but it's so much, and you're you're just not supposed to talk about it or say, I I'm having a bad day today, you know, uh with it, or I you know, I went to the store and I saw this and this upset me, or I heard this song, you know.

SPEAKER_00:
8:48

Exactly, exactly. And that's and like you were saying, that's exactly when grief pops back up. And and being it has no timeline, you could hear something a year later, yes, and it would remind you of the person who passed, or your breakup, or whatever your pet, you know, and it still brings you down, and and it's okay, you know. Um, I working with um again with caregivers or with the anticipatory grief, um, and trying to tell people, you know, just listen to what others have to say and try not to say to people that might be in grief, you know, you should be over it by now, or you know, I just don't want to hear about your loved one anymore, or oh my gosh, you never stop talking about that person. You know, maybe that person really just needs to speak of them and, you know, just sit quiet and let them speak and just say, wow, you know, I I I understand that, or yeah, I, you know, feel for you. But, you know, I think a lot of people don't know what to say when they're talking to others that are in grief.

SPEAKER_01:
9:51

I would agree with that. I I also think there's quite a loneliness to grief because because you do feel like you you can't talk for after a certain point, you're like, no, I can't say anymore about this or that. It makes other people uncomfortable. Where I I know at a certain point I told some people like I find comfort in talking about my mom, you know, that made me I wanted to talk about her and that. But yeah, a lot of people are like, oh no, you should be over it. Why are you right, you know? Um, it in I I went through grief counseling through our hospice because my mom had hospice at the end. Okay. And it was so I I tell everybody how wonderful they were because they have groups to support groups and different workshops and stuff. And the one thing everybody says is I don't feel alone because you're in this room full of all these other people that have experienced the loss and they know exactly how you feel, you know, right with it. So what are some suggestions that you you give to people who are going through grief and maybe maybe it's their first time and they just don't understand even understand what's going on with them?

SPEAKER_00:
10:56

Right. Um, so my first thing that I always tell my clients the day one is to journal. Um, journaling is a really big part of grief, I believe, for help. Um, whether you want to journal those pages, rip them up and throw them at a wall, or you want to journal lovely stories about that person and and and keep those stories. Journaling can be in many, many different ways. But if you're having a down day or you're just not sure what to do, just grab a notebook and write some things down, and it really helps to make you feel better. Um, definitely I um agree with you talking to somebody, such as you know, a grief educator like myself or going through grief counseling. Um, groups are always good, and you can find groups at almost all the churches now. They usually run grief groups. Um, with the world today and the way it is, there's so many people that are just grieving general society. That's true. So there are some just some really angry people. There are some very sad people. Um, and yeah, definitely getting someone to to walk beside you and help you through that, um, I think is a big step.

SPEAKER_01:
12:10

Oh, yeah, I I would agree with that. Yeah. And sometimes too, people don't realize you might see something on TV and that makes you think of your loved one, you know, or or you hear a story or that and you don't know why you're feeling that way uh with it. So can you maybe explain to people what's maybe the difference, what's the difference between a grief educator like yourself and a therapist?

SPEAKER_00:
12:33

So a therapist works more with you in, I want to say more like problem solving, giving you ways to um feel about yourself, where a grief educator um walks beside you and helps you educate, well, educates you and helps you to understand what you're going through at the time you're going through it. So I usually meet my clients where they are. Some are angry, some are in bargaining, some are in acceptance. Just depends how long they've been in grief. Um, and then I usually will walk beside them and give them, you know, ideas, depending on where they are at that point. Um, again, we always talk about journaling, but you know, it it could be, you know, I just did a lot of um education through the holidays. So we just got past, you know, some major, major holidays. And people not just just sitting and talking to them and and explain to them that when you're at your family's function, that it's okay if you want to step away from the table, if you don't like the conversation, or maybe you're just feeling really sad. And if it's at your house, it's okay to go upstairs. You know, don't feel like you're not allowed to step out of the situation. Um, some suggestions I gave to people was to make sure they had, I hate to quote an escape route, but a way out in case they needed to leave, you know, um, because sometimes it really can get daunting, or you think you're gonna be able to make it through a function and you get there and you just absolutely can't. And some people don't understand that. So, you know what? You just I'm not feeling well, and you step away, and it's okay to be able to do that. So, you know, as a grief educator, um, we are just educating through the stages and educating um along the way.

SPEAKER_01:
14:26

Yeah, and I think it's hard too, because sometimes you do have family members or friends that they really don't understand where you say, like, I I I need to leave or I can't do that right now. And sometimes they get mad at you and you don't know how to handle that, you know, it's hard. Right. And then you kind of grieve that relationship too, because it changes uh with that.

SPEAKER_00:
14:50

Right. And normally if if I had, you know, a client come to me, I think the difference between myself and a therapist where a therapist would be, you know, well, how did you feel after that? And how did you handle it? Where I would be more educating on that situation and maybe how we could have looked at it differently, or how are you feeling now and how are you going to move forward with that feeling? Because just like you said, that relationship may now change.

SPEAKER_01:
15:17

Yeah, it does. And it when we were talking about anticipatory grief or like the holidays or or different events, uh, I got an invitation today for a bridal shower for uh a family, and and of course I'm gonna go because it's a really important person in my life, but it it hit me because I realized this is the first type of event, bridal shower, wedding, that I'm not going with my mom. You know, and like I would out her and I always went to those things, you know, together. And I'm like, oh this could be kind of hard for me, you know.

SPEAKER_00:
15:50

Sure, even though it's gonna look different, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:
15:52

Even though I'm gonna be with family and I'm going because you know, she's an important person in my life, but it's like huh, that's that's gonna be different for me. It's a new a new thing, you know.

SPEAKER_00:
16:03

Um here's the thing the people there aren't gonna realize that it's going to be different for you.

SPEAKER_01:
16:08

No, they won't. And and they're not gonna realize. No, no, they won't. And and I know that going in, so like I have to prepare, you know, for those. But all those different types of things that you don't associate with grief all the time, and they just pop up, they just pop up, yes, they do. Yeah, and you're like, Oh, why am I feeling like this?

SPEAKER_00:
16:30

And you're like, Oh, this is why. Um even this year, um, you know, I said my mom passed in March. My mom loved to watch football. And Sundays my sister would bring my mom over and I would hang out, and you know, we'd watch the football games. And I, you know, this year looked very different for me because she was not there to watch football with me every Sunday. And I've done that for 60 years, you know, watch football with my mom and dad. Yeah, you know, but now it was different, and you know, for some people, you know, that might have been here that day, it's like it's another Sunday at Lisa's house having chili and watching football. But for me, my mom wasn't there now. So for me, it was different and it looked different and it felt different.

SPEAKER_01:
17:10

Yeah, yeah, it does. And sometimes you just don't even have the words to explain how it feels, you know, there's just like this emptiness type of a thing. And I do think it is your life is like before and after, so to speak. You know, how how you have to kind of handle it and think about things uh right with it. So you recently wrote a book.

SPEAKER_00:
17:34

I did. I did. Um, it's on grief and divorce. Okay. Um, again, another thing I didn't realize that agree, you know, when you're getting a divorce or end of a relationship has to do with grief. Yes. Because nobody tells you that. You know, I've watched many people in my life get divorced. Nobody talked about the grieving process of it, but it is a loss and it's a major loss, and it's going to reshape you and redefine you and change your life and the way it looks moving forward. Um, so it does have all the steps of grief. Um, but my book is it does each chapter talks about a different stage of grief. And then it's also my journey through my divorce. So um, you know, if it's the anger stage, I do talk about myself going through that anger stage and how I handled it and worked my way through it. And then it has some journaling pages and some questions for people to be able to answer about their own relationship. Um, you know, and then it, you know, it's about maintaining family bonds because my ex and I were able, after we got through a lot of it, um, we're able to come out of this with a relation, not you know, a friendly relationship, which um really works for my kids. So that's also in there. But if people can't find that, I hope they can just find some peace and maybe get some ideas to help them through their divorce um through the book. Yeah, and I just felt there was a story that needed to be out there because people just don't realize the two go together.

SPEAKER_01:
19:07

No, they don't. And and then when you say it, you're like, well, of course it would, because it's it's a loss, you know. Even when both people know it's the right thing and everything, it's still a loss, you know, right with it. Uh yeah, and and sometimes people are going through a divorce and the fam and a loved one is ill or they're going through different things, and it can be compounded with the grief. Correct. With it you don't even understand. I see on your website you also help people understand the different types of grief that you have on there.

SPEAKER_00:
19:40

Yeah, I do list uh do list a few different ones um because there, like you said, there's anticipatory grief. Um, you know, there's types of grief that come from suicide, there's types of grief um, again, that come from end of relationships. So there are different types of grief that you could have. Um, so yeah, I do do explain a little bit about that. And I do deal with mostly all of them. Um, I personally don't usually take on clients that have done suicide because I don't have a lot of experience in my personal life with that. And as a grief educator, we usually try to pair up with things we have experience in. Um, so it's it's a little bit easier to be able to help that person if I've been through the same thing they have. So um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:
20:27

Uh and the other another one on here too, like the delayed grief. I think that happens to a lot of people because sometimes when you're in the middle of it all, whether it's going through a divorce or caretaking and you're doing all that, sometimes you don't allow yourself to feel all those things. And then it could be six months later, and all of a sudden you're like, oh my God, what's happening? Right.

SPEAKER_00:
20:49

Right. Or a cut, like you said, a couple of things will happen and it will compound it, and then all of a sudden you you fall into the the stages. Um, and yeah, I mean, you could be you could be going through all the motions. Like you said, there's a lot to take care of when when a loved one dies with banking and you know, taking care of all that, and you could get through all of that, and then maybe you're getting near a holiday or near their birthday, and you start to get really angry because, you know, now you're you're like, whoa, what is happening? And you know, where why did you leave? And I have all these things to do, and you know, if you didn't leave, I wouldn't have to take care of this. And and then you kind of start that delayed grief because now you're moving into some of the phases that you haven't experienced yet.

SPEAKER_01:
21:37

And my dad it kind of happened to my dad a little bit like that. He um I'm I mean, he was there with me taking care of my mom and all that. But right after she passed, actually that day she passed, he starts cleaning out her room. You know, like that morning, I was looking at him like, seriously, you know, and then he was just like, you know, he he had the checklist of everything he had to take care of, and then we actually went. on a really really nice trip to Ireland. So then he was all focused on that until we went on the trip. And then after that he felt like completely fell apart. He's you know he wasn't feeling right. He he wasn't sleeping. He you know he had um he drove his car onto the sidewalk because he fell asleep like all this stuff. And then he's like, I think I might have dementia and I'm like oh my God, seriously like but but he hadn't really took the time to focus on his grief, you know?

SPEAKER_00:
22:28

Right. Right. So he was probably experiencing delayed grief because yeah you're getting and that's same thing like when you're pushed through the motions you're even in the beginning when you're pushed through the wake and the funeral and you know everybody's around and then all of a sudden everybody goes home. Yes. And now we have to have real life. So in your situation like you said he was cleaning things out you went on a trip and when he came back nobody was there now and everybody's life went on and his is going to change now.

SPEAKER_01:
22:58

Yeah. And so I was like I mean I got him into grief counseling and in that and it's helped him you know and stuff but I was just like you know and and we you know took him to the doctor we got him all checked out and he you know he's doing modern stuff.

SPEAKER_00:
23:10

But yeah I could see that because it was like well yeah it was much it was a lot better more fun to focus on going on a trip than sure to deal with everything else you know but I think a lot of people don't realize that there can be a delay in the grief process. Yeah you know um again because I think people don't really understand the whole grieving part. So you think well yeah I'm grieving because my mom passed and okay now we're done with everything so I'm back to work and that's it back to reality. I'm not allowed to grieve anymore because I'm not but you are and you're allowed to hold that the rest of your life if you want to you know um but always trying to move forward with that grief and you can always hold on to that grief and I tell people that and you can still move on and have joy in the other the other hand and still hold your grief. No one says you have to let go of that.

SPEAKER_01:
24:03

Exactly. Yeah I think people feel like oh well eventually I have to and you don't you they're always with you I I that's what I believe anyway.

SPEAKER_00:
24:11

You know right me too me too.

SPEAKER_01:
24:13

Yeah so if somebody is interested in purchasing your book how can they purchase your book?

SPEAKER_00:
24:19

It's available on Amazon and Barnesandnoble dot com. There is a link on my website also which is LisaWrightsgrief.com there are free resources on there if people need anything um I do a monthly blog they can read um I do have a newsletter they can sign up for and if people are interested in additional help you can sign up for a free consultation and we would take it from there to see if this is something you need.

SPEAKER_01:
24:46

Okay. So uh I will have the link to your website uh on my on the podcast page so it's Lisa Wright LisaWrightsgrief.com put that on there and I was looking on your website you do have a lot of good resources on there.

SPEAKER_00:
25:01

Oh thank you yes uh and that's where I saw actually you had the is it like a pamphlet or a little book about the holidays too yeah and I I actually have a few now um I have one about surviving grief um so I have um yeah three uh three ebooks now that are out um along with my book so um and they're if they go to the store there's a store the books are all available in there the ebooks.

SPEAKER_01:
25:24

Okay. So yeah I mean I think sometimes those are good for people to have just to recognize it right for that. Maybe understand what they're going through. Yeah because a lot of people they just don't they don't everyone's gonna experience it but we just don't want to talk about it. And we need to because Right we need to make us feel better. It it does it really does. It sounds crazy but it really does make you feel better when you can talk about your loved one or even just to feel like you're not crazy of what you're feeling. You know or like exactly yeah for it. Well thank you so much for joining us today on Patty's place. Yes and I'll have the link to your website and your book on there as well all right sounds great. So I hope everybody has enjoyed this edition. So I hope you enjoyed your cup of tea your cup of coffee or your glass of wine and you just sat back with us and realized that you are not alone in all this and we'll catch you next time on another edition of Patty's Place