I would love to hear from you. Send me questions or comments.
Grief can make the world feel smaller overnight, and widowhood can make you wonder who you even are without the person you built your days around. We’re joined by Cindy J. Burns, a grief coach, grief doula, and self-described widow coach, for an honest conversation about what helps when you’re tired of pretending you’re fine and you just want to breathe again.
We talk through the difference between a death doula and a grief doula, including how support changes from anticipatory grief at end of life to the raw, lonely weeks after the loss. Cindy breaks down a powerful reframe: moving from living in grief, where grief colors every moment, to living with grief, where it stays with you but doesn’t control every hour. Along the way, we dig into the practical realities people don’t warn you about like eating alone in a restaurant, walking back into a house that feels wrong, sorting belongings at your own pace, and learning tasks your spouse used to handle, from finances to car maintenance.
Cindy also gives permission to feel what you feel, including anger and even rage, and she shares simple ways to find micro-moments of joy without guilt. We close with gratitude as a daily practice, plus how to connect with Cindy at cindyjburns.com, including a free consult and her short quiz for widows to help pinpoint what’s keeping you stuck.
If this conversation helps, please subscribe, share it with someone who needs steady support, and leave a review so more grieving caregivers, widows, and widowers can find Patty’s Place.
Welcome To Patty’s Place
SPEAKER_00
0:18
Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we will talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. I'm your host, Lisa. I named this podcast in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia about two years ago. So grab your cup of tea, your cup of coffee, or if you're having a really bad day, a glass of wine, and come join us, and just so you know you're not alone. So today our guest is Cindy J. Burns. She is a grief coach, a grief doula, and a certified life purpose life coach and a happiness coach. So Cindy, welcome to Patty's Place. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02
0:52
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00
0:54
Oh, I'm I'm excited about this. So uh can you tell me what what is a grief doula? A grief doula is um have you heard of a death doula? I I have, but I don't exactly know what what they do.
SPEAKER_02
1:09
The death doula helps um prepare the family and the patient for um for want of a better word, a beautiful death. Okay. To die die death with dignity. Okay. But they also um help with advising on paperwork. Um they try to encourage the um patient to do a remembrance video or book or you know, something to to record their thoughts and feelings and things that they've you know wanted to say and that kind of thing. So a grief doula comes in after the fact. Okay. And um so I I can work with people who are freshly grieving. Um that's what the doula part is. Okay. The life purpose and happiness coach comes in a little bit later.
From Living In Grief
SPEAKER_00
2:15
A little bit like that. So I was gonna say, so with uh I'm sure when you're dealing with the end of life, there's that anticipatory grief. So is that what the uh the death doula would deal with, or was that something? Oh, okay. For that in terms even with the family members and that, that's what they would and they're usually present with the family at the time of death. Okay.
SPEAKER_02
2:38
If they can be.
SPEAKER_00
2:39
Okay. So I noticed you have on here on your and we'll talk about your website too as well, but how do you allow grief to become a powerful source of strength and growth?
SPEAKER_02
2:53
Well, what I do is I work with widows primarily. I'm a w I call myself a widow coach now. Okay. And um they're usually at a point in their grief where they're just tired of pretending to be fine. And I help them go from living in grief to living with their grief.
unknown
3:17
Okay.
SPEAKER_02
3:17
So you lose your identity a little bit when you lose your spouse. Um, you're not the same person you were when you were part of a couple, but you don't know who you are now. You know, it's it's hard. You have to figure out who you are, who you want to be, and I help with that.
SPEAKER_00
3:38
You you mentioned that you help them to go from living in grief to living with grief. Correct. So what's like that transition? Like what what's the difference between living in grief and living with grief?
Why Spousal Loss Feels Different
SPEAKER_02
3:51
When you live in grief, grief is your um primary emotion. It's it's what colors every day, every moment of every day. Um, living with grief, grief never goes away completely. Right. And living with grief means it's kind of under the radar. You're actually living a life, but you don't have to um, but you're not crying all the time, you're constantly in grief. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00
4:29
Yes, yes, yes, it does. And you mentioned you call yourself more of a widow coach. So can you talk a little bit more about how is losing a spouse different, a different type of grief?
SPEAKER_02
4:42
All grief, all grief is terrible. Yes, every grief is different. My father died in 2001, my husband died in 2011, exactly 10 years to the day of my father did. Okay. And my mother died two years later on Friday, the 13th of December in 2013.
SPEAKER_00
5:09
So I actually uh December 13th is actually uh I had two family members pass away on that day. Not on the same year, but the year after the next the following two years. So yeah. Something about that date.
unknown
5:23
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02
5:24
Each each grief, each time I grieved, it was a little different because of my relationship with one of my parents or my husband, because of um you you kind of expect that you're gonna outlive your parents. So it's hard. It's very hard, especially if you're really close to your parent. Um but unless they were part of your everyday life, you can you can go on. You can you can live a life and they're not top of mind after the initial grief. Right. Um, you know, eventually they're not top of mind. Whereas a spouse, they're part of your everyday life. You see them in the morning, you see them in the evening. If they're retired, you see them all day long if you're also retired. Right. Um, you make plans for the future, you talk about what you're gonna do in five years or whatever, you know, someday when we win the lottery, kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00
6:37
Right.
SPEAKER_02
6:38
And when that's gone, it's it just takes away your life because you don't know what's now now you have to create a new future for yourself, and you can't even think about it, you know, you can't imagine it.
SPEAKER_00
6:58
That makes sense. It really does that it it is a different type of grief with that.
Loneliness And The Baby Steps Plan
SPEAKER_02
7:04
Now I have a friend who um her mother was part of her daily life. They talked on the phone like 10 times a day. You know, they lived near each other, they visited, she saw her every day, and she died last year on um Mother's Day, and she's still grieving hard for her because she was part of her life.
SPEAKER_00
7:26
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean I I know what you mean when you you somebody's part of your life every day, it just becomes different uh for that. So what do you tell widows or widowers about handling the loneliness? Because my dad talks about that. You know, my mom and dad were married 54 years. Oh wow. So yeah, so uh how do you help them with that?
Returning Home Without Them
SPEAKER_02
7:54
Yeah, I was married for 33. Um baby steps. Okay, you don't you don't become unloadly you know, in one day. Right. What I do is I take people through um a series of baby steps. I have them try to think of a small goal, something that's fairly easily achievable, but they haven't done yet. Like eating in a restaurant alone. That's that's a big one. Um, that's a hard one, especially for women to do. So we do little baby steps. You know, it's like one day you're gonna get dressed up as if you're going out, but you don't have to. Another day you're gonna get dressed, you're gonna get in your car, and you're gonna drive past the restaurant that you want to go to. You know, little baby steps to help ease you into it so that by the time you actually go in and sit down, it's not so scary anymore. Um, so it's getting used to a new life, a new way of life. And for loneliness, you just you've got to get out there, you've got to find an interest. It's really hard to make friends as an adult. Yeah, it is. And unfortunately, when your spouse dies, you lose friends because they're part of a couple and they don't, you know, they don't want to make you feel like a third or fifth wheel. They um some people are uncomfortable around people who are grieving. Yes. So they don't reach out. Others are like, but we'll give we'll give him or her some space. Well, that's okay for maybe the first day or two. Right, right. You need to show up. Yeah. Um, that's that's my that's my advice for people who who know somebody who's grieving. Show up. Um but for the for person who is grieving, show up yourself, you know, reach out to people that you may have become estranged from for no, you know, no good reason, you know, no apparent reason. You didn't have an argument or anything like that. It's just you've lost contact. Um find a club. You know, find something that you're interested in. Um, join an art club, take some classes. Um you know, I joined Toastmasters. Okay. I joined I joined an art club and I was terrible at it. But I enjoyed the I enjoyed the camaraderie and the people that I met there.
SPEAKER_00
10:49
Um my dad's been doing some volunteering and that, so that that helps him uh with that. Yeah, that's another thing. Volunteer. What would you say about I know that for people who obviously you probably live together if you were if it was your spouse. What do you what advice or what do you say how hard it is being in that home now that they're not there anymore?
SPEAKER_02
11:15
When I after my husband died, he was in the hospital from May through August.
SPEAKER_00
11:20
Okay.
SPEAKER_02
11:21
And I stayed there with him the entire time. So when he died, I went back home to my house, and I just stood there with my leaning up with my back against the door saying, I can't go in there without him. And I think that was the first time my kids ever saw me cry. And um so that was difficult. But then obviously I had to go in and I did it. You have to work through um the pain. You've got to take that step, and chances are it may not be as bad as you thought it was gonna be. And if it is, well then change your routine or don't go in that room, or you know, keep his closet closed, you know, or you know, something like you know, different things to trigger. Um, you can either choose to embrace it and create um like a memorial table where you've got their picture and you've got little things that remind you. I've got this little guy here. Um that reminds me of of Dan. And um little things like that. The the when you look at it, you smile. And those those are very helpful. It's now if if they died in the house, that's difficult.
SPEAKER_00
12:54
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02
12:54
That is difficult, but maybe um not remodeling, but rearranging the furniture in the room they died in, um, painting the walls, put up new curtains, you know, whatever. Small things, don't change it completely. Right. But small things so that it doesn't remind you of them every time in a bad way. Okay. Every time you walk into the room.
SPEAKER_00
13:25
Right, because they may find comfort. You might find comfort if it reminds you of them. So then that's okay if you find comfort, or if it takes you a while to clean out some other things and stuff like that. You know, I I I think there's like two worlds of thought. Some people are like you gotta do it right away, and other people tell you it's okay. I think the combination of both, I think, is probably I don't want to say the healthiest, but maybe the easiest. Because some things you you do want to go through, and other things you're like, I just can't do this right now, you know. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02
13:57
Um he collected um magazines about railroads. Okay. And I knew I knew a fellow at church, so I gave him the magazines. That was that was easy to do. I still in my in the closet, I he was a um police officer before he retired. So I've got two of his uniform shirts in the closet still. And after he retired, he pretty much wore only tie-dye shirts. Okay. T-shirts. So I've got two of those in the closet as well. They're off to the side, and I, you know, I don't see them or notice them every day. But when I do, it makes me smile.
New Tasks, Rage, And Asking Help
SPEAKER_00
14:38
Yeah. Um I think, you know, I tell people too, yeah, you know, like sometimes I'll wear my mom's um some of her shirts or things like that, and it it brings me comfort. You know, there's a little jacket she used to wear all the time, and sometimes I'd, you know, put it on, obviously if I'm a cold, but or sometimes I just put it on because I want that comfort because she wore it all the time.
SPEAKER_02
14:56
Uh my mother's nightgowns.
SPEAKER_00
14:59
Yeah. Yeah. You know, sometimes it just or you know, something that they loved brings you, I find comfort with it. Um, what advice do you give widows that are about handling things that their loved one used to handle?
SPEAKER_02
15:14
It again, it depends on what it is. Um, if it's the finances, I would suggest if you've never handled finances before, um, and it's more than just paying the bills, I would I would talk with a financial planner. It does you most financial planners will work with anyone. You don't have to have a million dollars to consult a financial planner. Or go to your bank, make an appointment with a banker. That's free, you know. Um, and usually with a financial planner, your first visit is free as well. The consultation is free. Um, and they they love to help people figure things out, you know. They're number people. Right, right. I love that. I remember when my father-in-law died, my mother-in-law had never written a check. So my husband had to go over and teach her how to write a check. Um, so turn to people that you know and that you love, take a class if you need to. If it's something like handyman kind of things, or um, you know, changing the oil in your car, those are kind of things that you know you might want to pay somebody to do. Or find find a relative or somebody that'll do it for pizza or something.
SPEAKER_00
16:41
Right, right. What do you say for the anger? Because I know sometimes the anger comes up of the fact that you know they used to do this and now they're not here.
SPEAKER_02
16:51
Yeah, I was not prepared, I didn't call it anger, I called it rage. Okay, okay, it was I was not prepared for that. I I didn't expect it. Um there are a lot of cities and towns now have smash rooms or smash yards. You if they don't um go to like a local salvage yard or trash dump or something and ask, you know, can I break things here? You know, can I come in and break things? Yeah. And because that's what I wanted to do. Yeah. But I didn't have I didn't want to break anything of mine. Right, exactly. Yeah. And I actually thought about and I I'm scared to death of guns when my husband had it for his his work, I wouldn't touch it. Um, but I actually thought about going to a gun range and renting a gun and doing some target practice.
SPEAKER_00
17:57
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02
17:57
But I didn't, but I thought about it, and yeah, sometimes just thinking about it makes you feel better.
SPEAKER_00
18:03
Right. Because I know that brings on even more grief in that because it's like they used to do this, whether it was taking care of the car, like they took it in for an oil change or whatever, and they're not here anymore, or especially or repairs around the house and stuff like that, where you just feel like that's that trigger, like it all over again, because they're not here and they should be here to take care of it.
SPEAKER_02
18:24
Yeah. The first year I let my um my car license plates and the inspection lapse because Dan always did that. And it just didn't even dawn on me that it needed to be done at, you know, on a certain I never looked at the date until I got pulled over. Okay. But he was nice. He he let me he let me go. He said, just get it done. Okay. Yeah. Um, but yeah, you know, when when they do things like that, it is it is hard to to figure it out, but it gives you a sense of pride, it gives you a sense of accomplishment when you do figure it out.
SPEAKER_00
19:07
Yeah, because it is it can be overwhelming, you know.
SPEAKER_02
19:11
Very much so.
SPEAKER_00
19:12
Yeah, it can be. So do you tell people that it's okay if they just start crying about it or they feel rage?
SPEAKER_02
19:19
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00
19:19
Like it's it's just part of grief.
SPEAKER_02
19:21
And I tell everybody, feel your feelings, don't swallow them, don't keep them inside. I did that. Okay, I didn't want my sons, they were adults, but I didn't want them to see me, you know, crying or miserable. But the thing is they kind of wanted me to so that they could help comfort me, because that would have helped comfort them. And so I kind of robbed them of that, and then I ended up with a bleeding ulcer a few years later.
SPEAKER_00
19:56
So yeah, that's not good.
SPEAKER_02
19:58
Yeah, that's so yeah, feel your feelings. Uh, they can be overwhelming. You can start crying and you think you're not gonna stop, but you do.
SPEAKER_00
20:07
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02
20:08
You stop at least for that next hour, yeah.
SPEAKER_00
20:12
Yeah, and to also it's okay to ask for help too.
SPEAKER_02
20:15
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00
20:16
You know, if it if it's something that you've never done and and your spouse used to always do it, then ask somebody, hey, you know, do you know a good place to take my car? And sometimes as simple as that, you know.
SPEAKER_02
20:28
So many places um have a Facebook group where you can ask questions like that. You know, a local Facebook group, and you can go in and you can ask, you know, has anybody got um, you know, a car repair place that you would recommend? And you'll not only get the recommendations, but you'll also say, here, stay away from this one.
Joy, Laughter, And Gratitude Practice
SPEAKER_00
20:49
Right, right. Uh for that. It helps. Yeah. I know my dad um he struggled with cooking because my my mom did all the cooking. So, like things like that. He actually went to um it it in our the hospice that we go to, they actually had a um uh like a a session, a training session or seminar about cooking for one and how to you know how to work through all that because it is hard if you're always that other person always used to do the cooking, now you have to do that. That can be overwhelming too.
SPEAKER_02
21:23
You know, my husband did the majority of our cooking. I can cook, I just don't like it.
SPEAKER_00
21:28
Exactly you know, yeah, so it's like okay, but you have to eat, so now what do you do? You know, yeah. Um to do that. So you're also a happiness coach. So what is what is a happiness coach?
SPEAKER_02
21:43
I teach people or advise people to start looking for just small things that can cause them joy. Little tiny microseconds of joy if you have to. Um, for me, I don't like the color yellow. Okay, not in close. Clothing, not on walls, but seeing a really pretty buttery yellow always makes me smile. So I look around you know my room and see what I can find. It's yellow. Um, or I go online and look, you know. Um I also have a I haven't listened to it in a long run, but I have a a um sound file of a baby laughing. Because I'm sorry, you can't not smile when you hear that. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00
22:33
Sometimes I like follow the and I know they're all AI, but they're the AI babies like on Instagram. And I can't help it, it makes me smile. Okay. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02
22:41
So you find small moments of joy and eventually they add up. I was a pessimistic optimist. Okay. Where I didn't re I didn't really expect the good things to happen, but I hoped they would. Now I just I know things are gonna work out the way they're supposed to. I'm definitely an optimist. I I do, I smile and laugh. More times than I don't, I am mood-wise, I'm a completely different person than I used to be. I'm not quite sure when or how that happened. I think it was over time, you know, it was gradual, but also, you know, taking the happiness coach course helped a lot too.
SPEAKER_00
23:33
And would you tell people that it's okay to laugh when they're grieving, that it's okay to feel joy and laughter, that that's all joy and grief.
SPEAKER_02
23:43
Yeah, joy and grief can exist at the same time. They can coexist, they're not mutually exclusive.
SPEAKER_00
23:48
And and it yeah, it's okay, you don't need to feel guilty if you're laughing.
SPEAKER_02
23:53
No, because guilt is a big part of grief.
SPEAKER_00
23:56
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02
23:57
And there's there's no reason for most of it. Um, so you've gotta you've gotta come to grips with that. You've got to forgive yourself, you gotta forgive the doctors, you gotta forgive whoever you're you know, blaming. And forgive yourself when you laugh, you know. We laughed at my husband's um calling hours. My sons, we have six sons, and they're all they all try to outdo each other with the comments and the sarcasm and all that. And you know, it's the way we deal with things, it's dark humor. Yeah, but we laughed, and people probably thought we were nuts, but that's okay. That's who we are.
unknown
24:39
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00
24:40
Yeah. I I also saw on your website you have um that you say gratitude plays a role in grief, and you offer a 28-day gratitude journal. So how does how does gratitude play a role in grief?
SPEAKER_02
24:54
When you consciously look for something to be grateful for, eventually you don't have to look for it. It's just there. Okay. And I don't know if it's true, but they say that 28 days is what it takes to establish a habit. I think it's longer than that, but so yeah, learning to be grateful for little things. You don't have to be grateful for everything, but just little things, like the sun's shining today, you know. Um, my neighbor's rooster is growing, you know.
SPEAKER_00
25:31
Well, like yesterday, I was grateful because I had to take my dad um to the VA. And so it was supposed to storm, and I was just like, could you just please not have it storm when I'm driving? Because it's like an hour away. I'm like, I just don't want to drive in the rain to and from, and and it didn't. So I was like, Oh, thank you so much. Like, I just didn't want to have to deal with that, you know.
SPEAKER_02
25:52
And yeah, you don't have, I mean, I'm a Christian, but you don't have to be in order to feel grateful. Right. You can be you can just be happy that something good happened.
SPEAKER_00
26:03
You find a good parking spot. I'm always grateful for that too.
Coaching Support And Getting Unstuck
SPEAKER_02
26:06
Yeah, it's amazing all the little things, no matter how bad you think your day is going, when you make a conscious effort to look for something good happening in that day, it's amazing how it can change your whole mood and attitude for the day.
SPEAKER_00
26:24
It is, yeah. Like I don't think about it, but when I do try to consciously do this, it does make a difference. You do feel better with it. And like I said, start out small, like okay, it just didn't rain when you were driving. I I'm grateful for those things, you know. So you also work with people on your website, correct? People can work with you, uh, set up time to work with you together.
SPEAKER_02
26:48
Oh, yeah, yeah. Um, I work online primarily. Um I am working on setting up a grief group at my church. Um, but that's that's a little different. That's gonna, you know, that's gonna include anybody that wants to come. It's not part of my um business plan. Um, but yeah, I generally work with people online. We can do it through Zoom, we can do it um, you know, whatever video program they like to use, or we can just do it over the phone. You know, whatever, whatever the um the client is comfortable with.
SPEAKER_00
27:31
And your website is cindyjburns.com, correct? Yes. And that, and they can um like you said, you could do either for the the grief doula, the grief coach, life purpose, life coach, you kind of cover it all, happiness coach, everything.
SPEAKER_02
27:48
Yeah with that. Um like I said, primarily I consider myself a widow coach. But if somebody wants to talk to me, I'll talk. I we I have a 20-minute um free consult to see if you know we get along and if if you think I can help. Um and then there's for widows, I have I just put it up this weekend, I have a quiz you can take. Okay. And that's at Cindy J Burns.com slash quiz and then the number two. Okay. Because I had to try it twice. So they can't with that and that quiz kind of helps to see if it's Yeah, it's just a f it's just a four question quiz and it's it's not difficult. You can do it in under two minutes. And it it kind of helps put things into perspective. You kind of figure out where you are in your grief, what's causing you the most to feel the most feeling stuck. Okay. Because, you know, it took me seven years to realize that I was stuck in my grief. And I pulled myself out of it alone. And once once things started to turn around for me, I decided that I didn't want anybody else to have to go through that alone if I could help it. So that's where my business came into.
SPEAKER_00
29:23
How did you know you were stuck? Why do you say you were stuck for seven years?
How To Reach Cindy
SPEAKER_02
29:27
Because I was by that time I was retired, my kids were all grown. There was a few years in there where some of my children needed me to be there physically, one in Colorado, one in Virginia Beach, and um for one was multiple years, and the other was um a whole summer. But they they had different things going on, and um but after seven years, I was finally home. I was retired, and I had to get out of bed in the morning because my mattress was terrible, and if I didn't, I'd end up with a backache. But I get out of bed and move to my recliner and pretty much stay there the entire day watching TV or playing on my phone. And um one day I just I just looked at my life and I thought, I could live another 20 or 30 years. Do I want this to be my life for 20 or 30 years? And of course, you know, the answer was a big, huge no way. So that's when I consciously um made an effort to change. And it was it was baby steps, it took a while, but I'm so glad I did. And I wish I I wish there was a me back when I needed a me.
SPEAKER_00
30:55
Yeah, I I can understand that uh with it, you know, and it is hard. It's hard when you're in the middle of all of going through all that. You sometimes just don't know which way to turn with it. Yeah, so well, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate this. Thank you for having me. I enjoyed speaking with you. Yes, so the website is Cindy JBurns.com, so you can you know learn all about her services and hopefully you can help uh other people.
SPEAKER_02
31:21
Some of the links are broken, but I'm working on fixing that.
SPEAKER_00
31:24
Okay. All right. Well, there's your your contact one though works, correct? Yes, yeah, there's contact one. Okay, people can always do that uh for it. So, well, I hope everyone has enjoyed our conversation today for it, especially if you are a widow or widower. So I hope you enjoyed your cup of tea, your cup of coffee, or if you had that really bad day, your glass of wine. Uh, and please leave us a review, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and please join us again for another edition of Patty's Place.