A planned goodbye sounds impossible until you hear what it actually looks like inside a family that chooses it. We’re joined by Teresa Evans, an author and former ICU nurse, to talk about her book *Choosing to Die* and the final months she spends with her mother in Ontario as her mom pursues medical assistance in dying (MAID). Teresa brings both clinical clarity and daughter-level honesty to a topic that’s often buried under fear, politics, and silence.
We walk through what MAID is, how the medical aid in dying process works, and why safeguards like capacity assessments and real-time consent matter. We also zoom out to the bigger end-of-life planning picture: advance directives, durable power of attorney for health care, and the hard but necessary family conversations that keep people from feeling trapped when suffering becomes intolerable. If you’ve been searching for guidance on assisted dying laws in Canada and the United States, or what a compassionate end-of-life option can look like, you’ll find practical context here.
The conversation also meets dementia caregiving head-on. We talk about anticipatory grief, the reality that dementia can block access to MAID because consent may be impossible at the end, and how caregivers carry loss long before a death occurs. Teresa shares a powerful metaphor from her mother’s garden, reminding us that love, presence, and thoughtful preparation can change the emotional texture of a goodbye.
If this resonated, subscribe, share the episode with a caregiver or sibling, and leave us a review so more families can find these conversations when they need them most.
to Patty's Place, a place where we'll talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. I'm your host, Lisa. I named this podcast in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia a little over two years ago. So grab your cup of tea, your cup of coffee, if you're having a really bad day, a glass of wine, and come join us as we talk about things. And just so you know you're not alone. That's what we're here for. So today my guest is Teresa Evans. She is an author and also she was an ICU nurse as well. So welcome, Teresa, to Patty's Place.
SPEAKER_01
0:38
Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
SPEAKER_00
0:40
So um we're happy to have you too. Your book is called Choosing to Die: A Daughter's Story of Supporting Her Mother's End of Life Through Assisted Death. Is that correct? Yes. Okay.
Teresa’s Story Behind The Book
SPEAKER_00
0:54
So tell us a little bit about yourself and how the book came about.
SPEAKER_01
0:59
Um, I'm Canadian, but I I've lived in the United States since I was uh 18, but all of my family lives in Canada. Okay. And um my mother um had a turkey childhood and um a lot of health issues that sort of plagued her, and then she had a heart attack when she was 60, and um her health just never really bounced back. She did have open heart surgery, but she had multiple health issues that were slowly but surely leading to uh a decline in her quality of life to the point where just before, I would say two years before her 80th birthday, she was really most of her days were spent in what I would call suffering, pushing for some relief from that. And we had tried every medical intervention known to man and um every non-medical intervention that we could come up with. And one day I just said, you know what, mom? You live in a country where you don't have to suffer. If this is intolerable for you and you want to explore MAID medical assistance in dying, I said, I'm not trying to off you, I don't think you think that by any means, right? But I said, I do want you to know that you do have a choice. I I personally I think the worst place is to feel backed up against the wall with no choice. Yes, and I didn't really know that she would explore it, but she did, and then she came back and said, Yep, I'm gonna do it. And um, that was a little bit shocking. I mean, of course, I supported her a hundred percent. So that's how this story started. And um, this was in 2020, so COVID was really raging at that point, and I I had lost my job, which was a travel job anyway. So I hopped in my car and I drove to Ontario and I spent three and a half months with her and my two sisters before she laid down and died on her 80th birthday.
SPEAKER_00
3:15
Oh, okay. Okay. So in
Where MAID Is Legal
SPEAKER_00
3:18
Canada, this is legal.
SPEAKER_01
3:20
It is, it's legal in Canada and it's legal in 14 states in the United States, and there are 12 states that have it on the dockhead trying to get some kind of legislation legislation through.
SPEAKER_00
3:32
So Okay. Yeah, my mom used to talk about that too, way before she got sick and stuff, because she just never she always looked at it as your quality of life, you know, what what's that quality uh with it? So I completely understand uh on that side of it. So, why did you want to write the book?
SPEAKER_01
3:51
I just it was such a remarkable experience for me to live that last three and a half months with mom and also as a critical care nurse, and uh I've just been around a lot of people when they're leaving their bodies, and I've seen how it can go if there have been thoughtful conversations beforehand between all of the family members and the person who's leaving, and I've seen how it can go when there hasn't been any thought given to the fact that we are all going to die one day. And I really wrote the book, first of all, just to honor my mother and share our story. Um, I am an advocate for maid, of course. I don't feel that everybody should choose maid, but I do feel that everybody should have that choice. And I want to more than anything, just get people talking about the fact that one day we will all die. And how do we show up for somebody who's getting ready to take that journey? I'm hoping that this book will spark those conversations. And from the feedback that I've gotten already, a lot of people have been, I wish I'd read this book before my mother died. I wish I'd read this, you know. So I'm I I think it's serving its purpose so far. Well, that's good. So, what is made? What what does that stand for?
How Medical Aid In Dying Works
SPEAKER_01
5:23
So, medical assistance in dying is um a program that was first legalized in Quebec in 2015 and now all over all over Canada in 2016, where you can ask for medication that will actually cause your death. Okay. And it is you have to be evaluated by two independent doctors. If there's any doubt about your mental capacity, you also have to be evaluated by a psychiatrist. Okay. Um you have to be a Canadian citizen. If you're doing this in Canada, you have to have a health card, a Canadian health card. You have to be of sound mind. So you have to be able to give consent right at the time of when you receive the medication, even. So there's never any um forcing involved. Uh, you can change your mind at any time. You're reminded constantly that this is totally fine to change your mind. Um, and so you have to uh be able to give consent, and you need to be suffering from um from a condition that is not going to get any better. It's clearly not going to improve. If anything, it's just gonna continue to get worse. I think initially they had a six months. I know in the United States there's a six months time period, sort of aligns with if somebody goes on to hospice, but I believe that that is not the case in Canada anymore. So my mom easily met all of that criteria. And um, so she received a cocktail of medications. She she chose what day she wanted to die. She said, When should I do this? And I'm like, do it on your birthday, mom. Why don't you do it on your birthday? Do it on the same day you came in. I mean, it was, you know, reasonably, it was within months of her birthday. And I mean, how do you choose? Right, right. I I don't think anybody really wants to die, but I think people become exhausted when the physical, mental, and emotional suffering just becomes so overwhelming. I
Dementia And The Consent Problem
SPEAKER_01
7:54
think it's a little bit different when you have dementia because you're not always aware. I've worked in a I actually helped open a dementia unit in a long-term care facility and Alzheimer's unit, and worked in that unit for two years. And um it's a different type of suffering. I think oftentimes it's more difficult for the family than it is for the person that has dementia.
SPEAKER_00
8:22
I I would agree with that because they don't they don't know.
SPEAKER_01
8:25
Um there's that initial, I think that initial period where you you do know. You know that something's not right anymore, but you usually slip through that period, you know, you move through that period, and then you're just not aware anymore that yeah. So I think what makes what made MAID, I mean, actually a lot of people who who have dementia or have a history of dementia in their family really want to be able to access MAID. And this is one of the ongoing debates in Canada right now is because actually, if you have dementia, you can't access MAID because you can't give consent at the end.
SPEAKER_00
9:08
No, you can't. You really can't. You can't. And um, my mom and dad had done the powers of attorney years before, and that that's actually how we got my mom diagnosed. And it was kind of funny, not funny, but I don't know, lack of a better word. But my dad and I were trying to do some stuff with the bank, and the bank was like, No, she has to give her approval, and we're like, she has dementia. She, you know, I could sit right next to her on the phone and tell her what to say. I mean, I I appreciated that they were protecting her rights, but it was like, I don't think they understood. So my dad and I were like, all right, we're just gonna leave everything right now, you know. Yeah, yeah, it's like, no, she she'll say whatever I want her to say, and I don't want to do that to her, you know, like it's just crazy the lack of understanding with it. So
Family Support And Anticipatory Grief
SPEAKER_00
9:56
was your you said you had two sisters, were you were your family on board with your mom with this choice?
SPEAKER_01
10:01
They were. It was the three of us just uh they live close to mom in Ontario, and um the three of us just rallied. It wasn't easy, but it wasn't, I mean, we didn't spend mom's last months um crying and wishing it were different. We spent, we just decided to show up for her and make it as as joyful of a time as we could. I mean, of course, we were experiencing a heavy, heavy load of anticipatory grief. And that would seep through every once in a while, but rather than we knew that once mom left, we would have time to process our own grief. And again, I I've just being with families, members, I think, and I write about this in the book, I think that oftentimes we confuse our grief. We we think that our grief is the way the person who's leaving is what they're experiencing, also, and we sort of lay our grief on top of that person. And I think they're two separate um events, and it's completely different for the person that's leaving, and we really wanted mom to know that every good thing that she had ever done as a mother, and just literally love her out of her body without any judgment. And um, you know, we we dealt with our grief after mom left. I mean, mom was grieving too. She was grieving the fact that she didn't know if she would how she would see us again. That's true. Um, so you know, we we were we were actually helping her uh work with her own grief. I think um we all believed that death is really a transition. So none of us really thought of it as a real ending. And um just more of a transition, and we would have to access our communication with mom in a different way.
SPEAKER_00
12:18
I think that's really true because um well, my mom always believed in I, so then I kind of believe she taught me that like you you're you can the person's still with you just in a different form. And even like before she before she died, weeks, even almost a couple months before, she started seeing like family members, uh and that. And I just went along with her when she would talk about them like, oh, who's here, you know, and stuff. So yeah, it she wasn't scared, it brought her comfort, and it brought me comfort because I believe they were there with her, you know, yes, with it. And so I still believe she's she's with me, you know, uh in different in different ways with that. Well that uh that was good that your sisters and all you were on the same page, because sometimes families aren't right, yeah, with that.
SPEAKER_01
13:07
I think um we decided that even I think for all of us, even if we hadn't agreed with mum's decision for with made, we all could see how much she was suffering. And it was just about supporting her, not about whether we supported her decision, but whether we supported her.
SPEAKER_00
13:33
I think that's a good distinction to make that you are you're doing it for her. Uh yeah with that. And yeah, that anticipatory grief, I I can relate to that because I I always tell people I lost my mom years before I physically lost my mom. Uh and that's knowing like I there would be different things. Like my mom used to call sometimes, like literally one day, I think it was like 30 times. She called me, you know. And people and people would always say, you don't have to answer it all the time. And and I would say, I know. And and if I couldn't, if I was at work or something, you know, I wouldn't. But in the back of my mind, I always wanted to answer it because I knew there was gonna come that day where she wasn't gonna be able to do that anymore. And so it was like I knew that, and it did, it came that day where they called, and somehow my mom had dialed numbers that were, you know, we had one of those phone like landline, you know, and she just had to press a button to call me or call my dad, and somehow she dialed some other butt person's number. And luckily they figured out, you know, where she was calling from, and they called the the the facility to say, hey, you know, we just we could tell she has dementia or something, you know, you know, and then we took the phone out. But yeah, that whole anticipatory grief, I think in some ways, if you're able to recognize it, I think it helps a little bit as you're going through the process.
SPEAKER_01
14:53
I agree with you, and I think it um I I mean I can only speak for me, it made me very thoughtful about. I mean, when I would be with mom, when I was with mom, when I would look in her eyes, I would really look in her eyes. Like I knew I really wanted to see her because I knew that the time was limited, and I don't think that we're always um oh coffee delivery.
SPEAKER_00
15:18
Oh, that's even better.
SPEAKER_01
15:21
Yeah, I don't think, you know, I mean, our lives are our lives are full of distractions of ways to get distracted, and um this this what this did for me, I don't think I've ever been present for anything the way I was present for my mom for those last three months of her life.
SPEAKER_00
15:44
I would agree with that. Um I can relate to that because with dementia, they live in that present moment. So you're I was forced to be in that present moment with her, especially like the last the last week um when we knew it was coming. Uh yeah. You you are you're just that's all that exists for you with that. So what do you hope readers will take away from um your book?
SPEAKER_01
16:11
Well, uh
Advance Directives And Starting The Talk
SPEAKER_01
16:12
like I said, I really hope that they this will this book will spark conversations around end-of-life issues. Um Compassion and Choices is the United States organization that is lobbying and helping educate people about assisted deaths here in the United States. And they say really anyone over the age of 18 should have advanced directives in place: a durable power of attorney for health care, a durable power of attorney for um business affairs for your bank account, etc. And so I plan on getting very involved in compassion and choices. I'm still working and getting the book out is a full-time job. Oh, yeah, yes. I was just at a writing workshop, and I I mean, I had no idea what I was getting into. Writing the book is one thing, but getting the book out there is a whole different animal. And they were saying, you know, when you have a book that's been published traditionally, you might have 30 to 50 people involved in getting that book out from you know the editors all the way through to the marketing. But if you're independently publishing a book, you are all 30 of those people. Yes. So it's been like a full-time um job. And I just feel like I feel so close to my mom because I just feel like we're doing this together. I know she would be so excited about this. And so it feels like this big journey that we're on together. And I didn't physically, I wasn't physically living close to my mom for most of my life. So while we talked all the time, I only saw her once, maybe twice a year in a good year, because I was over a thousand miles away from her. So to spend that last three months with her, and now I feel like we're together all the time, you know, working on getting this book out. So I do, I do hope that the book inspires families and individuals to reach out to their people, whoever their family is, right? And um start to have these conversations.
SPEAKER_00
18:29
And you said that you wrote this from the point of view because your mom was a master gardener.
Gardening As A Metaphor For Leaving
SPEAKER_00
18:34
So so you talk a lot about gardening and things like that within the books. So how does that is the garden is like a healing place? So can you describe that? Like how how is that written for you that way?
SPEAKER_01
18:47
Well, mom asked, she was she was such a wonderful gardener. She had huge vegetable gardens when we were growing up, and then for the later years of her life, a beautiful flower garden. And while I was there, she asked me for that last three months if I would put her garden to rest for the season. And so, of course, I was thrilled to do that. And as I was working in the garden, I started noticing that everything I was feeling, I was witnessing in nature. So nature just became a giant metaphor for what we were experiencing. And I realized that it's just all part of the cycle of life. I mean, you know, we can't really have life if we don't have, we have, I mean, death is part of life. And there's there's times where we're growing, and then there's times where we're decaying, and it's all a natural part of the cycle. And again, I'm hoping that my book, so mom, so what I did was I as I started writing the book, I I couldn't not talk about the garden. And all of a sudden, it just became that I was writing our story uh through the lens of what a plant would be going through. And so I just I made a list of all of the plants in mom's garden, and each chapter focuses on a different perennial. And as I'm telling the story of what's happening in the house with with my sisters and with mom, and our journey of saying goodbye, the plants are also getting ready to um, they're dropping their leaves or throwing their seeds. It's fall, right? So the same process was going on, and so I share a lot of botany in the book.
SPEAKER_00
20:36
Well, that's that's kind of neat because it is, it's very it is the cycle of life. We don't like to think about it, but it is really true with it. So we get gardening tips too, then a little guy.
SPEAKER_01
20:46
You do, you get gardening tips, you learn a lot of botany. There's actually a um, there's actually a glossary at the back of the book with all the botanical terms in it.
SPEAKER_00
20:56
Oh, that's cool. Yeah. So
The Countdown And A Peaceful Death
SPEAKER_00
21:00
what do you think was the hardest part of this journey for you and for your mom?
SPEAKER_01
21:07
Uh I think it was I thought it was gonna be, you know, that moment when we laid down with her and she received the medication, but that was, you know, I say in the book, um, I don't know if I can find it, but you know, she mom had asked us, she said, now girls, if you feel like you're gonna fall apart, don't just leave the room, you know, because she didn't want to have to take care of us. You know, she was leaving her body. And I say, we didn't fall apart. We fell into the the magic and the mystery of the moment. Um, we laid down with her like kittens, we just snuggled around her and um. And she just quietly and peacefully took her last breath and left her body. I I think again, anticipatory grief can be a heavy load. We all experience it in different ways. It's very, it's an odd kind of um knowing to know the exact day and time your mother is going to die. And so there's a little bit of a like a countdown of, you know, I say when I got there, we had 86 days, which felt like 86 days felt like it was going to be plenty. But as each day, as we got closer, it felt like the days were just flying by. Some days it felt like they wouldn't, they were never ending. And those were the days where maybe for me, I was more preoccupied with the reality that mom would be gone soon. Um, and again, I carried that. We tried to carry that. Not that we didn't talk about it, but it wasn't the major topic. Mom loved fossil hunting. I took her on a fossil hunt a couple weeks before she died. She loved um bingo. So we, you know, she couldn't, it wasn't, she wasn't vital enough to go out and play bingo in the bingo hall, but we we set up a bingo game. She loved, you know, she had a plant that her Christmas cactus that uh we ceremoniously split into three pieces and repotted. And we did really, she wanted to knit scarves and hats for all of her grandchildren and then all of her great-grandchildren, which was a lot of knitting. The four of us were doing a lot of knitting during those months, but to her, that was a tangible way, you know. I describe it as a tangible way of wrapping her love around, you know, each each one of her grandchildren and her great-grandchildren and her children. So we she taught me a lot about gardening during that time, too. So we really used the time to um we just we had a birthday party that was for all of us, you know, like the last birthday party with, you know, celebrating each other while mom was still here. So I think the hard I think the hard part is always just knowing that you're not gonna be able to call, I'm not gonna be able to call mom up and say, how what was the recipe for that pancake, mom?
SPEAKER_00
24:38
Exactly. Yeah, that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01
24:40
Yeah, that's what I did you find yourself, did you find yourself sometimes I mean you I suppose because it was drawn out with your mom, but I even though I knew very much that mom was gone, I I would still months after I would think, Oh, I just need to, and I'm like, Oh yeah, no, mom's not I I can't do that anymore.
SPEAKER_00
25:01
Yeah, because my mom didn't know who I was, you know, but I could still physically go see her. And I went to go see her every day. And every once in a while, she would have a lucid moment. Like she'd look at me and she'd say, I know this is really hard on you. And I knew that was, you know. Um, but I always kind of just went with her after a while, like whatever she said. I was so glad I paid attention to all her stories about her family and everything. So when, because she thought she was back when she was little, she thought she thought that the memory care um was her grandma's house. And so uh we my dad and I just went with that. We're like, yeah, you're a grandma's house, you know, you know, so I was glad I paid attention. But that is what I missed the most now that you know she's physically gone. I miss just picking up the phone and calling her. You know, her and I used to watch TV together. She used to, uh, you know, she used to have all the gossip magazines and you know, things like that. Like she would call me, put this on. Did you hear about this? You know, I miss that kind of stuff. Or like, you know, she taught me how to bake and and cook and all that. And, you know, sometimes when I'd come over, she'd be like, okay, you you need to we're gonna make this recipe because you roll out stuff better. I don't use this rolling pin anymore, you know, and stuff like that. You know, and that's the stuff I you miss just being being able to call and talk to them about whatever, you know. And yeah, I mean, it it was hard because she didn't know, but then you know, I but she was still physically there. So I could still see her, I could still get something out of it. But you talk about like that knowing because hospice had told us when they knew she had like about a week left, and that was like that that in a way that was like a countdown because like I I knew, you know, she was only gonna be a few more days or a few, you know. Um, and I I was with her when it happened, but my mom being my mom and the caregiver, you know, people asked me what was the exact date, you know, time that she and I was like, I don't know because she went when I had closed my eyes for a little bit. And I knew she did that on purpose because she didn't want me to hear her last breath. I just knew it. And so I wasn't upset about that. But she I I know that she knew I was with her, you know, yeah, uh, with that, um, yes, with that part. So we learn about gardening and everything for that. It sounds like you you you know, you and your sisters had a very, I don't want to say a nice time, but a very special time with your mom then for those last three months.
SPEAKER_01
27:29
It was it was a remarkably special time. I mean,
Letting Go Of Belongings Without Guilt
SPEAKER_01
27:32
mom wanted all of her ducks in a row. We we we totally uh repainted and cleaned her house. She we sold everything that she wasn't using. We, you know, and of course, families, I I talk about this just like gardens, just like plants, families. Each plant has its own timing, each human being has its own timing. And um, I know uh like one of my sisters felt when mom was encouraging us to get rid of her stuff. She said, get rid of my stuff. I want all of this taken care of. And she wanted to, she had the realtor, got the realtor, and the house went up for sale literally five days after she died. Oh wow. Um, yeah, she wanted all of that stuff taken care of. She had given away the things that she wanted uh people to have, and we were kind of lucky because the guy had moved into town where mom lived, and we put our first ad up on marketplace for some of the kitchen stuff, and he bought it all. And he said, Well, he said, you know, he said he just moved into town and need he needed everything. And my sister's like, Well, well, Wesley, that was his name. If you can wait, say, like 18 more days, we might be able to help you out. So basically all of Mom's furniture and apartment went over to him. I said, if we ever really miss mom's stuff, we can go visit Wesley. Yeah, there you go. My, you know, my I I one of my sisters felt like I think she felt like we were sort of getting rid of mom faster by getting rid of her stuff, although we were just doing what mom wanted. And so those moments came up, of course, like they do in all families. But rather than get reactive about it, I was just like, I understand that. And, you know, have a conversation with mom and see what she wants. Because if if we should slow this up, we think we're just doing what mom wants, but just double check. And so as long as we kept coming back to not not what we need necessarily, still honoring that, but more what does mom need in this moment? What does she want? If she wants us to sell everything in the house tomorrow, then let's do it, you know, let's keep some sheets for her bed. And um, so yeah, it was, you know, and we sat the night before we created a beautiful altar and we hung fairy lights and we turned this space into this just sacred what we felt was a sacred space um for mom's actual leaving.
SPEAKER_00
30:11
That sounds beautiful. It really does. Um, I know a friend of mine uh had a similar feeling that your sister had after her mom had passed and they were cleaning out stuff, her and her family, and she just started crying because she felt like she was throwing her mother away, you know, just because it was her things and stuff, and I think that's just a normal reaction to know, like, yeah, okay, I can't I'm gonna keep this, but what do I do with this other thing? You know, it just because it's their things, you know. You just you feel like it.
SPEAKER_01
30:44
I think with my I have one daughter, um she's 40, she'll be 47 in June. Hard to believe. But I um I find myself now at the age of 66. I'm really being careful about what I bring into my house. And um after just going through this experience with mom and seeing how people struggle to um get rid of that the person who's left, to get rid of their belongings, you know, and that feeling that that's a piece of them. But uh I didn't have I'm not attached to things that way. I mean, I'm not saying I don't love beautiful things because I do, but I also um it was it it's not hard. I don't I'm more of a purger than a saver. Okay. And I am helping a gentleman right now go through his house after his wife died a couple years ago. And she they have a big house and they had a lot of stuff, and I don't want my daughter to have to go through boxes and boxes and boxes of stuff. Um I mean, when I leave, I want her to spend her time walking the beach and fossil hunting and being in the woods mourning me, not through getting rid of a lot of collections of things. So I'm trying to be, I mean, just for me personally, it made me very mindful about um what do I really need? And you know, it's funny um because I would say, as I've it's been five years for for me now with mom, and things of moms that she had given me that I thought I would always, I would never part with. Um, she had a beautiful medicine pouch that she was very close with the um the Native Americans in the that lived in that area with the Aboriginals, and they had made her a medicine pouch, and I and she gave that to me, but last year I just thought, I don't need this anymore. I'm done with it. My journey of needing to hold it to feel close to mom is over. And and I asked that I asked my daughter, I said, would you like this? And of course she was like, Oh, I would love to have it, mom. So it's hers now. And you know, and I said, and know that when you're finished with it, when if a time comes where it's not necessary to be in your space anymore, it's okay. Grandma would be fine with that. It's like you don't have to to have this for the rest of your life.
SPEAKER_00
33:27
Yeah, I always I kind of when we were going through my well, we had to do it twice because my dad sold their house at, you know, when she first went into memory care. And then again, it was all her things in her um in her room in memory care. But I always in my mind, I erred on the side of if I wasn't sure, I kept it because I thought, well, I can always go through it and get rid of it later. And I have done that, even with clothes and different things. I'm like, no, I this is okay. I can do this with it. So
Where To Find The Book
SPEAKER_00
33:56
where can someone purchase your book, choosing to die? A daughter's story.
SPEAKER_01
34:01
You can find the book on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Tertullia. My own website is Teresa with an H, Teresaeevans.com, and you can purchase the Kindle version right off my website. Okay. Um, there you can purchase the audio version from Audible. Okay. It's a beautiful audio version of the book. So uh yeah, all the usual suspects you can find it and on my website.
SPEAKER_00
34:29
Okay. Well, we will definitely put all of that information on there. So thank you so much for joining us today. This has been a beautiful conversation.
SPEAKER_01
34:39
Thank you. I've enjoyed it immensely.
SPEAKER_00
34:42
So I hope everyone has enjoyed this conversation that we've had. So make sure you leave us a review or add us to your subscriptions on uh uh YouTube and hope you enjoyed your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or your glass of wine, and join us again for another episode of Patty's Place.
In this episode, Mike and Glenn are joined by returning guest Doctor John at a local coffee shop to dive deep into the realities of alcoholism. The conversation provides fantastic advice and information, highlighting John’s inspirational passion for both newcomers and old-timers.
Core Themes & Discussion Points
The “ISM” is the Core Issue: John emphasizes that the problem is not alcoholism (the substance), but the ISM (the human condition). It is about the “void” or “hole in the soul” rather than the booze itself.
A Spiritual Dis-Ease: John argues this is not a chemical imbalance or a disease in the traditional medical sense, but rather a “thirst for God”—a human yearning for wholeness, centeredness, and peace.
Hypersensitivity: Alcoholics are described as “pain augmenters” who are highly sensitive. Alcohol initially served as an effective coping mechanism and brought ease, until it eventually stopped working.
Character Defects: These defects were essentially coping skills utilized when the disease was active and untreated.
Powerlessness & Affinity: An essential foundation of recovery is accepting one’s powerlessness over the condition. It functions less like a physical allergy and more like a profound mental dis-ease and affinity.
Actionable Takeaways & Prevention
Removing the Alcohol Isn’t Enough: Eliminating booze removes the symptom, but the underlying “ISM” remains. It is a lifelong condition that persists regardless of external life circumstances.
Stay Connected: Because the condition is always present, isolation is dangerous. John stresses that while you can be drunk or dry alone, achieving true sobriety requires the support of a community.
Active Maintenance: Simple prevention relies on continuous action: staying engaged, attending meetings, and actively focusing on recovery steps.
The guys discuss how see through ponchos foil nearly all Japanese convenient store robberies, when being too fat will definitely cost you your donkey privileges, and why it’s so important to know which half of the Jello contains the urine.
Loneliness doesn’t always look like being alone. Sometimes it looks like being a caregiver with a full calendar, a heavy heart, and nobody to hand the weight to. I sit down with psychotherapist and writer Carl Nassar, author of The Village Solution, to name the thing so many of us feel but struggle to explain: we’re exhausted because we’re living without the kind of village humans evolved to rely on.
Carl walks us through how village life used to spread care, work, and emotional support across a whole community and how consumer culture quietly replaced that with isolation, striving, and the promise that the “right stuff” will bring our people near. We talk about why ads hit so hard, why achievement can become its own trap, and why even the hero’s journey makes more sense when the real ending is a return to belonging. We even bring in Winnie the Pooh and Christopher Robin as a surprisingly accurate map for building a community that accepts us the way we are.
We also get practical about what to do when grief, trauma, or dementia caregiving makes you feel cut off. Carl shares what “village support” actually looks like today, from therapy and grief circles to intentionally showing up for a small group every week and letting care spill into real life. We close with two grounded tools you can start practicing right now: stillness and compassion, the qualities that make it safer to be honest and easier to be together.
If this conversation helps you feel a little less alone, subscribe, share it with someone who needs a village, and leave a review so more caregivers and grievers can find Patty’s Place.
Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we'll talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. I named this podcast in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia about two years ago. I'm your host, Lisa, and we will talk about things that help us not feel so alone today. So grab your cup of tea, your cup of coffee, or if you're having that really bad day, your glass of wine, and come join us. So today we have our guest is Carl Nassar. He is a psychotherapist, author of The Village Solution, and a regular contributor to psychology today and the Joseph Campbell Foundation. So welcome, Carl, to Patty's Place. Yes, thank you for having me. I'm very glad to be here, Sydney, with you. Yes, I'm I'm excited to uh to talk to you about all this. One of the things that I noticed uh when I was looking up all your information, you have a thing that says why you're exhausted and why it's not your fault. Yes, I do. Yes, so can you can we explore that a little bit? Because I feel exhausted a lot. Absolutely.
Why Modern Life Feels Exhausting
1:13
Happy to do it. Ties well into the theme you brought up about loneliness. You know, for we humans have been on this planet for some two million years. And over the course of that two million years, for almost the almost the entirety of that time, we lived in villages. We lived in these places where if we were born into a village, if if you'd been born into a village, Lisa, there'd have been 46 eyes lovingly looking at you. There'd be 46 pairs of hands ready to scoop you up. When you cried, your cry would be responded to in 25 seconds or less. You'd be held close for nine hours a day. As you grew up in that village setting, you would work collectively with your fellow villagers. You would together work to meet all your needs. And because you're working together, you'd only have to work for three, four hours a day. And by the end of that day, uh, you know, this was a village that would realize that work was in the service of life, not the other way around. And so once that work was done, the day would open wide. And what would you do at that time? Well, someone might start singing and song would rise in the air. You'd linger around meals for a long time, swapping stories. Some would start a fire at night and you'd talk about the origins of the stars together. And there was all this time to be, to connect, to be with each other. But starting some 20,000 years ago, toward the end of the last great toward the end of the last great ice age, and carrying forward until about 500 years ago, the villages began to slowly disappear. And 500 years ago, they began to disappear at a remarkably fast pace. Until today, they're pretty much all but gone. The ones that remain live on the edge of extinction. And what's replaced them, what's stepped in in their place, is consumer culture. So when you and I arrive into the world, you know, um, we arrive with minds still wired by two million years of evolution. So our minds, when we're born, look around and say, hey, my village should be here. I'm ready to be held in 25 seconds or less when I cry. I'm ready for 46 people to greet me. But when we show up in this world, that's not what we get at all. We, to our amazement, there's just two people here, right? Our parents. And they're worn thin because these two people alone are being asked to do what a whole village once did. They must meet all the needs of life on their own. And so it's early mornings to work, uh, evenings spent picking up groceries, cooking meals, doing dishes, folding laundry, paying bills. So at the end of the day, you arrive, um, you know, collapsed in front of a TV, and that's even before, but even before we're born, right? And then we arrive on the scene with all the emotional, relational needs of a child. There's no way our parents can give us what a village once did. Right? So from a very early age, we cry from our cribs, and sometimes no one comes. Sometimes someone comes worn thin. But either way, we know uh what our what our little heart needs isn't met. And what arrives in its place is somewhat of a loneliness, uh quiet that sort of creeps in under our bedroom door and arrives beside our crib and doesn't leave. So from a very early age, we're be we're beginning to realize we're gonna have to figure out how to do this life together, do this life on our own. It's a very big shift in this culture where everyone is asked to do an individual work life, an individual home life, an individual, you know, life, as opposed to what it used to be, where we did things collectively together. So the exhaustion we feel is the exhaustion of living in a way that really we're not have not evolved to live in, which is doing everything on our own by ourselves, as opposed to doing things collectively as a shared group. When
Belonging And The Consumer Culture Trap
5:05
you were talking, it made me think of when I was in Ireland two years ago. And I feel like uh when I was there, I felt like I was part of something. I felt like I was part of the villages and things because um the time was just so much more relaxed and like just even going with the pubs and stuff. And I'm not even talking about the drinking part, you know, just being there. Yeah, I just that's what it reminded me of instantly. Like when I was in Ireland, you know, and I that's how I felt. I felt so connected there with that. Well, that's right. I mean, that's so that's so much our wiring. It's so innate in us to to want to belong, to want to be a part of, to want to connect with, you know, and what's remarkable about this is this is the very thing that consumer culture exploits when we're young. Because think about when we're really small, um, and consumer culture arrives with two million advertisers and a trillion dollar budget every year. And what do these ads sell us on? They're not selling us the product, they're selling us the promise this product will bring our people near. Right? You look at the ad for, say, uh hamburger helper, right? A mom and daughter sitting in the kitchen kind of distant. Mom rips open the hamburger helper package, yeah, and what happens? Poof, presto in an instant. Right. They're in their dining room, mom and dad leaning forward, daughter leaning with them, you know, and the promise is hey, tear open that hamburger helper, and you know, there's your family right there around you. And if you watch the ads, whether it's McDonald's or Kentucky Fried Chicken or ads for Frisbee's, you know, ads for the Hot Wheels, right? You're alone in your room, all of a sudden you click the Hot Wheel pieces together, and what happens? The lonely room transforms, friends appear, racing cars together, right? Ads just sell us on this promise. They say, Look, you know why your people aren't here? You just don't have the right stuff. If you just have the hamburger helper, if you just have the Hot Wheels set, your people will show up. And the rub is, as children, this is what we know in the field of psychology, children believe advertisers the same way they believe their parents and their teachers. So children actually believe a hamburger helper will bring your family near, Hot Wheels will bring your friends into your bedroom. And so we start to get hooked on this idea if I could just get the right stuff, my people will come. And this is the sort of this is consumer culture's trick. It knows we long for our people. And so it uses that and exploits that to get us hooked on consumption. And it does the same thing actually to get us hooked on on producing. Because we get to school age, we go to school, teachers start to say, hey, succeed, achieve, get a perfect score. We come home with that Red A plus, and our parents go, great job, and they're proud of us. We come home with a report card full of them. Our parents go, look at that. And they take us out for ice cream. We go, look, this might work. Yeah. Achieve really well, people will notice me, like give me attention, I'll finally be seen, my people will appear. And so early on in life, we get hooked on this, you know, uh acquiring stuff and achieving, um, really, you know, fueling consumer culture. Um, but it's really just a trick, it's a treadmill. It never actually takes us where we want to go to that pub in Ireland where we feel like, hey, there I am, I belong here. That's
The Hero’s Journey Back To Village
8:32
right. Yes, I I belong here. Uh and when you're talking about the village, I read one of your articles, the hidden truth in every hero's journey, what Christopher Robin, Winnie the Pooh, and Joseph Campbell teaches us. Can you talk about that with Winnie the Pooh and the Village? Because I I really enjoyed that. No, I appreciate that. Yeah, it's uh uh I appreciate reading the article, and it's a charming story, so thanks for asking. Yeah. Yeah. You know, in 1949, Joseph Campbell wrote a book called The Hero with a Thousand Faces. Okay. And the premise of his book was this: that in every great story, you'll find as you'll find this similar narrative. Whether you're opening a children's book, whether you're opening a sci-fi trilogy, whether you're reading a script for a Hollywood blockbuster, in all of them, the same thread, the same narrative is woven through it. And he called it the hero's journey. And it has three parts. The hero departs, he leaves his ordinary life, the hero transforms, he goes on some journey that changes him, then the hero returns. And in our culture, we tend to think of this as in a very individual individualistic way. We think of, you know, the common townsfolk who leaves the town, goes out to slay the dragon, along the way, grows and becomes somebody bigger than he was before, and returns home. And on his return, what does he get? He gets the princess's hand in marriage. Or he's handed the big pot of gold, or the crown is placed on his head. And we think of it as a story of individual triumph. But really, I think so many of these heroes' journeys really don't aren't about ending in individual glory. They're much more about the return to the village. Um I'll explain what I mean using using that story of Christopher Robin and Winnie the Pooh. Right? I read those, my parents read those stories to me when I was three years old as bedtime stories. So they're they're very familiar to me. In fact, the books are sitting here in my office on a bookshelf not too far from me right now. But the story of Christopher Robin, it begins with really sadness. It's a story of a young boy who's left alone in his room by parents who are busy with social engagements and work commitments. He doesn't have aunts or uncles around. And what does he do? He does what children do that is just remarkable. He dreams up the world he wants to be a part of, right? He dreams up this hundred-acre wood and he fills it with the stuffed animals to come alive. Right? So you've got Piglet and his constant worry, you've got rabbit and his need for order, you've got Tigger and the boundless energy, and of course you have Winnie the Pooh, and who I think sort of embodies stillness and compassion because he kind of moves to the world with a honey, honey sort of sweetness. And what happens uh in the Hundred Acre Wood with Christopher Robin and his imagined friends? Well, remarkably, they just go on small adventures together, right? They find Eeyore's tail and stick it back on Eeyore, or Pooh goes to Rabbit's house, eats too much honey, gets stuck in his hole, stuck on the way out in Rabbit's hole, and they have to pull them out together. Um, you know, or they chase imaginary heffalumps and woozles. But what happens along the way in these adventures? Well, what happens is they start to belong to each other. They come together and they become a village of sorts. And that's really, I think, the story of Winnipeg Pooh. It's the story of this lonely boy who dreams up a village and then becomes a part of that village he dreams up of. And that I think is really the journey, the real hero's journey for all of us to take. That we arrive here in the isolation of consumer culture. Uh, and we need to find our way back to our own villages, to that place of belonging, to our own Irish pubs where we feel, ah, I've arrived, I'm here. Like in cheers, when Norm arrives and cheers, and they all go, Norm! He's known, he's home, right? Now, I'm not suggesting the pub is our true village. Right, right. But thematically we get the idea, right? Right. Well,
Grief, Caregiving, And Shared Support
12:29
and in terms of when um, you know, when you're a caregiver or you're going through an illness or even any type of traumatic event, you do feel very lonely. And to find that village of somebody that understands you, like I always think of when you're talking about Winnie the Pooh, how they always say Eeyore kind of basically had he was depressed, but his friends accepted him that way, you know. Right, right. You know, like they didn't try to make him say you have to be positive. They just they comforted him when he could, right, you know, with it. And you talk about too how we hear a lot about how loneliness and the mental health crisis, like how do we how do we go about like how do we find those villages of the people that just kind of they get us, you know, and you feel accepted. Yeah. So there's two things you said I want to res I want to I want to talk about. One is something really important that you shared, which is grief and isolation, because as you pointed out, or loss and isolation, or trauma and isolation, and how difficult that is, because we're really not wired to go through these things alone. That's just not how we're wired as humans. I mean, the way it used to work in in you know villages of long ago, even in even in villages today, the few that remain, in many of them, is you know, if you were a young child and we'll just say your your father had died, for example, you know, what would happen would be, you know, the village would lay down everything. If someone was sharpening a spear, they'd put the spear down. If someone was cooking, they'd stop the cooking. And if someone was weaving, they'd stop weaving. And they'd come together and they'd form a circle around you. And they'd arrive and they'd stay. Not just for hours, but sometimes for days, sometimes for weeks. And they wouldn't stay and ask anything of you, much as you know, no one asked anything of Eeyore. They would stay, right? They would stay and they just hold this still space where it would be whatever comes up is welcome here. And they'd hold this compassionate space where you could feel them saying, We don't want you carrying this alone. This is too much for you to bear by yourself. We want to be here to carry this with you. And in that space, what could happen? Well, that child's grief, that child's sadness, that child's loss could start to just bubble up and erupt out of them because they would know there was room for it. It was a welcome there. And they could just allow this to move through them. Now, this isn't some instant process where after three days of crying, they're fine, their father's gone, it's no problem, right? It's just a process. But there is that felt sense of you don't have to carry this alone. We will carry this together. And the relief that comes from knowing someone's here to hold me, to pick me up and keep and swoop me into their arms and let me know I don't have to go through this by myself is is transformative in terms of our capacity to go through grief. And we've in many ways lost that in our culture. Yes, we have. And in many ways, modern day therapy is really an attempt to recreate what the villages already had. You know, that really is in some ways what the firelight of therapy is, right? The firelight of therapy is very much come into this office, let me hold a still open space for you. And in this space, let me support the um what's the word? The catharsis of what's inside you. Let it come on out of you, saying, Let me hold it with you so you don't have to hold it alone. Um, and so you know, we do have these venues in our modern culture where we try to find spaces where this can happen. It's just not everywhere. It's a little more hidden in our culture. Yeah. You can find it in a therapy office, you might find it in a church, you might find it in an AA group, you might find it in a grief circle. They're there, but our culture doesn't point to them, right? What does our culture point to? The headlines say, look at the powerful person, look at the rich person, right? Yeah. They don't, there's never a headline that says, you know, uh, man sits beside grieving woman, puts arm around her, says nothing. That's never headline news, right? No. And yet it's the most important thing we can do for each other. It is. So, you know, that's why it's hard, it's hard to remember, but it's still there, those those places where people want to sit with us in our grief, in our trauma, in our loss. And it's really important we find those places so that we don't have to go through them alone. It it is, because you do feel very alone, whether you're in that caregiving process or when that your loved one dies, you do. Even when you're in a room full of people who have all lost the same person, you still feel alone because you're trying then to figure out who you are after that person has passed, or who you are as a caregiver, because your life is turned completely upside down. And and you do, you just you feel very lost and alone through all of it with that. And I think it's important for people to be able to say it's okay to ask for help, and I think that's part of finding your village, because I think we think it it makes us not strong if we ask for help. And absolutely. And and we need to ask for help. It's I mean, it's hard, it's hard to do it, but you you have to in order to take care of yourself with it.
Building Your Own Village In Real Life
17:38
So do you think it's fixable, this loneliness and finding the village? Like how do we find our way back to each other? Yeah, you know, I mean, look, you know, I I think in many ways the way back is much easier than we imagine it to be. Uh, because I think it's inside of us already. As you said, you walked in that pub and there it was, and you knew I have a sense of belonging here. It's it's it's innate in us to want it, it's innate in us when we feel it to want more of it. It's just the fact that the culture sort of hides these places from us. They're not obvious or evident to us. And you know, my my invitation to people is to is to try something. You know, be try something that requires, you know, a little bit of courage, a little bit of bravery, but but take the risk, right? See if you can find a group of five, six, seven, up to twelve people, you know, perhaps an interpersonal processing group in a therapist's office, as one example of many, you know, and set aside three hours a week to sit down together as that group and just uh do what the culture doesn't allow us to do. You just pointed out the culture doesn't allow us to do. Because as you just said, in some ways, right, we live in a culture that really um looks for positivity, looks for cheerfulness, uh, wants us to just be okay. How are you? I'm fine. Right. Right? You know, um and enter this group and go ahead and let's have the courage to just speak our truth, to arrive with vulnerability, to arrive, you know, with willingness to share those soft, tender places inside of us, and then to greet each other in that space with soft eyes and tender hearts, so that it becomes a space where you know we do form that village circle where stillness and compassion can grow. Uh and you know, um, from that space, you know, when I brought that up to someone, they said, Well, that's not realistic. Nobody has three hours a week to just spend sitting down with each other. We're all really busy. And I said, Well, in some ways that's true, but in other ways, think about this, right? I mean, the most popular sport in America is football, right? And most people will find three hours a week to sit down and watch a football game every Sunday. Yeah, and sometimes on Thursday and Monday. That's right. Yeah. That's right. You know, so if you could find three hours to watch a football game, I'm sure we can find each three hours to sit with each other. Because once we start, as soon as we start and we feel that sense of place, that sense of belonging, that sense of, oh, this is like walking into cheers and having everybody say norm, we feel welcome here. We want to go back. It pulls us to go back, you know, and to just sit in that space with those people to get to know each other's stories, but also to get to know each other's hearts. Because what starts to evolve after a certain amount of time of sitting in a group like that is we naturally want to extend our care to each other outside that group. We start to say, what would it look like if we cared for each other outside those three hours each week? And we decide, hey, let's bring let's bring soups to each other when someone's sick. Um let's offer, let's show up at 2 a.m. when someone's in crisis and needs child care. Let's call on Tuesday morning and say, Lisa, how are you? I've been thinking about you. Are you okay? Um we just start to want to do that for each other. And as soon as we start to do just those simple things, show up three hours a week to talk openly and start to extend that care into every everyday life, just that alone has taken us back to at least some version of that village. Because all of a sudden we're not living lives all by ourselves. There are lives that have begun to be woven into each other, that have begun to be woven together. Our sense of security stops coming from just trying to build that individual pile of wealth and starts to come more and more from I've got you because you got me, and we've got each other, we've got each other covered here. Uh, you know, and that safety starts to settle in as well. Now, you know, go ahead. You jumped. I was gonna say, what do you say to somebody who isn't, they say maybe they're not a group joiner? You know, like how about if they are around people that, you know, maybe they feel the village is is a couple dogs or a few cats, or or maybe for them it's walking, you know, walking uh in nature. That's where they feel, you know, their safety or their comfort. Absolutely. So a couple things I'm glad you brought that up. So a couple things about that. You know, I think um people have brought this up. Well, that feels like too much for me. I don't think I want to sit down with a group of people for Three hours. I think that freaks me out. You know? Well, then find the group of people you join, just doing something that's shared, right? If you like to hike in the woods, find the hiking group, right? If you like to play pickleball, find the pickleball group, right? At least begin in that way. Begin to form those communities that center around the things you already love that are easy to join and use that as the starting point to start to build those connections. You know, and then as you spend time with those people, just start to linger a little bit more, start to lounge a little bit more. Don't hurry off at the end of the pickleball game or the end of the hike if you don't have to. You know, um, so that you make time for each other and just allow the connection to happen in that slow, easy space of just being with each other. Well, and too, and when you're going through, like you you said, that we're not wired for the trauma and everything. When you are going through, whether it's a caregiver or or it's grief, to allow yourself that time, even if it is an hour or two playing pickleball or going for a hike, it's important to help to help you with your mental health with all of that. Even though we we think we should be more productive, but absolutely. It's the funny thing, right? The time we most need to slow down is when we're most anxious. We don't think we can. Yes. Right? The time we mostly do the people is the time where we feel like nobody's gonna want me the way I am right now, right? You know, because you know, sometimes we feel like, man, I'm just in a I'm just sad right now, nobody's gonna want to be around me. If we can find those, if we can find those people who are comfortable with just whoever we are, as you know, the uh the folks in the poof were with Bior. If we can find those people that are just okay with us being that way, suddenly we feel okay with being that way, right? Because a real important part of what we really need so much of is compassion. And what is compassion at the heart of it all? Well, compassion is just the ability to keep our heart open to whatever is rising up, to whatever life's bringing in this moment. Maybe it's joy, maybe it's beauty, but maybe it's suffering. And so, you know, when we arrive with compassion or somebody meets us with compassion, and we're in a place of sadness, we go, oh, it's okay to be sad. And suddenly, whew, I'm not fighting my sadness anymore. It's just okay that I'm here. And the relief of being okay with where we are is is what we all need all the time. My mom used to, for her with her really good friends, when they would say, Oh, I'm fine, and she knew stuff was going on, she'd look at them and go, No, you're not. You're not fine. Now tell me what's wrong. She would be like That's right, go mom, let you go, right? Like, come on, let's be real with each other here, right? We're only on this planet for a little bit of time. Right. The least we can do with this time together is be willing and willing to tell each other the truth so that we can feel like we're all going through this truth together. Yeah, and I think that's why people kind of came to her because she, you know, she was that safe space for people. You know, she didn't she she didn't expect people to be happy all the time. You know, she I don't want to say she embraced the sadness, but it didn't bother her if people were sad. You know. That's the way to live. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I get the sense, I get the sense you've got that in you too, Lisa. Uh well, yeah, be you know. Well, my mom had a lot of tragedies growing up and stuff, so I think she just knew that that was part of life, you know. Uh-huh. So that that's it, right? It's part of all our lives, right? Nobody nobody gets nobody escapes this life free from trauma, free from loss, free from grief. Yeah, you know, as much as we'd like that to happen, that's just not the reality of it.
Stillness, Compassion, And Being Present
25:37
With it You also say on the path home, we need we need two companions, stillness and compassion. Why do you why do you say those two? You know, I'll tell you what, these there are these researchers, and what they did was they studied methods to wholeness. Um, like what are the things that that lead us to a sense of wholeness within ourselves, that lead us to a sense of wholeness together, a sense of being connected to each other. And what they did was they studied um mythic traditions that lent themselves, that led to wholeness. They studied depth psychologies, they studied theories of counseling, and they metaphorically pulled out a scalpel and cut open this um these deaf psychology, they cut open the theory of counseling, they cut open the spiritual tradition, uh, and they said, what is it inside of these things that leads people to wholeness? And what they found in many ways amazed them. There were just two elements, two common factors, two gentle forces, I call them two golden threads, that they found inside every one of these methods. And they were stillness and compassion. That whenever stillness and compassion were present, these methods led to wholeness. And when they were absent, they didn't. And um, you know, uh researchers studying just psychology alone found out that it doesn't really matter what modality your therapist practices, as long as they hold a still compassionate stance, um, the therapy tends to be quite effective. It matters far more than any method they might use. And so, you know, let me just say, what are stillness, what are compassion, right? So what are they? What do they mean, right? And by stillness, what I mean is the ability to show up in this moment, right here, right now, free from judgment, free from expectation, just open, just curious, huh? What is this moment going to bring me? What's coming here? Right? And then there is compassion, which is once we arrive in this moment, keeping our heart wide open to it, right? To whatever life is bringing, the beauty, the suffering, so that if we arrive in this moment and find our own pain, we stay open to it. If we arrive in this moment and see pain in the stranger's eyes, we stay open to that. If we arrive in this moment and see the loneliness in a loved one's um stance, we stay open to that as well. And you know what um and what we find when we feel this still compassion sense is hey, I want to keep living this way. When we arrive in those moments, we've all had those moments, right, where we just feel, ah, I'm just right here in this very still moment, my heart is wide open. We feel like, man, if I could just stay here, this would be great. This would be so good. I would love to just be here all the time. That's how I felt in Ireland, not just in the pub. Like I didn't want to come home. Right. I just it was it was it was the stillness and it was the beauty, and it just uh yeah, I just felt so good there. I was like, do I have to come home? I was right, right. You know, and it's funny because these are in many ways the counter forces to of consumer culture, right? Consumer culture promotes, you know, striving, achieving, accumulating, right? Those are the forces that drive consumer culture. And yet the forces that really have us feel settled, that bring us back to ourselves, that bring us back to each other, that bring us back to the village, are just being more still, more compassionate. And the wonderful thing about stillness and compassion is they are innate in who we are, unlike striving and you know, accumulating, which in some ways are taught to us by the culture. Stillness and compassion are are innate in all of us from the time we arrived. And so the work for us really is in many ways, how do we pull them out from inside of ourselves so we can hold hands with them in our everyday lives? And of course I can talk about that, but I just wanted to get to that space. And I think that's hard for people because it's scary to be still. It's it's much easier to be busy, busy, busy and not be still and face what whatever it is that's going on because it's it's hard. That's right. If I stop, everything that I've been running from, everything that I've been hurrying away from will finally catch up to me. That's the fear, right? And as some of my clients would say, if I start crying, I'm gonna cry forever. Right. So don't get me to start crying right now, because you don't want to see me cry forever, and I don't want to see me cry forever. And I'm saying, no, no, no, that's not how it works. You know, slow down, come in this moment. If the tears come, I'll hold them with you. And don't worry. You know, the crying will just you'll there'll be a lightness that comes as you start to empty that bucket that's been that's been filled up inside of you.
Dementia Lessons, Resources, And Closing
30:21
The one thing that I did learn uh with my mom with her dementia is that people who have dementia, Alzheimer's, they truly do live in that moment because that is all they know. Right. So being there with her, I learned more and more how to be present in that moment because one moment she you know, I would joke with her. She'd be like, she was hot, and then two minutes later she was cold. I'd be like, You're hot, cold, hot, cold, you know. Um but I learned more how to be mindful and to be in that moment with her because that was the only moment I had with that. Right. You know, and it is really hard to do in general to find that, but by being mindful, you can kind of try to find your village again. And your book, The Village Solution, it is on your website, correct? Yes, there's a sample chapter there. Okay. And now is it available to purchase anywhere? Not yet. It's uh not quite yet in print. It's coming soon, but it's not out yet. Okay. Um so if people wanted to learn more about all this, they can go to your website, correct? Yes, the website has sample chapters, um, it has uh free free hour talks people can attend. Uh there's uh sign up for a newsletter. Uh there's there's a fair bit there for people to to learn more. Okay. And it's Carl Nassar.com slash landing. Is that correct? Or is that you can just do carlnassar.com. Okay. That'll work. That'll get them right there. That'll get them right there for that. And then and you also have a lot of that's where I found a lot of your articles, which I thought were very interesting as well. Yeah. Because you've been in psychology today for a lot of times, correct? Yeah, for a couple of years I've been writing a column, call a regular column for them. Oh, okay. So yeah, you can uh people can get your your um your articles and that. Uh I was talking earlier. Have you speaking of Winnie the Pooh, but did you ever read the the Tao of Pooh and the Tay of Piglet? The Tao of Pooh is sitting just across from me over here. Okay. Very familiar with it. I never did pick up the second book. Okay. I must admit to not having the second one. But uh I bought that back, I think, in the early 90s, was it when it first came out? Yeah. Yeah. Loved that book. I absolutely fell in love with it. Yeah. People can learn a lot from Winnie the Pooh. I agree. Yeah. I'm right there with you. Yeah. Yes. So, you know, and even though we're feeling lonely, we need to find our village, whoever they are. That's right. Whether it's a pig and a bunny and a bear and a bouncing tigger. Um, you know, we whatever, whatever eclectic set of characters it takes, finding our way back to each other is what matters so much. Yes, and that can help you through all of the hard times in life for it. Absolutely. Thank you so much for joining us. I've learned so much today. Yeah, I really enjoyed my time with you. Thanks, Lisa, for having me on and for having the show in the first place. And what a beautiful way to honor your mother. Well, thank you. So, well, I hope everybody has enjoyed this episode. Hopefully, we can help you find your village. Uh so uh please make sure you leave a review, like us, subscribe to us on YouTube, and hopefully you enjoyed your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or if you had that really bad day, a glass of wine, and just know you are not alone. And join us for another edition of Patty's Place.
In this episode, Dr. John rejoins Mike and Glenn at the coffee shop to continue their deep dive into alcoholism, sharing pivotal moments from his journey and breaking down the true nature of addiction, connection, and relapse.
Redefining the “ISM”
Dr. John challenges the traditional view of alcoholism, stating that he was “born scared” and that alcohol itself didn’t cause his disease. Instead, he describes alcoholism as an “ISM”—a universal, internal yearning to fill an emotional void.
The Universal Void: Humans are the only creatures on Earth who torment themselves trying to fill this emptiness.
The Admission Tickets: The “ISM” manifests differently for everyone. There are hundreds of 12-step programs identical to AA; they simply have different “admission tickets” (e.g., alcohol, shopping, eating).
Religion vs. Spirituality:
“Religion fills the void. Spirituality teaches us to embrace the void.” While religion relies on a set of rules, spirituality is about building a strong relationship with something greater. Dr. John doesn’t label himself as “happy, joyous, and free”—rather, he views his ISM as God continuously poking his void, reminding him it is a never-ending process.
The Power of Connection
The core message of the episode is that intellect alone cannot cure addiction. True transformation happens through human-to-human interaction.
Wounded Healers: Healing occurs when the wounded heal the wounded. As the famous quote goes: “The opposite of addiction is connection.”
The Ultimate Need: Dr. John shares a powerful story about his dog, Samantha, who taught him how to give unconditional love. He concludes that giving love is our only true need, summarizing it as: “You can’t keep it if you don’t give it away.”
Heaven on Earth: For Dr. John, heaven is pouring yourself into someone else. “I don’t know what heaven is, but the closest I’ve come to is when I lose myself in another.”
The “We” of AA: Glenn and Dr. John agree that Alcoholics Anonymous works strictly because of the “We.” We cannot see our own blind spots without others.
The Reality of Relapse
The conversation shifts to a cautionary tale from John, who shared his experience with relapse, proving that “every bottom has a trap door.”
Dr. John emphasizes that triggers are just excuses—relapse is a calculated choice where a person thinks through the action and does it anyway. He breaks down relapse into three distinct stages: Emotional, Mental, and Physical.
The 5 Steps to John’s Relapse:
Complacency: Becoming bored and complacent.
Distraction: Losing focus on recovery.
Skipping Meetings: Halting attendance.
Loss of Mentorship: His sponsor moved away.
Isolation: He stopped connecting with his own sponsees as they drifted.
Ultimately, it was his gradual movement away from the program that caused the relapse. Despite this, the hosts emphasize a philosophy of grace: hate the sin, love the sinner.
Advice for the Newcomer: The “Karate Kid” Metaphor
Dr. John offers a grounded, realistic perspective for anyone new to recovery. He reminds them that “AA is not a feel-good program; it is a get-well program.” Life is still going to be life, and while medical schools don’t teach spirituality, it is readily available in AA as the best therapy on the planet.
To close, Dr. John shares a “must-listen” metaphor inspired by The Karate Kid. Just like Daniel Larusso learning martial arts from Mr. Miyagi, a newcomer in recovery must possess three essential qualities:
Openness
Willingness
Honesty
Final Takeaway
Glenn notes that through this program, there is no situation in life he cannot get through sober. Because alcohol remains “cunning, baffling, and powerful,” the episode concludes with a call to move forward into today with confidence, balanced by cautiousness.
The guys discuss why you should definitely eliminate salmon from your diet if you’re allergic to cocaine, when the right window treatments can prevent you from accidentally keistering an outdated brick phone, and how a noise cancelling shed next to a bus stop is all but irrelevant if you can’t convince your wife to “list it”.
Some stories change you while you’re listening to them. This is one of those episodes.
In Episode 80 of AMP’D UP211, I sit down with author, amputee, and sepsis survivor Katy Grainger for an incredibly honest conversation about trauma, survival, identity, and rebuilding a life after everything changes. Many people know Katy’s story from the medical event that led to the loss of both of her legs and fingers, but this conversation goes much deeper. We talk about the emotional aftermath, the process of writing her powerful new memoir Finding Solid Footing: Thriving Beyond the Unimaginable, and what it was like to revisit some of the darkest moments of her life to help others heal through her words.
This episode is not just about limb loss. It’s about purpose, resilience, fear, reinvention, and the difficult work of finding yourself again after life takes a direction you never saw coming. Katy speaks with incredible vulnerability about grief, recovery, motherhood, faith, and the emotional reconstruction that happens long after the physical healing begins. If you’ve ever faced adversity, struggled with change, or wondered how people find the strength to move forward after devastating circumstances, this conversation will stay with you.
AMP’D UP211 exists to tell authentic stories from the amputee and disability community while breaking down stereotypes and showing the humanity behind these journeys. Whether you are an amputee, a caregiver, someone navigating trauma, or simply looking for perspective and inspiration, Episode 80 with Katy Grainger is a conversation you do not want to miss.
We sit down with Dr. Warren Wong to rethink what dementia care should look like when the goal is love, dignity, and real quality of life for both the person living with memory loss and the caregiver. We share hard truths about emergencies, wandering, and burnout, plus practical ways to build trust and get meaningful support instead of trying to white knuckle it alone. • Dr. Wong’s journey into geriatrics and the PACE model for keeping seniors in the community • Why “call 911” can trigger hospitalization and loss of independence for frail older adults • Cultural expectations and caregiver guilt that block families from asking for help • Our personal story of refusal to test, crisis diagnosis, and the overwhelm of finding memory care • Trust building, routine resistance, and the green light yellow light red light days • Why showering can be terrifying and how to approach care with more safety • Medicare GUIDE, caregiver training, respite options, and 24 7 dementia support • Care navigation versus care coordination and why checklists are not enough • Dementia villages, memory cafes, and social connection as part of care • “Doing to” versus “doing for” versus “doing with” as a dignity framework • Wandering risk and why the first 24 hours matter Make sure you leave us a review or subscribe to our YouTube channel
Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we're going to talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. This podcast is in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia about two and a half years ago now. I'm your host, Lisa, and this is a place where you'll know that you're not alone. So grab your cup of tea, your cup of coffee, or if you're having a really bad day, a glass of wine, and we will get talking today. Today I'm very excited about our guest. It's Dr. Warren Wong out of uh he's a clinical professor with the University of Hawaii School of Medicine. Uh, and you focus on geriatric services uh with in design for the senior segmentation. So I'm very excited. Thank you for being here today.
SPEAKER_00
0:48
Thanks so much, Lisa. I'm happy to be on Patty's place.
SPEAKER_02
0:52
Yes, I think there's just so much to talk about. Uh you're also the founder of geriatric services at Kaiser Permente in Hawaii, is that correct?
SPEAKER_00
1:02
That's right. And uh I'm uh I'm retired from Kaiser, but uh I was part of the National Planning Committee.
SPEAKER_02
1:08
So okay.
Dr Wong’s Path To Geriatrics
SPEAKER_02
1:10
Well, can you tell us a little bit about your background? Like what drew you to specialize in geriatric medicine.
SPEAKER_00
1:17
Well, you know, I've been at it for uh 40 years, and um even before I ever applied to med school, um I was really drawn to care of seniors. And uh it was a way of both serving the community that I I um felt uh affinity to that I'm Chinese American and I felt a strong affinity to um uh uh my uh hometown, Chinatown, San Francisco, Chinatown. And uh there were some very uh innovative things being done back then, and I was thrilled to um experience the working in in a team with one of the original PACE sites, or the actual original PACE site uh called Onlock in San Francisco. And I just really enjoyed the um the work, the um more holistic way of providing care for seniors, not just putting them in nursing
How PACE Keeps Seniors Home
SPEAKER_00
2:19
homes. So and what what is the PACE program The PACE program is a national uh program. It started in San Francisco at Onlock. Onlock is Chinese for peace and happiness. And it's a program that uh people enroll in and get all their services, both traditional Medicare services and an expanded set of support services, uh, while continuing to live in the community. Um and there's a lot of emphasis on them being at a day health center uh to get services during the day. Uh during while they're at the day health center, they uh can get uh physical therapy, a lot of recreational therapy, socialization, and your providers are right there. So uh it would be typical for uh a person to be involved in activities. And if I wanted to see the person, uh that person would just be wheeled into a separate area and we would do uh a short clinic visit. Or once in a while I would just drop by into the activities area and just feel the person's pulse just to make sure that person was doing fine, and that's the work way uh the PACE sites work, they're all across the country now. It's a Medicare benefit for people who qualify, and there are a large number of uh of Medicare um programs across the country, uh PACE programs across the country now.
SPEAKER_02
3:51
Oh, okay.
When 911 Is The Wrong Answer
SPEAKER_02
3:52
And in your opinion, how should healthcare for seniors evolve to better meet their unique needs?
SPEAKER_00
4:00
Well, I think it it must it really needs dramatic change in terms of not just thinking about disease, but thinking about the person, how it impacts the person and how to um to optimally provide you know quality of life, dignity and and and respect for older people. And the uh I'll give you a very specific example of of that, uh Lisa, is that uh you know, throughout the country, you you when you call your physician, they'll it'll pretty much end with the comment if you are have any kind of emergency, please call 911. Right. Well, that doesn't really serve a lot of older people very well. I mean, if you're a frail older person, uh I always like to make the point that if you're frail and elderly, calling 911 can be a one-way, a one-way call. And by that I mean it's invariably that if you're if you're about age of 85 or older, um if you go to the emergency room, there's a 50% chance you're gonna be hospitalized. And once you're hospitalized, there's about a 50% chance you're not gonna go straight back home.
SPEAKER_02
5:19
Oh, I did not know that. Okay.
SPEAKER_00
5:22
Yeah, so um it's not the most supportive way. And uh, you know, a lot of older people say, please don't send me to the emergency room. And there's a lot of reasons for that, and they're legitimate reasons.
SPEAKER_02
5:34
Yeah, I I wasn't aware of that statistics.
Culture Guilt And Asking For Help
SPEAKER_02
5:38
Can we talk a little bit about like cultural expectations and like the language barrier and maybe the prejudice that plays the role for caregivers? I know uh you highlighted this in uh the the your future book coming out that you sent me some information on it. But I think that cultural expectations plays a role in things.
SPEAKER_00
5:59
Yeah. So uh, you know, uh it'd be really great if we talk about the importance of support for caregivers. Um and you know, the whole concept is that uh you you know, the traditional healthcare system, you go to a physician, then you're always expecting a medicine. Uh and of course, as you know, Lisa, uh medicines for all Alzheimer's disease and dementia in general are only modestly effective at most.
SPEAKER_02
6:32
Yes.
SPEAKER_00
6:33
And I like to make the point that the the best medicine for a person who lives with dementia and for the caregiver is to get support. And that's more effective than than uh the the just getting a medicine from your doctor. And there's some cultural aspects of that is in that you know many people uh who are older have uh you know come from different cultures, and getting support uh means a lot of different things. Um a lot of caregivers feel like within their culture that it's their obligation, um and asking for help from other people and imposing that help from other people on a person uh who uh in a frail elder person is is not uh it's not what is expected. It's it's um it's expected within culture that it's done within the family. And um uh I think there are things some things that need to be overcome with that.
SPEAKER_02
7:43
Yeah, I think that is hard because I know that when with my mom when she was in memory care, uh there were, you know, I got to know different family members of other patients, uh other residents, and that came up, you know. The the one woman, she was like, Yeah, she was Hispanic, and she said it was just in the culture that she was supposed to take care of her mom, and she had to fight her brothers because her mom was getting into cars with people she didn't know, you know, and like they just they just kept saying, Well, you can take care of her, and she's like, No, I I can't. I need help. And she struggled with that.
SPEAKER_00
8:18
Yeah, yeah.
Getting A Dementia Diagnosis During COVID
SPEAKER_00
8:20
Why do you think what are your thoughts, uh Lisa? Uh, did you seek out uh help uh in caring for your uh for Patty?
SPEAKER_02
8:30
Well, my mom, I noticed my mom was wasn't herself for quite a while. And I tried to get her help and she refused to go to the doctor. I even had her at our at our primary doctor, uh, who she knew and loved for years. She refused to take the simple little memory test. She just would not take it. Wow. Yeah. She just, and um, I think on some level she knew something wasn't right, but if you brought it up to her, she got very upset. So finally, when she didn't know who my dad and I were in the house, I told my dad, we have to do something. You know, and luckily my parents had done powers of attorney. Uh, and and this was all during COVID as well, of course. And uh, we took my mom to the emergency room with the power of attorney, and you know, they diagnosed her right away with dementia. And uh, she they diagnosed her with moderate to severe. Um, she lived with me for a month, and that as we were trying to find a place for her because they told us we weren't gonna be able to take care of her at home because she was very mobile still, even though which was highly unusual for the state of her dementia. So it you know, it did. It took a while and it was very overwhelming because I was like, I I don't know where to go. What do I do? You know, like what's the best place uh for that uh with that.
SPEAKER_00
9:56
So it's interesting. Um you raised so many points there right away. One point is that um, and that's a whole different subject, but uh how people are so afraid of memory loss. You know, they're afraid of memory loss in a way that they're not afraid of a failing heart or failing kidneys, they're much more afraid of a of a failing brain. And I think uh those kinds of fears actually make the problem worse, not better.
SPEAKER_02
10:28
Yeah, and my dad had a very hard time. He just kept telling me, you know, oh, she's fine, and it's just age. And I was like, something's not right. And so I I struggled for a long time. So in many ways, I feel like I lost my mom years before I actually lost her. You know, because I I could just tell she wasn't and people came to me and said, something's not right with your mom. And I was like, I know, but I can't get her to go, you know, even though as you as you said previously, there's really not a lot of medications, there's not much they can do for it um with that.
Trust Routines And The Green Light Days
SPEAKER_02
11:08
So you talked about too uh that people with dementia, they resist a lot of new routines. So what advice can you give the caregiver for that? Because I I noticed that with my mom about with that.
SPEAKER_00
11:22
Yeah. Well, you know, there's the the emotional dementi dimension to people who are starting to um lose memory, and there's uh less a feeling of comfort and security. So the space that a person feels comfortable becomes smaller and smaller and um and there's more and more uh anxiety about unfamiliar situations. So um uh that that that is um something that uh you know need needs to be um dealt with.
SPEAKER_02
12:08
So um and and I did notice that with my mom, like she didn't want to go out as much, like even to the grocery store where my dad ended up going to the grocery store more and more. Um and then even when she was in memory care, little by little she didn't want to come out of her room anymore. You know, so I I did notice that she just she just didn't want to do it anymore. Like I could tell that's where she felt safe. And you know, uh with that. So would you oh go ahead.
SPEAKER_00
12:43
Well, underneath all that is the subject of trust um and trust, you know, if it's important to build up as much trust as possible. And it's very similar to building trust in a child. You know, if a tr a child trusts you, uh they're willing to do more. And uh trust is something that's really important uh when people are are seeking uh out to um move things along.
SPEAKER_02
13:17
I was gonna say that is very true because there were different times with my mom that I knew she trusted me, even though she didn't know who I was, even in memory care. Uh she would get very upset with showers. She she did not like getting showers, and she would like get so upset. And if I was there, she would like grab onto my hand and be like, please don't leave me, please don't leave me. And and I didn't. And I it sometimes it took me over an hour to calm her down with things, but it was like I knew she trusted me.
SPEAKER_00
13:50
So yeah, and it's really interesting that uh, you know, there's a lot of uncertainty when you're taking care of a person uh who has uh uh dementia or Alzheimer's disease, and every day is different. There may be a day in which everything seems fine, and it's it's a green light for things, and other days in which it's a yellow light, and other days in which it's a red light. When it's a red light, you may as well not try. Uh the skill is when it's a yellow light and turning that yellow light to a green light, and sometimes what you find is that you can't get things done, but sometimes, you know, for whatever reason somebody else can get things done, which I which gets back to the whole issue of why support is so important and getting different people to help out.
SPEAKER_02
14:48
Yeah, because sometimes uh I used to be able to get my mom to change her her pants when she'd have accidents, and then after a while I she wouldn't let me do it, but a caregiver could do it for her, you know, with it, the ones that she knew and she liked uh with that. Uh do you do you have any idea?
SPEAKER_00
15:08
The really things in life really change uh when a support system uh gets put in place. And sometimes you may be the most familiar person and less likely less able to get things done than someone who's less familiar, but somehow seems to be in a different role. Um so that's why it takes a whole team.
SPEAKER_02
15:33
Yeah, it definitely does. Do you have any insight as to why people with dementia don't like to take showers? Like on the medical side of it?
SPEAKER_00
15:44
Well, uh, you know, um that is a very common um problem. And my own personal opinion is that it's it's it's a very um it's it it's not it's in the more in the primitive areas of the brain about the relationship between living in water and and fear of water. And uh that uh being in an environment that uh being surrounded by water is something that uh people start to feel a fear of.
SPEAKER_02
16:29
Well, my mom always had a fear of water, so that would explain a lot for my mom. Uh with that. And and you mentioned before that it takes a village, and I know that's uh one of your is that the gonna be the title of your book, or is that was the title of the one chapter? So let's talk about you have a book coming out soon.
SPEAKER_00
16:47
It's it's a theme in that one chapter. I think the title of my book uh will relate it, relate will relate to gold, G-O-L-D, which is an acronym for for getting older with love and dignity. And uh, you know, when you talk about the healthcare system, uh, does it really help people get older with love and dignity? I would say if you look at the way things are actually done, um, you know, in some ways yes, but in many ways no.
SPEAKER_02
17:20
I would agree with that. Uh and you have a lot of information uh that you had sent
Medicare GUIDE And 24 7 Support
SPEAKER_02
17:26
me. So you said that there's some uh Medicare has some new initiative guide. Where could people find some of that? Because that's very overwhelming too with Medicare.
SPEAKER_00
17:40
Yeah, so um there's a new uh program uh from Medicare called Guide, G-U-I-D-E. And uh it's not available everywhere, but it uh was created because there was a broad understanding that uh the traditional healthcare system doesn't really provide for the needs of people who have dementia, uh, especially as it gets more severe. And what the guide program, and you need to uh do a little bit of a search for the Medicare guide program, and they will actually tell you sites in which it's offered. It's only offered via traditional Medicare fee for service, which means that if you have a Medicare Advantage plan, uh they won't offer it. But it's being rolled out across the country, and what it does is it does something that the healthcare system doesn't do now. Uh, for instance, one thing it will do for is that 24 hours a day, it will provide uh uh on-call services. So if you have any question, somebody is on the other end of the line who actually knows the person's record and history and has expertise in dementia care, and that's 24-7. And then uh for certain people who qualify, they will actually get some in-home services as well. Oh, so that is an innovative program, yeah, that's being um rolled out across the United States, but it's not uh well developed in many sites yet. Um but it is something that is important. It is only specifically for people with dementia. They also offer sometimes some degree of respite services, and they offer uh training and education for caregivers.
SPEAKER_02
19:46
Oh, well, it's just important because I think the more training and education a caregiver gets.
SPEAKER_00
19:50
It's much better than what exists now in general for people with uh dementia and their caregivers.
SPEAKER_02
20:00
That's good to know uh with it because it's so overwhelming.
Care Navigation Versus Care Coordination
SPEAKER_02
20:04
You also mentioned about uh care navigation and care coordination. What is that?
SPEAKER_00
20:13
Yeah, there there's a big difference. So it's pretty traditional uh I I don't know if your mom Patty was ever in the hospital, um Lisa, but it's very very typical that after a person is discharged or in the process of being discharged from a hospital, it's a little bit overwhelming because a lot of things have changed. Um a person uh may become maybe significantly less physically capable, and people will say, How come mom's being discharged from the hospital? She isn't well yet. And the answer is, well, that's not the purpose of an acute care hospital. It's the purpose of an acute care hospital is to just get them out of the woods for now to get them out of their acute illness. And uh when the person is discharged from either a nursing home or from a hospital, a lot of questions is uh, where do we uh go from here? And the typical response is well, this is what you need to do. And they'll give you a list and said, You need to do this, you need to do this, and you need to do this. That is called care navigation. It's widely available, it's done in most hospitals throughout the country. It's one of the things hospitals are rated on is did you tell the family what to do? That's a lot different from helping the family do it. That's true. And that's what care coordination is. And so, care coordination, when you look at it, is not widely available. And that is one of the things that the Medicare Guide program really helps with. It doesn't just tell you what. To do, but helps you get things done. And um it's a little bit overwhelming for most caregivers to say, just get a piece of paper, well, you need to do this, this, this, and this.
SPEAKER_02
22:13
And it was overwhelming.
SPEAKER_00
22:17
And that's a lot different from care coordination, which says, Well, this is what needs to be done. Would you would would it be okay if I help you do it? And I'll help you coordinate this, I'll help you set this up. That's not typically available from hospitals. It is available sometimes from specialized programs. Uh, like, for instance, uh, in some places, like if they have a a memory care uh clinic in a major hospital, uh, sometimes they'll do things like that. It's very similar to what happens when a person has cancer, that they will actually coordinate care. They will make sure that care is seamless. They won't just give you instructions. And that's a big difference between navigation and coordination. And that's a big gap in our healthcare system.
SPEAKER_02
23:10
I would agree with that. Yeah, because they gave me, you know, here and I had to do most, pretty much all of it on my own. Uh, you also talked about uh dementia villages and memory cafes.
Dementia Villages And Memory Cafes
SPEAKER_02
23:23
Uh I know in is it Finland that they have like a dementia village, but you said that there's some places in the United States are starting to possibly do this.
SPEAKER_00
23:33
Yeah, it it's a concept that uh is uh was started in uh Holland and uh is has been replicated in very in which people live in very safe environments. Um they they they become eligible when they have dementia. And the safe environments are environments that feel uh very familiar to them, and so it might be something that feels stuck in time. Now it's it's an interesting concept, and they've also had some similar efforts in Japan. Um and in the United States, um, there is one site that is preparing that. I think those are interesting things. I don't think they're, you know, those things are definitely not widespread in the United States. But uh the memory cafes are um also a concept that is somewhat familiar in the United States, and you need to Google search it, but various sites will uh have little social meetings in which people with memory problems get together and uh either have activities or um just talk about uh things from the past.
SPEAKER_02
24:51
So and I have to say sometimes it was quite entertaining listening to uh two or three different dementia patients talk, you know, because like they talked about all kinds of things and you just followed along with them. And sometimes it was funny just listening to them. And I didn't mean I don't mean that in a bad way, but like it was just entertaining, and like you just listened and went along with them, and you I would laugh, you know, uh for it.
Doing Things With Not To
SPEAKER_02
25:17
You also talk about a cut these concepts of doing two, doing four, or doing with, and you recommend doing with. Can you explain that for people?
SPEAKER_00
25:28
Yeah. So doing two is something that the healthcare system, again, uh does too often to um people who are frail and ugly. Doing two means if you have an emergency, call 911. Because doing two means that it's not something that is very friendly or supportive of dignity. Um and it actually imposes something on a on a on a person that the person may not actually want. Um so a very typical example of doing two um is putting a person in a nursing home. So there's a double whammy that you become frail and elderly and you may have memory problems, and then on top of that, you're re you're instead of being supported uh with all those challenges, you're put in a nursing home, which is probably you know one of the reasons that people don't like to be diagnosed as having memory problems because of the fear that this is what's going to be done to them. Now, I can see that yeah to them is worse than for them, which is a lot of times people say, Well, this is good for you. You need to do this, and people say, Well, this is good for you, take a shower, get a bath, this is good for you. And it is good for them, uh, but it's not something that they really necessarily really want to do. And the optimal is when a person is able to do something that says, I'm doing this with you, so that the person feels like this is helpful to me as well. Now, it's it's an ideal goal is doing things with a person, um, but um I think it needs to be thought of. So when it comes to, for instance, like, what are we gonna do with mom as she gets into a more advanced stage, or what are we gonna do with mom when uh when it's just becoming overwhelming in various ways, people have to make decisions and they have to think a little bit. Are we doing this to her, for her, or with her? And you really want as much as possible to do things with her. It's not always possible, but certainly you don't you really want to avoid doing things to a person, which means for your benefit, but not really something they wanted. And uh, you know, as a geriatrician, uh that's a a conceptual framework, but what it actually means in specific situations needs to be tailored. For instance, you were saying that despite your mom having a significant degree of cognitive impairment dementia, she was still able to walk. And so uh an intervention that's tailored to her is a lot different from an intervention that's tailored to somebody who can't walk. And of course, somebody who walks, one of the common, you know, specific issues that comes up is wandering. And how do you manage that?
SPEAKER_02
29:04
Yes, and she did, uh, she got out twice in one night uh when she was living with me in the house, and I was right there when she did it. I mean, she was fast, and luckily I caught her. She only got to like my neighbor's driveway and is like, you know, in the middle of the night, you know, and she just thought she was gonna go visit. And I was like, no, no, no, we we need to come in, but it is really scary when that happens, you know. I I I see how easily.
SPEAKER_00
29:33
Yeah. The Alzheimer's Association really uh talks a lot about wandering and it's uh Lisa, you mentioned how scary it is, and it's scary for a reason. The statistics actually are really concerning. Um if a person gets lost for more than 24 hours, you can't find them for 24 hours, there's a good probability um that there's a major injury.
SPEAKER_02
30:06
Okay.
SPEAKER_00
30:07
So if you don't find a person within the first 24 hours, it's definitely a situation uh in which the outcomes become more and more problematic. So um that's why when somebody gets lost, it's important to to to, and there's there's a different chapter in my book about special situations that it's really important to seek out help right away. And um you really want to find a person within the first hour. Um the the it gets more and more difficult to find a person as the time passes.
SPEAKER_02
30:49
I would I would believe that because they they don't know where they are in in that. So, but yeah, that was very, very scary. And I remember calling my dad at 4 30 in the morning, and he came like a few hours later and he changed the lock on my door and and all that. But I I didn't sleep well because I knew what if she got out through the patio door and stuff like that. So it was very scary.
The First Step Toward Support
SPEAKER_02
31:10
So when what do you know when your book will be coming out?
SPEAKER_00
31:15
Uh there's a good you know, it's taken me years, um, but there's a good chance it's gonna come out this year. Okay. Um the the chapter that I shared with you is about um uh what kinds of support exists. And the that chapter, I won uh there were a number of different things I I I uh I delved into. One is that you know it's important for everybody to get support, um, but there's a large number of people who really hesitate to get support, and there's a lot of different reasons for that. Um and then I also talk about the different kinds of support that exists, and there's a lot of evidence that people who reach out for support, the um the outcomes are a lot better. Um, the outcomes are better for the caregiver, and the outcomes actually better for the the patient as well. Um, you know, caregivers who get support do much more better on their own uh emotional, physical, um uh well-being, and uh are able to lead lives that are that still feel a lot more connected. Um and for patients, um, when support is in place, they actually are able to live at home a lot uh significantly longer.
SPEAKER_02
32:34
So and I did you had a lot of good information on in there, you had um uh were people books that you recommended, uh different things they could watch or listen to. You also said there's a best practice caregiving database that people could have access to as well.
SPEAKER_00
32:55
Yes, yeah, and and again, it it does need to be tailored. And part of it is that you know, everybody's different. Like some people will readily reach out for help, other people are uh, you know, for a lot of different reasons, maybe cultural, maybe feeling like like this is my responsibility. Some people feel like I can do this better than anybody else. Um people just feel overwhelmed. Uh, some people feel um that um they're that they they're that the help out there is not really that good. So a lot of people approach it in many different ways. And my my my message is always take take a first step, no matter how small it is. If it if you want to just start out with a really small step, that's fine. But uh it's really important that to seek some sort of help, just the same way that for your mom, you know, she was not willing to take that first step of actually getting evaluated. But taking a small step, and then it even if it doesn't lead you immediately to the to the best tailored in intervention, the best tailored support, it gets you started. And um, then you kind of tailor it from them. And you know, a lot of times when people have at the early stages, they mostly want education, and there's a lot of different ways to do that. So things such as your podcasts, there's some um uh websites that just provide information. Alzheimer's Association is wonderful for that. Um there are some sites that provide structured trainings that are either on your own timeline, like you'll you go through different modules about managing this, managing that, managing financial issues, managing behavioral issues, um, uh, managing laundering. Uh, and then there are more structured uh uh courses that say, well, on this day we're gonna talk about this, we'll discuss it on this day. And so you just pick out what works best for you. You know, there's the educational aspect, and then the which your podcast is mostly educational, then there's others that are more about caregiver support, emotional support, you know, support groups and people chat together, and I I belong to some of those. Um uh and support groups are really good. People once they start, they really find uh a sense of being able to talk with people who are in the same situation, similar situations to them. But what I find is that a lot of people hesitate to ever get involved in a support group, and then you know, then other things like you've done, Lisa, is which actually get hands-on support. You know, you you got your mom into a memory care unit and stuff like that. And so there's different kinds of things that you can try. Um, and of course, it because it's very individualized because uh, for instance, there's more resources in urban settings than there are in rural settings. In urban settings, you know, you might actually find programs that are readily available, whereas in rural settings, you might need to just get more help online. Um and then there's always also the financial issues, you know. I mean if you have a significant amount of money, it's gonna help a lot. If you don't have money though, you should not just give up and say, There's no help for me. Um, right. You know, the Alzheimer's Association is very good for that with the helpline with live people that say, you know, how can I get help? Um in every region in the United States, there is an area offices on aging, and they're usually more knowledgeable about what actually exists in specific areas. But it does take that first reaching out, and part of um, you know, what I find is that people are just so overwhelmed with just what they're doing that they really don't have any time to even reach out for that little bit of help that would actually make a difference. Uh, but they're so they're drowning basically in their immediate day-to-day activities that even reaching out, and the analogy I use is you know, somebody's in the water and they're they're they're they're afraid of drowning and they're they're they're you know um moving their hands and their legs, and somebody in a in a in a rescue boat comes out and says, just grab my hand, and and they won't grab the hand because they're just so busy just trying to stay alive that they don't reach that hand. I just I I just really want to make people recognize that that's the that's the critical time they need to reach out when they're when they're at what I call the red light zone, when they're not sleeping well, uh, when they're not eating well, when they feel totally isolated, when they're turning to sleeping pills and and alcohol and drugs and and just uh uh being feeling like totally overwhelmed, that is a big red light sign. That is exactly the time you desperately need to reach out for help. And the help, you know, it's there. I'm not saying it's always easy to find, but it's there. You just have to take that first step and just reach out.
SPEAKER_02
38:23
I would agree with that because all the time we spend on, you know, Instagram or Facebook or any of the other social media sites just doing silly stuff, you could take that five minutes. And even if you start with like the Alzheimer's Association, you know, and or calling the helpline, just little by little, even if you do it for five minutes every couple days, it it helps a lot. And I would agree with you. And even, you know, um support groups sometimes in the memory care facilities, they have a support group there. Um I, you know, I was never really a support group type person, but now I go to a few of them, and it helps just because I know that there's people there that understand what I'm going through. You know, they they understand the feeling. And a lot of times you don't even have to say anything. If you're somebody that doesn't want to participate, you could just sit there and then later on just talk with the person. And it just helps. You don't feel so alone with that.
SPEAKER_00
39:18
So so you you like that's that sounds really great, Lisa. That that's exactly right, you know. Uh and this whole point you make is you don't have to say anything. I think that's a really important point.
SPEAKER_02
39:30
Yeah, you don't. You could just listen and then talk to somebody later. So uh we look forward to your book coming out. So it's uh gold, is that gonna be the name of it?
SPEAKER_00
39:41
Uh well, we're working on it, but the concept of gold, you know, getting older with love and dignity. And uh, you know, we have a long way to go. I I sometimes think about geriatrics as being the mirror image of pediatrics. And uh, you know, when people have Alzheimer's or dementia, it's there's an analogy to to children with special needs and autism and issues like that. And you know, there's a very strong community in the pediatric world. Um, the community for seniors is not nearly as strong, and we need to get there.
SPEAKER_02
40:18
Yes, I would agree with that. We really do. So uh so I hope we get to see your book out soon then. At least this show.
Closing And Staying Connected
SPEAKER_02
40:27
Yeah, thank you so much for joining us. So I hope you enjoyed this edition of Patty's Plays. So um, I hope you enjoyed your cup of tea, your cup of coffee, or if you're having that really bad day, your glass of wine. Make sure you leave us a review or subscribe to our YouTube channel, and just so you know that you're not alone in all of this. We're here in this together, and hope you join us for another edition of Patty's Plays.
Episode Guest: Dr. John – This is a “Get Well” Program, Not a “Feel Good” Program
Hosts Mike and Glenn welcome Dr. John to the sober.coffee shop for a raw, straight-shooting conversation about Alcoholics Anonymous, the reality of working the program, and what it truly takes to get well.
The Reality of Recovery
Dr. John doesn’t sugarcoat it: AA is not about rainbows, unicorns, and puppies. It is about getting well.
With sobriety dating back to 1980—including a five-year “research sabbatical” (relapse) before getting sober for good in 2000—John uses his hindsight to fuel his insight. He views alcoholism as an “inside job.” Alcohol was his soul food, and removing it leaves a void that must be filled. Even when joy and gratitude are hard to find, John emphasizes that you are still getting better.
Key Takeaway: AA is a get well program, not a feel good program. When you are full of doubt and in a dark place, you have to trudge along, plot along, and stick around. It is in these tough times that you spiritually grow.
The 3 Basics of Working the Program (In Real Time)
When life gets heavy and you aren’t “feeling it,” John relies on three foundational steps:
Be aware. Recognize where you are at.
Check in. Talk with your sponsor and/or others in recovery.
Pray on it. Seek guidance outside of yourself.
The Trap of Self and Ego
The guys agree that when we have a problem with others, the root of the problem usually lies within ourselves. However, self cannot transform self, and ego cannot conquer ego. Because disturbed emotions impair our judgment, we cannot rely solely on our own thinking. God works through people—which is why AA is inherently a “we” program.
When you find yourself emotionally disturbed, John offers a 3-step triage plan:
Freeze: Stop and do not act.
Check in with a sponsor: A pain shared is a pain halved, and an outside perspective is better equipped to take inventory.
Pray for willingness: Pray for the willingness to accept and take direction.
The 3 Types of Direction You Might Receive:
According to Glenn, guidance from a sponsor or the program usually boils down to one of three truths:
“It’s none of your business.”
“Live the Serenity Prayer.”
“That’s just what an AA is supposed to do.”
The Art of Sponsorship & Surrender
Surrender means accepting direction. John notes that a sponsor can only be as effective as the sponsee allows them to be, adding that working with a sponsor is much more of an art than a science.
The Power of “I”: John’s sponsor famously corrected him on using pronouns like “he, she, or they” when pointing fingers. The focus must always be on “I.”
Humility Check: John’s sponsor also gave him a great reality check: “When you think you have God’s will figured out, come check with me.”
The “Broken” Paradox: The more broken we feel on the inside, the more potent we can become on the outside. John reminds listeners: You aren’t a jerk/bad person; you are just acting like one.
Honesty and Evolution
Once you are sober, there is no longer a reason to lie. However, John drops a profound truth about the nature of recovery: “You can only be as honest as you are well.” Because we grow over time, your truth today will look very different than your truth did five years ago.
Final Thought
What is relapse? According to Dr. John, relapse is simply what happens when you turn your back on recovery. Keep doing the basics, stay honest, and stick around.
Are you falling into the “Annihilation Trap?” In this episode of “The Art of Wellness” podcast, Dr. Gerry Robles DPT (Art of PT owner in Naperville Illinois) and Coach Ramy Daoud (Phoenix Sports Empire) expose the toxic fitness culture that is destroying athletes’ longevity. We break down why being “dead” after a workout is actually a sign of failure and how to train for a body that lasts into your 60s and 70s.
What You’ll Learn: – The 5 Signs of Overtraining: How to tell if your “hard work” is actually killing your progress. – Stimulate, Don’t Annihilate: The biological secret to consistent gains without the “recovery – hole”. – Real Physical Therapy vs. “Passive” Scams: Why massage and heat aren’t enough, and what active exercise prescription actually looks like. – Gym Cults & Alpha Energy: Identifying toxic training environments that prioritize ego over technical mastery. – Longevity in Combat Sports: Why “mileage” matters more than age and how to stay on the mats for life.
TIMESTAMPS: [00:00:10] – The Best Feeling: Owning Your Own Training Space [00:03:49] – The Truth About Overtraining in Combat Sports [00:04:36] – My Pro Fight Nightmare: Training While Sore [00:07:23] – Stop Chasing Soreness: Sweating vs. Real Progress [00:09:39] – Build, Don’t Destroy: A Coach’s True Objective [00:14:31] – Real Physical Therapy vs. The Passive Treatment Myth [00:21:58] – Stimulate, Don’t Annihilate: The Secret to Longevity [00:30:51] – Avoiding “Gym Cults” and Toxic Training Environments [00:37:32] – 5 Signs You Are Training Too Hard [00:41:35] – Why You Should Feel Energized (Not Depleted) After Training [00:46:04] – Grand Opening: The New Phoenix Sports Empire Storefront
Disclaimer: This content is for general informational purposes only and is not medical advice. Always consult your healthcare provider before starting any new exercise or treatment.
Yeah,
0:00
>> I’m happy for you. I think it’s super cool that you have
0:03
>> your own your own spot, which
0:05
>> Thank you. Thank you.
0:06
>> We’ll talk about more at the end, but Yeah. Yeah. How do you feel about it? Do
0:09
you feel good?
0:10
>> I feel Man, it feels just to be in control of your own space, to have your
0:14
own energy there. No one else’s energy or issues being associated with you and
0:20
your students and your your business is the best feeling. Yeah. Like
0:24
>> I can’t believe how happy I am just to spend time there. You know, after class,
0:28
my students hang out. you know, it’s tough to get people to leave. Like, it’s
0:31
just a such a good positive spot to be at. And yeah, it’s different when
0:35
you’re, you know, renting other people’s spot. It’s It’s different. It is
0:38
different.
0:39
>> Depends on who you’re renting from. I guess
0:40
>> that’s makes a big difference.
0:41
>> Yes. But it sounds like you got a good spot over there and
0:44
>> it looks cool.
0:45
>> Yeah, it does. We made it look cool.
0:47
>> Is it all red?
0:48
>> It’s all red. The walls are all red. Um, we’re hoping local blood members uh
0:53
gravitate towards us. We
0:56
>> Yes. All the Neighborville Blood. the Neighborville Blood chapter. Uh we
1:00
apologize to the Neighborville [ __ ] chapter who might
1:03
>> find issue with the color choice, but we we are uh not affiliated with any
1:09
officially. Yes. There we go. Thank you for bringing that. Yes.
1:11
>> Only red. Uh it’s all red, right? That the walls are all red and you have like
1:14
>> the walls are red, the mats are black, so there’s some cool contrast there.
1:17
Yeah. I can’t wait.
1:18
>> You did that? Yeah. I’m going to go for it, man.
1:20
>> You did that all with your students, you said?
1:22
>> Me and my students, man. I have one student named Michael who, man, he took
1:26
the lead on everything. He works. He’s like a handyman. He has a small business
1:30
and
1:31
>> he was like without him it would just be a mess. He really took the reign.
1:35
>> It seems like he got it done super fast. Like I was looking Well, I was talking
1:38
to you and then like the next week it was already all painted. I saw on
1:40
Instagram. I was like whoa that was quick.
1:42
>> Every day after training at our old location, him and I would go there and
1:47
just paint for like 3 4 hours. On the weekends
1:50
>> sometimes he would be there for like 10 12 hours. Like he’s the man. Like he did
1:54
so
1:55
>> much. Um, and he didn’t ask for anything. I had to offer, you know,
1:59
stuff to
2:00
>> reimburse him because he’s that good of a person. Like, he just wanted to help
2:04
us build our academy. My students came and volunteered,
2:07
>> you know, they I would buy them food and stuff and it still wasn’t even close to
2:11
enough for how much.
2:11
>> What’ you buy them? What kind of food?
2:13
>> Every day I ordered, man, especially me and Michael, we were Uber eating like
2:15
like pros. Every every night we’d get something different. And for me, I don’t
2:19
usually eat out that much. I try to eat healthy. So, this was a nice excuse for
2:22
me to pick out a little bit. Um,
2:24
>> but yeah, man. My students wanted to come. They were painting. They were
2:28
installing flooring. They changed the lights. Like they You saw what it looked
2:32
like. It looked like a like a classroom maybe something. Yeah. Now it looks like
2:36
>> like a real real gym. I don’t know how else to say it, but it looks like it’s
2:40
professional. It looks clean. It looks like like your sanctuary.
2:44
>> Yes. That’s what we wanted. We wanted it to be unique and represent us. We didn’t
2:48
want it to be like cookie cutter and look like every other place. Like you
2:51
never walk in someplace and like the walls are red and there’s cool like
2:54
>> Yeah.
2:55
>> I don’t know. You don’t see that that often. Um you see it more in the city in
2:58
like cool neighborhoods, right? Where you have more unique businesses. Yes. In
3:03
quotes.
3:03
>> Cool. Chicago neighborhoods. Yeah.
3:05
>> But in Neighborville, not so much, right? Usually they’re following some
3:08
sort of formula or, you know, so we wanted to be a little bit different
3:11
because we’re a different business. You know, we don’t want to look like LA
3:15
Fitness, right? Yeah. We No, knock on LA Fitness to anyone here.
3:20
LA
3:21
>> anyone listening? Yeah. Old LA Fitness crowd watching today.
3:23
>> Are they even still around?
3:24
>> I think so. Yeah, I think so.
3:26
>> I feel like they got bought out by something. I don’t know.
3:28
>> You might be right. I think one of my students works out at LA Fitness. That’s
3:32
the only reason I think there’s one in existence. Yeah, I think there’s one in
3:34
Neapville.
3:35
>> Neighborville. Yeah, we just keep calling out stuff in Neighborville. We
3:38
love Neighborville.
3:39
>> Yes, we do. Absolutely.
3:41
>> Anyways, welcome back to the podcast. I’m Dr. Jerry. Coach Rammy is here and
3:47
the theme for today that I wanted to talk about was mainly
3:51
like overtraining, training too much, which I think is notorious for people
3:56
who train combat sports, right? So, I want to ask you like up front, was
4:17
there ever a time in your training where you just kept training too much and you
4:21
knew you were, but you still kept doing it? You know what I mean?
4:24
>> Yeah.
4:25
>> Just couldn’t stop yourself, you know?
4:26
>> Yeah. Great question. in uh let’s see, was it my
4:30
in my second or uh the training leading up to my second or third pro fight, I
4:35
remember I had a strength and conditioning coach who was just so
4:39
overzealous, man. I remember the week of the fight, we were doing some super
4:44
intense workouts to the point that I remember when I competed, I competed on
4:47
a Saturday. I remember I was very sore when I competed, which is the worst
4:52
thing. You want to be fresh, you want to be eager to
4:55
>> go out there and perform. But I remember being like my calves were sore. You know
4:58
when you’re so sore when you just walk up the stairs? And that’s how I felt
5:01
going into a pro fight. And it’s because this guy had us doing incline sprints,
5:06
you know, a few days all this.
5:08
>> Yeah. What kind of stuff was he having you do? Now I’m curious like give me
5:11
some specifics.
5:12
>> So this was at the beginning where strength and conditioning became more
5:15
prevalent in MMA. So we were doing, you know, all the
5:19
>> at the time trendy exercises, flipping tires, battle ropes, sprinting on an
5:24
incline treadmill. Yep. All of that cable, you know, punching with the
5:28
cable, all the cool looking stuff that was trendy that you’d see in the behind
5:32
the scenes UFC videos.
5:34
>> Um, this guy, I believe, came from a CrossFit background.
5:38
>> Take uh from that what you will. Um, and I think
5:41
>> nothing. We take nothing from
5:42
>> nothing. We have no issues with anyone. Yes. Um, and I think he was in a he was
5:47
a in a weird spot because he didn’t train in combat sports. And I think he
5:51
felt like he had to prove that his side of things was just as tough and intense
5:55
as the combat side of things. So, it’s like, “Oh, you guys think you’re tough?”
5:58
Which, no, I don’t. I never said that. Um, we’ll try this workout and let’s see
6:03
how tough you are. That was kind of Now, looking back, I think that’s what it
6:06
was.
6:07
>> So, again, we’ve talked about people’s insecurities in the past. I think he’s
6:11
projecting his insecurity. For some reason, he’s insecure that he is not a
6:14
combat sports athlete and he wants to show combat sports athletes, listen, I
6:18
am the end all be all. I am very tough. In fact, look at this brutal workout I’m
6:22
going to put you through. Leading up to the fight, the workouts did not taper
6:27
down so that we’d be fresh for the fight. It was still like, let’s go,
6:30
let’s go. You can do never give up, never this, and
6:33
>> I’m fighting for John Cena. Yeah,
6:37
>> never give up.
6:37
>> It’s horrible, man. It’s horrible. And it affected my performance. Thank
6:41
goodness I was still able to uh find a way to win, but it was despite his
6:45
methods, not because of them.
6:47
>> So, you still won the fight?
6:48
>> I still won. And to his credit, aesthetically, like I was very lean. I
6:51
looked like I was in great shape, but
6:54
>> I was still like tired after the first round. You know, it’s it wasn’t very
6:57
functional. I looked like I was in much better shape than I was. Now, looking
7:02
back, the training should have been more functional. I didn’t need to destroy my
7:06
body during strength and conditioning. I was doing enough of that in sparring.
7:09
right now. I needed strength and conditioning that would strengthen my
7:12
body, increase my mobility, my flexibility, my agility, my reflexes.
7:17
Yeah. Yeah. But instead, it was just the hammer. Everything just beating us down,
7:21
>> beating yourself to the ground.
7:22
>> Didn’t know any better, man.
7:23
>> Yeah. And I think a lot of people equate a good workout. So, I’m just speaking
7:27
more like generalities here, like Ramy’s going to talk about obviously more fight
7:31
sports, combat training stuff. Um, I think a lot of people just with exercise
7:35
in general, they feel like they have to be super sweaty after a workout. They
7:40
have to be super sore after a workout. Like all that constitutes a great
7:43
workout.
7:44
>> When in reality, like, you know, if you think about it, just sweating is just a
7:48
cooling mechanism. It’s just your body trying to cool off. Like a sauna, right?
7:51
You’re in a sauna,
7:53
>> you’re sweating like crazy. It’s not making you any stronger, more agile,
7:56
more powerful, more, you know, explosive.
7:58
>> Yeah.
7:59
>> Um, so think about sweating that way. it’s not a a good indicator of a good
8:02
workout. Uh same thing with soreness. Soreness is more so like a your body
8:08
responding to novelty, something new, a new movement, right? That’s when people
8:12
get more sore.
8:14
>> When in reality, if you get more fit, you get less sore. Your body becomes
8:18
more efficient and at repairing itself,
8:21
>> right?
8:22
>> So, I think a lot of times people want to be like, “Well, it wasn’t a good
8:25
workout because I wasn’t like sweating like crazy at the end or I wasn’t super
8:28
sore the next day.” When in reality, if you’re more fit, you’re going to be
8:32
doing less of those things in a way. Also, if you’re always chasing soreness,
8:36
you’re never really chasing mastery in certain movements. You keep changing
8:39
your program. You know what I mean?
8:41
>> Yes.
8:41
>> And you’re never actually mastering like when you’re throwing jabs or something
8:45
like first learning boxing, you throw a zillion jabs. You don’t go to something
8:48
else right away.
8:50
>> You have to master those things first,
8:52
>> right?
8:52
>> Um,
8:54
>> so I think those two things are very important to talk about when talking
8:57
about was it a good workout? You know what I mean? Like, did I sweat a lot?
9:01
Was I super sore? Don’t worry about that so much. And we’ll kind of get into that
9:05
a little bit more as we go. But, um,
9:07
>> where do you think this came from, by the way, in your opinion? This
9:09
mentality,
9:10
>> dude. Yeah. I was going to ask you a similar question cuz I think
9:15
>> they go hand in hand, right? I was going to ask you like, why is that a thing in
9:18
fight training? Like, why do you have to be so like hardcore all the time? Same
9:21
thing with just working out in general. Like,
9:23
>> why do we have to be so hardcore? Like, I was going to ask you, you think it’s a
9:27
ego thing? Yeah.
9:28
>> And you could give me the same question. I think it is a lot of the times, you
9:32
know what I mean? Like, so what do you think it is? And then I’ll kind of give
9:35
you my response, too.
9:36
>> I think as related to combat sports, I think it is a ego thing. Often times,
9:41
I’m surprised. So, for example, at PSC, none of the coaches will be tell the
9:46
class, hey, you guys are going to be real sore tomorrow. Get ready. It’s
9:50
oftentimes the members who will before taking their first class be like, “Yeah,
9:54
you know me, if I’m not sore and, you know, dead after, I don’t feel like I
9:58
got a good work.” Like, that’s what they’re telling us they want. And I’m
10:01
thinking like, I don’t know. That’s not really my objective is to beat you down
10:06
your first class. It’s not my objective at all. In fact, my goal is to build
10:11
you, not to destroy you. Right? But they have this mentality and sometimes
10:16
they’re disappointed. They will tell us, you know, let’s say a technical class,
10:19
they learn techniques, they sparred. Yes. Of, you know, they’re moving, their
10:23
body gets hot, they sweat, of course, but they’re like, “Oh, no, you know, I
10:27
wanted more of they wanted more intensity.” In their mind, intensity
10:30
means like damage to their body, soreness. I don’t
10:33
>> Do you get that a lot with potential clients? get that with mostly I
10:39
unfortunately comes from a lot of men who were athletes before and maybe they
10:44
were trained incorrectly or had those types of coaches
10:47
>> um and they bring that mentality into combat sports not understanding that my
10:52
job is to teach you the techniques of combat sports. That’s my priority,
10:55
>> right?
10:56
>> Not to make you do like a bunch of push-ups and you can go anywhere for
10:59
that. You’re coming hopefully paying us a premium for our expertise, right? You
11:04
want to learn how to throw a knee, how to pivot, how to do arm lock. Anyone
11:08
could tell you, “Hey, do 100 push-ups, run around your building 20 times.”
11:12
Like, I don’t for me, I think that’s a waste of their time and mine to just
11:16
break their body down.
11:17
>> Right. Right.
11:17
>> Yeah.
11:18
>> Like,
11:18
>> have you had that recently with somebody? Like
11:20
>> I have. I have.
11:21
>> What did you tell them? Like, what what’s your conversation look like with
11:24
them when they say those things? I tell them that the doing combat sports is
11:30
going to be challenging for your body, especially if you don’t have a
11:32
background in it. You know, if you do jiu-jitsu and you’re trying to
11:36
somebody’s on top of you, you’re trying to, you know, push them off you, for
11:39
example. It’s going to be tiring. It’s going to be physically challenging, but
11:43
I don’t train in that way that you might be expecting. So, I tell them, I don’t
11:47
want to I want to manage their expectations. I don’t want to lie. I
11:49
don’t want to delude them. Again, I’m not a salesperson. So, I tell them, I’m
11:52
like, “Hey, some of the classes will be challenging. You will get fit by
11:56
practicing martial arts and combat sports, but that is not my goal is for
12:01
you after your first class for you to be on the mat like unable to move and I
12:05
have to peel you up off and that means it was a good training session.
12:07
Sometimes a good training session is, oh, now I know how to throw that jab
12:12
from this position. Now I know how to set up this takedown. That to me is a
12:16
good training session. So
12:18
>> yeah, I try to tell this isn’t that we’re not a boot camp. We’re not like
12:22
this is a combat sports gym where your objective and your goal should be to
12:25
learn combat sports.
12:27
>> Yeah. And let’s I mean again we’re trying to answer the question like where
12:30
does that mentality even come from?
12:32
>> Um yeah it’s I guess maybe just working out
12:36
in general is associated with like being hard and being hardcore all the time. I
12:40
mean, fighting is the, you know, the most hardcore thing you could do that I
12:43
could think of when it comes to like
12:45
>> animalistic instincts or physical um getting physical in some way,
12:50
>> right?
12:50
>> Um
12:51
>> so maybe it’s from that.
12:53
>> I know in wrestling it’s very prevalent. A lot of people come from a wrestling
12:56
background.
12:57
>> That’s where you’ll hear I hear wrestling coaches to this day saying
13:00
overtraining is a myth. There is no such thing. And they’ll cite specific
13:04
examples of people who, you know, perfor like someone like Dan Gable. When you
13:08
read the stories of his training, it’s like he ripped his body to shreds, won a
13:12
gold medal. So people think he won a gold medal because he ripped his body to
13:15
shreds. It’s like he won a gold medal despite tearing his body to pieces,
13:19
right?
13:20
>> Yeah. The mental toughness of course is a huge uh asset in wrestling, but I
13:25
don’t think you need to destroy your body to achieve that mental toughness.
13:28
So, do you tell your students like to scale back a lot? You know what I
13:33
mean? Like if they let’s say a group of them come up to you afterwards like,
13:36
“Hey, that wasn’t a hard workout or something.” Like, do you just tell them
13:39
like, “Hey, let’s Today’s objective was not to just kill you.”
13:42
>> You know what I mean? Like, how do you tell them that?
13:45
>> Yeah, that’s a it’s it’s tough. I luckily my my people my students who
13:49
have been with me for a while, they know what to expect. They know that some
13:54
class, for example, if you do a lot of sparring, you’re going to be pretty
13:56
tired. Sparring is stressful. Therefore, it’s tiring, right? Your heart rate’s
14:00
up, there’s you’re nervous, people are throwing strikes at you, it’s tiring.
14:04
Um, but if you come to a uh technical kickboxing class or even an advanced
14:09
kickboxing class, our goal is again not to tire you out. If that happens through
14:14
the process of you learning the techniques and you enjoy the workout,
14:17
wonderful. But that’s never our goal. I’ve never talked with
14:20
>> our coaches and said, “Oh, today we’re really going to take it to them. We want
14:23
everybody to feel like dead at the end.” We never say that. Mhm.
14:26
>> So, I know some people are looking for that and I guess we’re not the right fit
14:30
for them.
14:30
>> Yes,
14:31
>> that makes complete sense. I think this is I just thought of this right now, but
14:34
like you know, working in physical therapy, people think
14:37
>> physical therapy is just like me massaging them for an hour,
14:40
>> right?
14:41
>> When that could not be further from the truth.
14:44
>> Uh physical therapy is called physical for a reason. You know what I mean? It’s
14:47
exercise prescription for your specific pain or injury, right? You can’t get
14:50
better just laying there doing nothing.
14:53
>> Like I mean, equate it to anything. Like if you have back pain for example
14:57
>> I mean if you do nothing will it go away maybe probably um are you fortifying the
15:03
area your back getting it stronger building capacity so it won’t happen
15:06
again no if you just sit there and do nothing happens there’s no adaptations
15:10
in your body right so I think the flip side of that like in PT with me again
15:16
people think it’s just like I’m going to massage their back it’s going to feel
15:19
good that’s all we do when in reality real physical therapy is
15:24
>> you know people start sweating. We do a lot of core exercises, a lot of hip
15:27
mobility stuff, a lot of thoracic mobility stuff, whatever that person
15:30
needs that I’ve assessed, whatever impairments that I find, you
15:35
know, that’s how we um actually do the treatment plan and it’s a lot of
15:39
exercise and they’re sweating. And then at the end they’re like, “Hey, Jerry,
15:42
why was that? That was like a workout.” I was like, “Yeah, that’s real physical
15:45
therapy,
15:46
>> you know?” And if your physical therapist is not doing that with you,
15:49
please leave cuz they suck.
15:51
>> Um but yes, that’s real PT. Um,
15:54
>> where do people have why do people have that misconception that physical therapy
15:58
is somebody being massaged for like an hour for example? Where does it
16:01
>> Oh, I I mean maybe because it was that in the beginning and research has
16:06
shifted to active treatments. Active meaning the patient is actually moving.
16:11
>> Yeah.
16:11
>> You know what I mean? As opposed to passive treatments meaning the patient
16:14
is just laying on the table and you crack their backs or you massage them or
16:18
you
16:19
>> dry needle them which are fine. And I mean there’s nothing wrong with those
16:22
things if it makes them feel better.
16:24
>> But if you spend the whole session doing that and the person is not moving and
16:27
getting more functional and getting stronger, building capacity,
16:31
>> they’re never going to learn the tools to stay painf free their whole life.
16:34
>> I see.
16:34
>> You know what I mean?
16:35
>> Yes.
16:36
>> And I don’t know why that’s still around. There’s plenty of PT clinics,
16:40
other clinics that just have the person lay there and
16:43
>> do a weird stretchy machine and, you know, do some other bull crap that does
16:48
nothing. M
16:49
>> um yet they still sell it as real physical therapy when it’s not.
16:53
>> I see. I see. Would you say most people in your profession that’s how they
16:58
approach the sessions is through this method that you feel is not?
17:01
>> Yeah. I mean Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think it’s definitely shifted but I think it
17:04
should still be more on the exercise prescription uh part of it. Got it.
17:09
>> Depending on the person mostly I would say more people need more movement than
17:14
laying on a table getting their hands put on them by somebody.
17:17
>> Right. Makes sense. Um, and again like you know coming from corporate
17:20
healthcare, corporate physical therapy, um, a lot of it is
17:26
I’m going to start going on a rant here. I don’t want to.
17:29
>> So I’m trying
17:29
>> We’ll come back to that.
17:30
>> We’ll come back to that at the end. Um, but I wanted to ask you more so about
17:35
like
17:36
>> um the ego stuff, you know, and fighting.
17:40
Um,
17:41
>> do you think that’s a big part of it? like just like guys wanting to be like,
17:46
you know, macho guys and like I have to train it hard or else it wasn’t a good
17:49
workout. Is that like a a root cause of this in a way? You know what I mean?
17:54
>> I think so. I think um you know, every combat sports gym will say they’ll
18:00
advertise and say, you know, we don’t allow egos in here. And of course,
18:03
they’re all liars, right? You go the gyms that say we don’t have ego here are
18:08
the ones where you’re going to find the most ego. Um,
18:11
>> so yeah, it’s a big part of combat sports, unfortunately. And that’s
18:15
something where I was so tired of it that when I started PSSE, I’m like, I
18:21
don’t want to be repeating the same toxic nonsense that I’ve been a part of,
18:26
you know, as a student, as an athlete, as a fighter for decades now. So, I was
18:31
like, okay, in my own little world, we’re going to change this. And I
18:34
noticed
18:35
>> when we go to competitions, our our athletes, we’re very lucky. they do very
18:39
well. But it’s funny cuz we don’t walk around with the same kind of weird like
18:45
alpha male energy. And to me that’s exhausting. Um it’s super performative.
18:51
It comes from as we’ve talked about in the past from extreme insecurity and it
18:55
has nothing to do with a triangle choke or a butterfly sweep or a switch kick.
19:01
your ego and your weird, you know, self-d delusion and
19:05
>> your insecurities have nothing to do with performing techniques correctly and
19:08
making good decisions, which is what leads to a a good fighter. So, yeah, ego
19:12
is a huge pro a huge problem in combat sports and it leads to things like
19:16
overtraining, training through injuries, uh students being led by their coaches,
19:21
and usually, of course, it’s always the coach’s fault, right? Everything’s from
19:24
the top down. You can the students might not know and say, “Hey, I want a good
19:28
workout. I want to be sweating. I want to feel dead tomorrow. It’s the coach
19:31
that should say, “Hey, that’s actually not the good thing that you think it is.
19:35
My job is to train you to be a skilled
19:37
>> uh combat sports athlete.” So, I think this is an issue from the the top down.
19:42
Like most issues, the the problem starts at the top. And
19:46
>> when we push this narrative, even when you see
19:50
>> and come and when you watch the behind the scenes stuff of like a UFC fighter,
19:52
you oh man, he’s the only seven days a week and this that’s nonsense, man. I
19:57
know these people. They’ve not trained seven days a week. They’re not trained
19:59
eight hours a day. They’re they’re overdoing it. They’re they’re
20:03
>> faking it because the story is very exciting. We’re influenced from
20:07
>> everything from Rocky movies to this where it’s like you always train
20:10
non-stop. It’s just not true, man. Your body can
20:14
only, as you know better than anyone, your body can only handle so much,
20:17
right? You have to be smart with that output. Y
20:20
>> when you overdo it, at a certain point, there’s definitely diminishing returns.
20:24
I’d rather somebody if you’re a skilled fighter, just my opinion, I’d rather you
20:29
be slightly undertrained than slightly overtrained going into a competition.
20:34
That’s just me in my I could be wrong. Some people will be. But if you have the
20:38
skill, you have the aerobic base, you have the experience,
20:41
>> I’d rather you just go in there and be efficient, use technique, be smart,
20:44
breathe, be tactical, than to be overtrained going there with a weakened,
20:49
depleted body,
20:50
>> sore,
20:51
>> sore, cutting too much weight. Like we see that that it doesn’t help. Um we see
20:56
fighters in the tail end of their career drop like another weight class down
21:00
thinking this is going to be it for and now they’re getting knocked out cuz
21:03
they’re dehydrated and their brain’s getting rattled.
21:07
>> So it doesn’t help anyone. It’s um it’s it’s it’s negative. It’s negative to
21:11
have this mentality that we need to harm ourselves to become stronger.
21:15
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21:58
>> I think the a very old saying, but I think it’s still a good one, is the
22:02
whole like stimulate, don’t annihilate
22:04
>> uh saying.
22:05
>> I haven’t heard that. It’s new to me.
22:06
>> Um, it’s definitely again like exhaustion training, if you want to call
22:11
it that. You could apply it to any sport, you know what I mean? Not just
22:13
fighting. Um, I I work with people that, you know, Olympic weightlifterss, um,
22:20
people training for the high rocks. Everybody loves the high rocks nowadays.
22:23
>> Well, I hear about I don’t know what stuff is. I’ve heard I think I have a
22:26
student who has done it, too. Yeah. I don’t know what it is, though.
22:28
>> People getting injured left and right from the high rocks from pickle ball.
22:32
Um, but
22:33
>> high rocks is just like a competition, a bunch of different lifts and stuff and
22:36
like Yeah. Big fitness competition.
22:39
>> Got it. Got it. Um,
22:40
>> but like you know exhaustion training for those things like needing or having
22:45
to think you need to train super hard all the time.
22:47
>> You’re just annihilating yourself and you’re just digging a recovery hole that
22:51
you can’t get out of or you can but it takes a longer time than you think it
22:54
does,
22:55
>> right?
22:55
>> Um,
22:56
>> your body needs
22:58
>> to have stress put on it, right, in training. That’s what training and
23:01
exercise is. It’s stress, right?
23:03
>> But you need just enough to recover from efficiently and not too much to where,
23:07
like I said, you’re digging yourself into a hole. Yeah.
23:09
>> And then again, you feel like crap and then your training suffers and you’re
23:13
think, why is this happening to me? Well, cuz your training is not well
23:16
built. It’s not well progressed. It’s not planned out accordingly by a good
23:19
coach, a good trainer.
23:21
>> Um, so
23:23
>> yeah, I mean, I see it all the time still because I mean, the people I work
23:26
with now, they’re more so like higher level athletes. They’re active people.
23:29
They want to compete in a high rocks. They want to do a a weightlifting
23:32
competition. They want to do
23:34
>> jiu-jitsu competition. And you know, they have this
23:38
misconception of I need to be training hard all the time.
23:41
>> Yeah.
23:42
>> And it’s true in every sport, man. Most sports. Um, and again, it’s it’s it’s
23:49
hard to tell where that comes from in a way, but you know, part of my job is
23:54
telling them to, hey, like that’s not smart. And it’s part of your job, too,
23:57
like you said, right?
23:58
>> Um, and people don’t like to hear that sometimes, and they’re like, well, well,
24:02
why not? Like I need to be hardcore all the time. Then they get injured. to have
24:05
these weird aches and pains. I’m like, well, that’s why cuz you’re not
24:08
progressing accordingly.
24:10
>> Yes.
24:10
>> You need to have recovery days. You need to have appropriate rest days and like,
24:14
you know, D lo weeks, whatever you want to call them.
24:17
>> Um, and it still shocks me that people uh higher level athletes or people that
24:22
um are very fit don’t know this.
24:25
>> Yeah. And I have to kind of rewire their brain a lot when it is someone competing
24:29
in a high rocks or an avid marathon runner that I have who tweaked their
24:33
knee or a jiu-jitsu guy who has back pain forever because he can’t stop
24:39
training super hard.
24:40
>> Yes.
24:41
>> And is that like and again I talk to people like this all every every time
24:45
and it’s like it doesn’t click in them right away. They’re like what do you
24:48
mean? They’re like their brain blows up. Like do you see that too? like they it
24:52
can’t they can’t compute that for whatever reason
24:54
>> all the time, man. They think that this is just
24:58
>> your destiny as a combat sports athlete is to destroy your body. And that’s why
25:03
you see you don’t see a lot of 50, 60, 70 year olds doing jiu-jitsu. Yeah, they
25:08
you should you should be in theory you should be able to do jiu-jitsu at any
25:12
age, right? Or even boxing, kickboxing. You’ll see rare you’ll see outliers and
25:17
those are people who took care of their body, right? Um, I always tell people,
25:21
in my opinion, it’s not the age, it’s the mileage. Right? You could be 25 and
25:25
have a real, you know, two torn knees, a torn this, torn that, and you could be
25:29
done for. Or you could be 50 with no serious injuries or or physical trauma,
25:33
and you could keep training for another few decades.
25:36
>> Um, I know jiu-jitsu people who, you know, by the time they’re 45, they can’t
25:41
walk up the stairs, their fingers are all messed up, both knees are me, and
25:45
they think it’s normal. I’m like, this is not normal. The way you trained was
25:48
actually,
25:49
>> you know, people are going to make fun of me and say like I’m so The way they
25:52
trained was actually abusive. Literally, like you
25:55
>> were led, misled by irresponsible instructor. Usually they worship. So
26:00
it’s hard to tell them, hey,
26:02
>> your instructor might be a well-intentioned good guy. I’m not
26:05
saying they’re not, but he was wrong. The way you train was wrong, right? You
26:08
know, tearing your body up by the age of 30 or 35 is wrong. That means the
26:13
training was incorrect. means something was yes not
26:16
>> being performed uh or not being done correctly at your academy. Doesn’t mean
26:20
your coach is an evil person, but it means he didn’t know what he was doing
26:23
in terms of training people for longevity. My job isn’t to just let
26:27
people train during their prime so that they compete a few times when they’re
26:31
28.
26:31
>> I want people to train when they’re 50. I want people to train when they’re 60.
26:35
>> Yeah.
26:36
>> It’s depressing when you can’t perform the sport you love. I know people who
26:39
can’t do jiu-jitsu anymore. And you It’s depressing, man. they lose a part of
26:43
themselves.
26:44
>> So, it’s like why should we aim to destroy our body
26:47
>> by the earliest age possible to what? To have some war stories to prove
26:51
something.
26:52
>> You know, most of the time, even if you’re a jiu-jitsu world champion, most
26:55
of the time you’re paying to compete. You’re getting some plastic metal that
26:58
nobody cares about and you’re destroying your your health and your physical
27:02
wellbeing for this.
27:02
>> Isn’t it funny how like I mean that’s exercise, right? Exercise is for
27:06
longevity and feeling good, not beating yourself down. So, they’re kind of doing
27:10
the complete opposite. what they should be doing.
27:13
>> And again, like I told you, it’s hard to rewire somebody’s brain when they’ve
27:16
been,
27:17
>> you know, taught that or that thinking is embedded in them for for years.
27:21
>> And but the funny thing is when it does click in them
27:24
>> and you you know, I kind of get my point across to them, they’re like, “Oh,
27:28
>> I do feel better.”
27:29
>> Yeah.
27:30
>> Oh, you mean doing adding in some prehab work and mobility stuff and like scaling
27:34
back my training a little bit
27:35
>> and like getting better each week? Like, oh, that that actually works. I’m like,
27:39
“Yeah, magic, right? figure. Yeah.
27:41
>> Um, and the funny thing is like those guys that like you say like, you know,
27:44
that do jiu-jitsu and their, you know, their back is all messed up and their
27:49
shoulders all messed up, then they go to PT, they go to a crappy PT and they say,
27:54
“Oh, it doesn’t work.”
27:55
>> Well, because they saw a crappy physical therapist and they just massage them the
27:58
whole time or they did some weird stuff that does nothing.
28:00
>> Yeah.
28:01
>> They did some electrode stuff and red light therapy up there, you know, in
28:05
eyeballs or whatever.
28:06
>> Right. Right. um when they should be, you know, like I said, a lot of it is
28:10
lifestyle changes, you know, checking their programming, uh like I said,
28:14
lifestyle habits, um and active movement, moving and you know, getting
28:18
stronger for their respective sport.
28:21
>> Um but that’s a whole other topic. Again, we’ll come back to that as I keep
28:25
going on my PT rants here. I think a good a good mindset shift for people is
28:29
like
28:30
>> instead of like gauging how depleted you are after a workout, gauge how you
28:36
perform during the workout.
28:38
>> You know what I mean? Like don’t gauge the workout based on how
28:41
>> uh exhausted you feel afterwards. Base it how’s your performance during the
28:45
workout? Did you feel strong? Did you feel fit? Did you feel explosive,
28:49
>> agile? Was your footwork good? Whatever, right? as opposed to like um gauging it
28:54
off how depleted you feel after a workout. Um
28:58
>> and again, it’s it just it’s crazy how people don’t understand these things and
29:02
I have to
29:04
>> and again, you would think they’re they’re more wellversed in exercise. At
29:07
the same time, it’s it’s great. Like I love helping them and kind of doing my
29:10
best to rewire their brain, but um it takes a while, but once you kind of get
29:14
through to them, they’re like, “Oh, this does I do feel better now. My body is
29:18
not fighting me.”
29:19
>> Because it shouldn’t be. Like I said, like exercise supposed to make you feel
29:22
better, give you more energy, not make you feel run down all the time?
29:26
>> I agree, man.
29:27
>> So,
29:28
>> um, yeah. Was there ever a time when your training like you plateaued
29:32
>> and how did you get out of that training like feeling overtrained?
29:36
>> Yeah, I think, you know, for me it was I didn’t know at the time because I
29:41
trained at a very reputable, renowned uh academy for a long time.
29:45
>> Oh, you want to call them out? I’m just kidding.
29:48
>> They already hate me enough. So, I’ll
29:51
>> um
29:53
>> and I thought, you know, I joined this academy maybe when I was around 20 years
29:57
old. So there’s UFC fighters there and people I looked up to
30:01
>> and you know so I thought that because they had successful pros
30:06
>> um that they of course knew what they were doing and to some extent they did
30:09
in terms of teaching skill set they they did
30:12
>> but I remember as fighters would get closer and closer to 30 they’d be done
30:17
for and the coaches would even you know when I’d hear them talking about
30:20
fighters that and they didn’t know that anyone could hear like oh yeah that guy
30:23
he’s 28 he’s almost 30 like he’s going to be done
30:26
>> over the hill
30:26
>> and I’m like Wait a minute, that doesn’t make any sense. Um, and I realized it
30:30
was their training methods. The way that they trained, you are destined to be
30:34
done for by age 30. If you have 10 years of, you know, horrible training, um,
30:39
this was a gym where people would be knocked out regularly during sparring.
30:43
>> Um, it was no big deal. Like sparring was at 100%. You know, two, three times
30:48
a week at 100%. Leaving this environment is the best.
30:53
Whether it’s, you know, a fitness gym, a boot camp, whatever. Leaving this type
30:57
of environment is the number one way to extend your career and have longevity.
31:01
You have to leave
31:02
>> people who believe that this is the right way to train. Even if
31:06
>> yeah, they have a fighter who is this champion or this. Remember, these people
31:09
are doing well despite these training methods, not because of them. And it’s
31:13
hard when you’re in the thick of things to
31:14
>> Oh, yeah.
31:15
>> determine what’s what, right? Especially when you’re
31:18
>> young and you’re, you know, you don’t know. you think this is the way and I’m
31:21
just not tough enough.
31:22
>> And after a while you realize like I’m not gaining anything except a bunch of
31:26
lingering injuries and a bunch of
31:28
>> So you were feeling that.
31:29
>> I was feeling Yeah. Like you know man my el I can barely extend my arm. I can I’m
31:33
like in my you know early to mid20s and you know now I still have elbow pain in
31:38
both elbows from you know submissions being cranked like crazy in in jiu-jitsu
31:43
or MMA practice. And I remember the way people would spar there. It was
31:47
ridiculous. And I feel like it’s important to look at your training
31:51
environment objectively so you make you can make the best decision for yourself.
31:55
And unfortunately a lot of especially in combat sports, your training environment
31:59
becomes
32:00
>> almost like a second family, right? So you really feel like you’re a part of
32:04
this crew and it’s hard because you’re not only losing your academy, but you’re
32:08
losing a social circle.
32:10
>> And most gyms do operate unfortunately like cults where when you leave them
32:14
your persona nonrada, right? like, “Oh, you left like forever.” Yeah, it’s
32:18
>> it’s very weird, but this is very common, actually.
32:22
>> Still Oh, yeah. There are coaches now that I know of that will not allow their
32:26
students to train at other gyms. Allow. How do you tell a grown adult where they
32:30
can go and what they can do? Imagine having that control.
32:34
>> You can’t stop them, but they’re not allowed, right? So, you’re not going to
32:37
physically stop them, but you’ll be kicked out. It’s weird.
32:40
>> Yeah. I would have people visit PSC and they’d be like, “Hey, please don’t take
32:43
any pictures or any video.” Like if my coach sees this, you know, I’m going to
32:47
go
32:47
>> these are like grown men, you know, these are lawyers and engineers and
32:51
accountants, like people with careers and families, and they have to hide from
32:54
their jiu-jitsu coach.
32:56
>> It is very, this is way more prevalent. Uh people don’t talk about it. I don’t
33:00
know why
33:01
>> because I think most jiu-jitsu are like this to some extent. Most combat
33:05
sportsmies are like this to
33:06
>> around Neapville. Should we start
33:08
>> everywhere, man? Neapville and everywhere else. And if people are
33:12
watching and they train, they can at least think of if they have training and
33:15
they’ve trained at several gyms, I guarantee they can think of one gym
33:18
where they’re like, “Oh, yeah. This this definitely fits.” It’s
33:22
>> it’s common, man. Especially martial arts is weird cuz
33:25
>> it comes with that such a power imbalance from instructor and student,
33:29
right?
33:29
>> And that can create a really weird
33:32
>> place and a really weird environment for all types of abuse, right? So that’s why
33:37
it’s prevalent. And that’s why if you pay attention to combat sports, you see
33:40
more and more stories coming about instructors behaving inappropriately
33:44
with members, instructors grooming people, instructors abusing people,
33:48
harassing people. It is normal and um it shouldn’t be. It’s it’s horrible. But
33:54
this is the type of environment that combat sports and martial arts can
33:57
create.
33:58
>> Uh unfortunately, anytime there’s a severe power imbalance, you’re going to
34:01
find
34:01
>> like that weird power dynamic. Yeah.
34:03
>> Yeah. Unfortunately. So, like when you were training at that gym, like how did
34:07
you get out of all those aches and pains that you were having? You just kind of
34:11
stopped going there and you kind of just took a break from it or like what do you
34:14
think helped you the most get out of those many injuries?
34:17
>> I I didn’t. While I was there, I didn’t. I would what I would think is, okay,
34:22
when I’m in there and I’m warmed up, I’ll be okay. And yeah, it was true. I
34:25
was able to get through the sessions once I was warmed up and that injury I
34:29
can’t feel it and I have some adrenaline my body’s warm but then after I’m in the
34:32
car feeling like I got ran over by a truck all over again. So while I was
34:35
training there, I you know, some days I would skip sparring, for example, which
34:40
would which got earned me the ridicule of my coach, right? Who would say that I
34:45
was afraid of sparring or I didn’t want to? I mean, I I found out, you know,
34:50
through through uh reputable sources. And I’m think I’m like, I’ve been here
34:54
for years. I’m a pro fighter. I’ve spar I’ve got gotten knocked down from body
34:58
shots. I’ve gotten liver shots here. I can’t bre I think I’ve proven that I’m
35:02
tough. So, if I don’t want to get my brain rattled three times a week at 100%
35:06
power, mind you, by people who are sometimes 30, 40, 50 pounds bigger than
35:10
me. Yeah. Right. Isn’t that horrible on my end?
35:14
>> Um, so yeah, if you didn’t follow the protocol, you were seen as
35:18
>> somebody who didn’t buy into the program. And that is a threat to a
35:21
program that is running effectively as
35:24
>> a cult of sorts. It wasn’t a cult like we weren’t doing weird, you know,
35:28
ceremonies and stuff, but I think cultish behavior
35:32
>> it would be more interestingly I have better stories to tell. But
35:35
>> for me, cult behavior is when you just blindly follow whatever the leader is
35:39
saying. And in my case, it was show up to sparring no matter what. Show up to
35:42
training no matter what. Do this. The way we do things are right. Don’t train
35:46
anywhere else. Blah blah blah. To me, this is cultish behavior. It’s not a
35:50
normal academy behavior where I’m paying for a service and somebody’s supposed to
35:54
teach me something, right? Imagine you go to learn to play the violin and the
35:57
instructor’s like by the way if you ever go to any other violin teacher we will
36:00
find you and we will you know you’d be like okay yeah exact but at martial arts
36:05
that’s normal this this conversation will really happen as laughable as it is
36:09
right now with you and I but
36:11
>> I’m telling you man this is the norm and that’s why
36:14
>> just like you feel so strongly about your business and it being a response to
36:19
the normal ways of physical therapy I feel the same about PSSE this is a
36:23
>> PSC is here because it’s a response to the
36:27
horrible ways that people are being treated.
36:28
>> Same with art of PT like man like like you just said like
36:33
>> you know working with a client or a patient like it’s a collaboration. It’s
36:36
not like I say do this you do everything I say like if someone tells me something
36:41
>> I take you know inventory of it and we work together as a team. It’s not just
36:45
like
36:46
>> I’m the end all beall like uh you know those cultlike trainers you know what I
36:50
mean? It should be similar. Like if your student comes up to you like, “Hey, like
36:54
whatever.” They say something to you, you’re like, “Okay.” You listen to them
36:56
and you kind of adjust a little bit. You’re not like, “No, that’s the wrong
36:59
way of doing it.” That’s just weird. Like
37:02
>> it is strange, man.
37:03
>> I don’t get how. Yeah. But again, it’s a response. Like
37:06
>> your response to those bad cultish uh training uh gurus or whatever. My
37:11
response to bad PT is like
37:14
>> it’s a collaboration. It’s more um more active um on the patients part. But
37:20
again, it’s a it’s something that we both feel strongly about and yeah,
37:24
that’s why we’re here talking about all this and we’re gonna keep doing it. So,
37:27
>> absolutely.
37:28
>> Um,
37:28
>> so I think a few good things to remember about
37:32
>> knowing that you’re training too hard. Like a few signs that I came up with are
37:36
like
37:36
>> lingering soreness for more than 48 hours.
37:40
>> Okay.
37:40
>> Um, like after two days, it should stop to you should stop being so sore. If
37:44
you’re still sore for like a week, you’re probably training too hard. Uh
37:48
same with uh if your performance starts to drop week to week that means you’re
37:53
doing too much.
37:55
>> Also if motivation starts to drop also a sign you’re doing too much in your
37:59
training whatever training again for you combat sports high rocks training
38:03
crossfit Olympic weightlifting runners my runners are very are notorious for
38:08
running a lot and not stopping.
38:11
>> Like why do I have knee pain? I yeah you I keep running a zillion miles a day. I
38:14
don’t know what to do. Um, but I’m there to help you obviously. Um, you know,
38:19
small nagging aches and pains, like I said, that kind of stack up that you
38:22
you’re kind of ignoring throughout the week or week to week. Yeah.
38:25
>> Like, well, this isn’t going away. Well, you’re doing too much probably. That’s
38:28
why,
38:28
>> right?
38:29
>> Um,
38:30
>> also a big one I feel is or you know, I know is more so like, you
38:36
know, hopefully you warm up right before prior to training. Um, you’d be
38:40
surprised how many people don’t warm up still for anything, any sport, any
38:44
weightlifting activity. Um, runners, yeah,
38:47
>> runners don’t even they just start running.
38:49
>> That’s a good point.
38:50
>> Please warm up. And we’ll talk about that a different podcast, but like
38:53
>> if you’re doing your warmup and you already feel like crap,
38:57
>> you’re probably doing too much before all that. You know what I mean? Your
39:00
performance should be good during the warm-up to prep you for,
39:03
>> right,
39:04
>> uh, your sport.
39:04
>> Yes. Um, but if you’re doing your warm-up and you already just feel like
39:08
dump,
39:09
>> well, that’s a sign you probably been doing too much the past few weeks. So, I
39:12
think those five signs are a good way or a good barometer for people to kind of
39:16
like um think about like, hey, am I doing too much?
39:20
>> Yeah.
39:20
>> So, um, great five things right there that I I came up with. Um but um
39:27
again like I think a big thing is like that culture of exercise and fighting
39:33
like we have to do more.
39:35
>> Yeah.
39:36
>> Um so what do you think the best way is to
39:40
>> I guess rewire someone to not think that. What’s like a give me some
39:45
examples of like I don’t know phrases you use to somebody or how you tell them
39:49
to like not do that as much. Like say someone comes to you in one-on-one and
39:54
you’re like you try to tell them like hey scale it back a bit. How do you how
39:58
does that conversation look?
39:59
>> Yeah that’s a great question. Um I remember for us as a hobby you you know
40:04
GSP’s trainer amazing coach.
40:07
>> He said something interesting years ago. He said if you work out let’s say you
40:12
want to do pull-ups and your maximum is 10 pull-ups. He’s like, “When you do
40:17
that max, you’re going to be sore for so long.” And basically what he was saying
40:22
is somebody who does two or three pull-ups a day over the course of a year
40:26
will do far more pull-ups than the guy who does his max and then takes a week
40:30
to recover.
40:31
>> So I always try to instill in my students that it’s consistency over
40:36
intensity. A lot of people start and they come in and they’re
40:40
>> gung-ho, super intense. Coach, I want to fight. You know, usually anyone who
40:43
comes in saying they want to compete,
40:45
>> first of all, never ends up competing, right? It’s usually the students who
40:48
come in because they want a new hobby or they want to learn something. People
40:51
have more like humble goals at the beginning actually turn out to be the
40:56
most successful competitors. The people that come from day one, yeah, I want to
40:59
be a fighter. It’s, you know, something I’ve always wanted. But
41:02
>> I can’t even think of one example of somebody who came in saying they want to
41:05
be a fighter who ended up competing. Wow.
41:07
>> Yeah. Cuz the idea of fighting is way cooler than the reality, right? getting
41:11
your hand raised. Yeah. Looks think of all the work that gets that goes behind
41:16
that, right?
41:17
>> Um,
41:18
>> so yeah, I I try to always say consistency beats intensity. I’d rather
41:21
you be consistent than intense. I’d rather you come two or three times a
41:25
week for five years than to come seven days a week for three months and then
41:29
fizzle out. Your body’s done. You you hate the sport. You’re not looking
41:32
forward to it anymore.
41:34
>> Um,
41:35
>> and I like what you said that you should feel energized. Because you should feel
41:39
good after a workout. You should you should be like buzzing almost after a
41:43
good training session. You feel like, man, this feels great. I feel good. You
41:46
should feel confident, right?
41:48
>> You shouldn’t feel,
41:49
>> you know, depleted and done for and exhaust. Like, man, how am I I can’t
41:53
even drive home. I remember nights where I’d be sitting in the car, like too
41:56
tired to even start my car and drive home. Like, that’s that’s not good.
41:59
Something went wrong during that during that training session. So,
42:03
>> yeah, I tried to change the way they view their workouts, their training
42:08
sessions. Are you better today than you were one month ago? Are you getting
42:11
better with every class? Are you improving? Would you of today defeat the
42:16
U of three months ago or six months ago? And if the answer is yes, we’re on the
42:19
right track. You know, if you want to compete, yeah, there will be challenging
42:23
training sessions where you’re going to be fatigued and you’re going to be
42:25
pushed because you need to in order to be a competitor.
42:28
>> Um, but we’re not just going to
42:30
>> break your body down every day because you have some weird idea of what a
42:34
training session should look like. Yeah.
42:36
>> You know, I’m they’re coming to us. We are the experts, right?
42:41
>> We’re not going to I don’t really This sounds I don’t care much about like
42:45
feedback or their opinion or blah blah blah. Like I know what I’m doing. You’re
42:49
coming here. I’ve been doing martial arts for 34 years.
42:52
>> I will I will organize this.
42:54
>> Yeah. We want what’s best for them. You know, I’m not telling you this to like
42:57
why would I tell you this to make your training worse. Exactly. It’s not my job
43:01
to That’s just weird. Like why would I do that?
43:03
>> I’m trying to help you as you are trying to help your students. Uh, I think a big
43:07
a big kind of mindset shift too with people recently that I’ve had um is like
43:13
they always tell me like, “Well, I felt good that day, so I did more.”
43:17
>> Like my weightlifterss, my runners, they’re like, “Well, I felt great that
43:21
even though it’s not in their plan that I’ve given them.”
43:24
>> Yeah.
43:24
>> They’re like, “Well, I felt great that day, so I maxed out on my squat or my
43:28
overhead squat.”
43:29
>> And then the next day, they’re like, “Well, I feel like crap again.” I’m
43:31
like, “Well, that wasn’t in the plan. Just because you feel good doesn’t mean
43:35
you should do more. Stick to the plan.
43:37
>> Stick to being smart about your training.
43:39
>> And again, just be just because you feel great doesn’t mean you should be doing a
43:43
zillion more squats or a zillion more miles on the run, a zillion more
43:46
pull-ups, like you said,
43:48
>> a zillion more sparring sessions.
43:50
>> Right. Right.
43:51
>> Save that for later. Save that for your competition.
43:54
>> And again, that’s a big u mindset shift for people. And again, you can kind of
43:59
see that in in their heads when I tell them that. They’re like, “Wait, that’s
44:02
right.” but I don’t want to listen.
44:04
>> You know what I mean? But eventually they get it. And again, we want what’s
44:07
best for our clients. You know, we want them to succeed in fighting in getting
44:11
painfree with physical therapy.
44:13
>> Um so we’re not telling you this to like not make you be hardcore. You can still
44:19
be hardcore, you know?
44:20
>> Exactly. Exactly.
44:21
>> Um hardcore and smart.
44:23
>> Yes.
44:23
>> Um
44:24
>> but yeah, man. I mean, again, like you mentioned in the beginning, like overt
44:28
training is very hard to get to. Um, so I agree in that way, but the people I
44:33
work with, they’re such go-getters and um, they’re already like very good
44:37
athletes. So, I have to kind of tell them to kind of chill a bit,
44:40
>> add in some of this rehab stuff we’re doing, exercises, prehab stuff,
44:44
>> and then we’ll come back to that stuff. And again, in the beginning, it’s tough.
44:47
It’s a tough conversation,
44:49
>> but again, in the end, it they’ll feel better in the long run, and their
44:53
longevity will it’ll last.
44:57
>> That’s so true.
44:58
>> Their their bodies will last longer. um they’ll feel better, they’ll be more
45:02
energized. Um and again, that’s what exercise and training, any type of
45:06
training is for in reality is to to feel better, be more confident,
45:10
>> body and mind, all that stuff. Um but yeah, man.
45:15
>> No, you’re I like what you said. And I I also I want to clarify something I said
45:19
earlier. I said like, oh, like you know, for me feedback isn’t important. I
45:23
shouldn’t say feedback is important. What I should say is this that people
45:25
come to you or come to me because they are looking for expertise. Imagine if
45:30
people came in to you and you were like, “Hey, well, what do you think we should
45:33
do today?” They’d be like, “Where? Why did I come here?” Right? Some people
45:36
come to me and they’re like, “Hey, I want this.” And I’m like, it’s like,
45:39
“Cool. I understand that. That’s but
45:41
>> we have to we’re going to do things a certain way that I believe based on my
45:45
experience is the best thing that I could provide for you.”
45:48
>> So, it’s not like, “Oh, I ignore feedback because I’m a you know, I know
45:51
it all blah blah blah.” But when somebody comes in, it’s more likely that
45:55
I have a little bit more experience than them and it’s my responsibility to use
45:59
that experience to make sure they’re safe, that they progress, that they
46:03
learn new things. So that’s why I remember sometimes I’ll have coaches
46:06
that are new. They really will consider feedback too much. Student will come in,
46:11
hey coach, I want to do this today. And they’ll be like, okay, you got it. You
46:14
know, they want to and it comes from a good place. They want to make them
46:16
happy.
46:17
>> And I’ll tell them like, listen, yeah, some people, hey coach, can we work a
46:20
spinning back gentle balance? It’s okay. But hey, coach, today I want to be, you
46:24
know, I want to do 20 rounds of sparring. No, you don’t say, “Yeah, you
46:27
got it. Whatever you want.”
46:29
>> You are the expert. You are there to lead them, right? They don’t know
46:33
sometimes what they want. They think they want this, this, and that. They
46:36
really don’t. They might say they want to spar 20 rounds. Have them spar 20
46:39
rounds. They’re going to be going to the emergency room, right? So, you can’t
46:43
just listen to what people want. You have to be
46:46
>> confident enough to know that you have their best interest in mind, right? So,
46:50
>> and we do have the best intentions for people. Absolutely. Um, and we get that
46:52
a lot. I mean, I get that a lot. People, you know, they have this idea of, you
46:56
know, their their rehab. They know how to do this. They know how to rehab their
46:59
knee. Like, well, I saw on, you know, or chat GBT tell me this or like YouTube,
47:03
this YouTube guy told me this. I’m like, that’s great, but at the same time,
47:07
like, they didn’t actually assess you. And
47:09
>> that’s my job is to assess you first and see if
47:12
>> some of this stuff may or may not work.
47:14
>> Yeah.
47:14
>> Um, at the same time, again, the full assessment is key here. That’s why it’s
47:18
individualized. Like that’s how we are hands-on with our clients. You know what
47:22
I mean? Is like
47:23
>> just like you know well I have back pain chat GBT tell me what to do
47:27
>> right
47:28
>> and that’s when again people have this rigid thinking of like well this is my
47:32
pain
47:33
>> this is what I have to do
47:35
>> and you again I take that into account here and there because they they know
47:38
their pain they’ve had it for if it’s chronic pain they’ve had it for a long
47:41
time
47:42
>> so I can’t dismiss what they say. At the same time we have to input our expertise
47:46
that we’ve been doing for for years now.
47:48
>> Absolutely. Um, so, uh, but it’s fun, you know, I love helping people. Um,
47:54
it’s it’s definitely something that there’s an art to um, as you know, a
47:59
common theme with my stuff is art of everything. Art of PT, art of wellness.
48:04
>> Um, but again, that’s what that’s what comes with being individual with people
48:09
or having an individualized plan for them like you do with your students. I
48:13
do with their physical therapy plans. And again, I think people appreciate or
48:16
I hope they appreciate that personal touch of us receiving their feedback and
48:20
then giving our input and then in the end it’s a gentle balance of we’re
48:23
working together to make them a better fighter
48:26
>> or overcome their back pain.
48:28
>> Yeah.
48:28
>> Stuff like that.
48:30
>> Um so I think you have a big announcement here. I’m going to put you
48:34
on the spot right now.
48:37
>> But um yeah, you got a new space, a new spot in Neighborville. Yes.
48:40
>> That looks super cool.
48:42
>> Yes. Thank you, man. And it’s the official spot for PSSE now, right?
48:46
>> Yes, we do. After uh 10 years of operating out of other people’s
48:52
>> um spaces, we finally have our first storefront um in Neapville. I don’t know
48:57
how they let us in, but they did. And uh so yeah, we’re just so I saw it, too.
49:03
>> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It was almost uh Dr. Derry spot.
49:06
>> We were working together on
49:07
>> That’s right. So yeah, we’re so excited.
49:09
>> We’ll still tag team it a little bit. Exactly. make some YouTube videos there
49:12
or something.
49:13
>> Yeah. Oh, that would be great. I would love that actually. It would look cool
49:15
for your for your content. I think that’d be awesome.
49:17
>> For both of our content, not just me.
49:19
>> Yeah. Yeah, you’re right. I know. I got to get
49:22
better at that.
49:22
>> Post it on me. Yeah. Whatever.
49:24
>> Um but yeah, we’re so excited. Um we have our own Phoenix Sports Empire
49:29
location now. It’s at uh 32 Foxcraftoft, Sweet 108. So, anyone watching this,
49:35
come on down, check us out, and uh I’d love for you to come visit. It’s a
49:39
really cool spot. We made it look unique. We have classes seven days a
49:42
week. We have youth classes, classes in MMA, boxing, kickboxing, and jiu-jitsu.
49:47
So, uh it’s been a ton of fun and uh it’s like a dream come true to have our
49:50
own spot and to have it have our energy and our mentality, our approach to
49:56
combat sports. Um you know me, I’m kind of stubborn. I when how I want to
50:01
operate the business and now I get to fully operate the way that I think is
50:04
best for our members. And so far, we’re all so happy, man. So, we’re
50:08
>> What are your hours? Are they Are you there all the time? All day, every day?
50:12
>> We, you know, we do one-on-one lessons throughout the day, and then we usually
50:15
have group classes in the evening, during the week, and in the afternoon,
50:18
during the weekend. So,
50:20
>> you have the schedule on the
50:21
>> We have the schedule on our website. Yeah. Phoenix Sportsmpire.com.
50:24
>> Great website.
50:24
>> Yes. Please come check us out. And, uh, you could text us 331-481-6441.
50:30
Um, and we’ll get back. If you have any questions or any complaints or any
50:34
insults you want to throw at us, just text that number and we’ll get back to
50:38
you.
50:39
>> Yeah, man. We’re easy to find in Neighborville. We’re everywhere. We have
50:42
our websites. We have I mean, I’ll link it in the YouTube description, man.
50:45
Thank you so much. Your website, all that, which I think I have been doing
50:48
anyway. Hopefully, they have. I think so. I think they should be on there. If
50:51
not, not Instagram. We collaborate on I tag you and stuff all the time. Again,
50:54
we’re easy to find in April. So, like
50:57
>> art of PT, sports and performance PT. Uh, that’s my practice where I help
51:02
active people, athletes around Neapville. We’re, you know, we’re in
51:06
Neapville. We’re deep in it. So, if you guys are in the area, surrounding
51:09
suburbs, too. So, we’re there to help. If you want to learn some martial arts,
51:12
some com some boxing, jiu-jitsu, hit up Ramy. If you have back pain, neck pain,
51:16
shoulder pain,
51:17
>> whatever pain, postsurgical pain,
51:20
>> um, and you’re an active person or you’re an athlete, come check me out.
51:23
Again, I’m easy to find as well. Like, my website’s on here. You can contact me
51:26
through Instagram. Um, I’m on Threads, which I keep telling you to go on and
51:31
never use Right. You’re right.
51:33
>> You know, we gota tag team some of these combos. Um, follow me on there.
51:38
Instagram, like I said, apt drg. My website is www.artofpt.com.
51:46
Uh, what else do I have to plug? Uh, my newsletter, which is free every
51:50
Thursday. Every other Thursday. It’s free. Like I said, just sign up. It’s in
51:55
the description on the YouTube uh channel and in this video. Um it’s all
52:01
things sports medicine, rehab, um busting rehab myths, stuff like that.
52:06
It’s great. You’ll love it. It’s short. It’s not super long. Um I think that’s
52:11
it, man. Anything else you want to plug? Should we plug?
52:14
>> Uh I want to thank all my students and coaches who helped us get the new space
52:19
ready. Man, they were amazing. I am the least handy person on earth. I cannot
52:24
even like
52:25
>> hang up a picture, right? So, without my students, um, we wouldn’t have the So, I
52:30
want to I mentioned Michael who was at the forefront of everything, but
52:34
Michael, uh, Lisa for helping
52:36
>> cut mats so that they fit our space. Like, this is something I have no Yeah,
52:41
she’s brilliant. Lisa, Michael, um, Sophie for helping with painting. Coach
52:46
Brooks for helping with painting. Shout out to them.
52:48
>> Uh, Aaron for helping with painting. Danny, uh, Angel, uh, I hope I’m not
52:53
forgetting anyone. Pedro, uh, thank you to for everybody who came down to help
52:57
us get the new gym, um, ready. Emmer, for Coach Enrique, Coach Haimey, thank
53:03
you guys for everything you do for PSC. Um, I wouldn’t be here without our
53:09
members and our coaches. We’re just so lucky, so fortunate. So, thank you to
53:13
everybody. Thank you to all of our members, too, because
53:16
>> you are the only reason we can have our own space. So, thank you so much for
53:19
helping me, you know, make my my dream a reality. I’m I’m I’m grateful. I really
53:24
appreciate it.
53:24
>> That’s awesome, isn’t it? Isn’t it fun building this stuff?
53:26
>> Yes. Oh, and Asha for helping me run the business, which I have no idea how to
53:30
do. So, thank goodness she’s there. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Right, for helping
53:35
me run the business. Yeah. Thank you so much,
53:36
>> Awesome, dude. I I love that you have your own space. I’m super happy for you.
53:39
And again, I’ll be there uh whenever,
53:41
>> but we got to record some content there. We’ll do something.
53:44
>> I’d love to.
53:44
>> And we’ll get Brian involved back there.
53:46
>> Oh, that’d be awesome, man. That’d be awesome. But yeah, uh that’s it. We’ll
53:50
talk to you guys next time. Peace.
