Why Grief Has No Timeline: Interview with Grief Educator Lisa Rites

SPEAKER_01:
0:10

Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we'll talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. This podcast I started in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia about two years ago. And so I wanted to talk about things that help all of us. My name is Lisa, and today so grab your cup of tea, your cup of coffee, if it's a really bad day, grab a glass of wine, and we will get together and talk. So today we're actually gonna talk about grief. So our guest today is Lisa Wrights. She's a certified grief educator with over 40 years of experience in healthcare. Uh she brings understanding of emotional and physical healing to grief. And she has a book out that's called Navigating the Holiday. Yes. Correct. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yes. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you became a grief educator?

SPEAKER_00:
1:13

Sure. So as you said, I've been 40 years in healthcare and I'm a respiratory therapist. So I've dealt with mostly um terminal patients my entire career. Um so I was looking for something to kind of stay with that um feeling that I have compassion and empathy, and um discovered this certified grief educator and um went to school and um grabbed onto it and I'm loving it. And uh work with patients, um, sorry, work with clients and groups, um, just talking about grief, educating on grief, um, and working with a lot of caregivers and friends, um, trying to educate on grief also and handling grief with others. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:
1:59

And working with caregivers, so you talk a little bit about like the anticipatory grief. Correct. With that, because that's a difficult one to deal with, you know, when you're in the middle of it all.

SPEAKER_00:
2:11

It it definitely is, and I think a lot of people, especially if it's a family that's the caregiver, um, they don't understand and they kind of tend to get frustrated at times. Um, especially, you know, you were talking about your mom with dementia and this the show's about dementia. Um, my mother also just passed in March, and she also had dementia. And we had family members that were caregivers, and we also had nurses that came in um who were very compassionate. But um, you know, for my sister who lived with her, it got very frustrating at times because just not understanding and that repetitive motion that um dementia patients have. Um, so just trying to work with the caregivers and help them to understand. Um, one of the biggest things I found, especially with the patient themselves, is that they don't really want to be where they're at either. Um, and I think that's something as a caregiver, we don't understand that, you know, when they're repeating those stories or um they're telling you things, you know, sometimes they're not remembering that they've told you, and sometimes they're just highlights in their life that they want to relive. And kind of just sit there and listen. I try to tell the caregivers, be patient, be passionate, and just let them tell that story if they want to tell it five times. You know, it it's okay to to listen to that and try not to get too frustrated because the patient themselves is probably extremely frustrated that they don't have control over that anymore in their lives. And that can be very scary for both people.

SPEAKER_01:
3:51

Like it is, and and the other thing too, I experienced with that anticipatory grief was that I knew she was gonna get worse. And so, like, there were things that like my she she was in memory care and she uh she was able to use the phone for a while until someday she I'm not exaggerating. Sometimes she called me like between 15 and 30 times a day, you know. Sometimes she'd hang up the phone and call again. And people people would tell me, you know, the nurses, and that you don't have to answer it all the time. And I did answer it as much as I could. Obviously, if I was at work, I I couldn't all the time. But I knew in the back of my mind there was gonna come a time when she couldn't do it anymore, and I knew I was gonna miss that. And so I realized that with things like that, like and you know, like one minute they can walk really well and then the next minute they can't. Um, and and with any illness, one minute they're doing okay and the next minute they can't. And I don't think you think about that as a caregiver that that is anticipatory grief, you know. Correct. You know, correct. What do you think people don't understand about grief?

SPEAKER_00:
4:54

I think it's a uh not to say it was a taboo conversation back in the day, but I I feel like it's just something that's never spoken of. Um parents try to protect their children from it because it's taught that it's just such a sad thing. And nobody should have to deal with sadness at a young age, or no one should have to deal with sadness at certain times. Um, when there there really is other ways to get past and and have have other people learn about grief. Um, I do feel, I do feel we're all all of us in society are just undereducated on the stages. I think people are under undereducated on what grief really entails. That I found with clients, clients will come to me and they'll, you know, they'll be like, well, I lost my job and but my mom died. Well, the loss of the job is also grief. Yes, it is. You know, um, yeah, maybe maybe your your child has moved away. That also can be grief. And I think people just don't understand that. And um, it's okay to feel sadness and it's okay to go through the stages of grief when there is something like that that happens. You know, you shouldn't just push it aside. And I think as society, we're just taught that. Um, you know, so so I'm trying to educate more on the okay part, that it's okay to feel the way you do. And your life might look a little different.

SPEAKER_01:
6:26

Exactly. Yeah, people and they think that there's a timeline and there isn't with it, whether it's you lost a loved one, you lost a job, uh a major breakup in your life, you know, relationships and even pets, you know, that that's a huge. Yes, that's a huge relationship. And there isn't a timeline, and some days you might feel good, and another day you're just like uh I'm you know, crying your eyes out, or you're angry, or you're not sure. And I I agree with you, it's a taboo. People don't, oh well, you know, like, well, you you you did the funeral now, okay, you're back to work. Let's not talk about it. And you you need to feel those feelings.

SPEAKER_00:
7:04

Um Right. I do talk about that a lot with um now that you brought up work. I I think grief in the workplace is something that needs to be um taught because you're exactly right. You know, my mom passed away. I got my three days off from work, you know. Um, a couple days later, my mom was going to be buried because she was going to a veteran cemetery and they didn't have a place for her at that time. And I needed to take one more day off. And, you know, my boss was like, okay, you can take a personal day, you know, and yeah, you know, and and and that's that's exactly it. And it's just people don't understand that, and and then you're expected to come back to work fully okay. Yeah, you're not allowed to have those moments where I might need to step out of the office and cry for a half hour. Or, you know, um, and I just think um, and I'm working towards trying to create some programs for week uh for work uh workplace grief because I think there is um a need for it and an education for it.

SPEAKER_01:
8:05

I I would agree with that because even when you are back, yeah, they expect you to be at 100% and your brain just isn't. You're you're still in a fog. Like I know those first couple months when I came back, I I can't even tell you what I did. I know I probably made tons of mistakes, you know, just because I it and then all the other stuff you have to deal with too, you know, you've got the banks and the insurance companies and all that, you know, and I helped my dad with all that, but it's so much, and you're you're just not supposed to talk about it or say, I I'm having a bad day today, you know, uh with it, or I you know, I went to the store and I saw this and this upset me, or I heard this song, you know.

SPEAKER_00:
8:48

Exactly, exactly. And that's and like you were saying, that's exactly when grief pops back up. And and being it has no timeline, you could hear something a year later, yes, and it would remind you of the person who passed, or your breakup, or whatever your pet, you know, and it still brings you down, and and it's okay, you know. Um, I working with um again with caregivers or with the anticipatory grief, um, and trying to tell people, you know, just listen to what others have to say and try not to say to people that might be in grief, you know, you should be over it by now, or you know, I just don't want to hear about your loved one anymore, or oh my gosh, you never stop talking about that person. You know, maybe that person really just needs to speak of them and, you know, just sit quiet and let them speak and just say, wow, you know, I I I understand that, or yeah, I, you know, feel for you. But, you know, I think a lot of people don't know what to say when they're talking to others that are in grief.

SPEAKER_01:
9:51

I would agree with that. I I also think there's quite a loneliness to grief because because you do feel like you you can't talk for after a certain point, you're like, no, I can't say anymore about this or that. It makes other people uncomfortable. Where I I know at a certain point I told some people like I find comfort in talking about my mom, you know, that made me I wanted to talk about her and that. But yeah, a lot of people are like, oh no, you should be over it. Why are you right, you know? Um, it in I I went through grief counseling through our hospice because my mom had hospice at the end. Okay. And it was so I I tell everybody how wonderful they were because they have groups to support groups and different workshops and stuff. And the one thing everybody says is I don't feel alone because you're in this room full of all these other people that have experienced the loss and they know exactly how you feel, you know, right with it. So what are some suggestions that you you give to people who are going through grief and maybe maybe it's their first time and they just don't understand even understand what's going on with them?

SPEAKER_00:
10:56

Right. Um, so my first thing that I always tell my clients the day one is to journal. Um, journaling is a really big part of grief, I believe, for help. Um, whether you want to journal those pages, rip them up and throw them at a wall, or you want to journal lovely stories about that person and and and keep those stories. Journaling can be in many, many different ways. But if you're having a down day or you're just not sure what to do, just grab a notebook and write some things down, and it really helps to make you feel better. Um, definitely I um agree with you talking to somebody, such as you know, a grief educator like myself or going through grief counseling. Um, groups are always good, and you can find groups at almost all the churches now. They usually run grief groups. Um, with the world today and the way it is, there's so many people that are just grieving general society. That's true. So there are some just some really angry people. There are some very sad people. Um, and yeah, definitely getting someone to to walk beside you and help you through that, um, I think is a big step.

SPEAKER_01:
12:10

Oh, yeah, I I would agree with that. Yeah. And sometimes too, people don't realize you might see something on TV and that makes you think of your loved one, you know, or or you hear a story or that and you don't know why you're feeling that way uh with it. So can you maybe explain to people what's maybe the difference, what's the difference between a grief educator like yourself and a therapist?

SPEAKER_00:
12:33

So a therapist works more with you in, I want to say more like problem solving, giving you ways to um feel about yourself, where a grief educator um walks beside you and helps you educate, well, educates you and helps you to understand what you're going through at the time you're going through it. So I usually meet my clients where they are. Some are angry, some are in bargaining, some are in acceptance. Just depends how long they've been in grief. Um, and then I usually will walk beside them and give them, you know, ideas, depending on where they are at that point. Um, again, we always talk about journaling, but you know, it it could be, you know, I just did a lot of um education through the holidays. So we just got past, you know, some major, major holidays. And people not just just sitting and talking to them and and explain to them that when you're at your family's function, that it's okay if you want to step away from the table, if you don't like the conversation, or maybe you're just feeling really sad. And if it's at your house, it's okay to go upstairs. You know, don't feel like you're not allowed to step out of the situation. Um, some suggestions I gave to people was to make sure they had, I hate to quote an escape route, but a way out in case they needed to leave, you know, um, because sometimes it really can get daunting, or you think you're gonna be able to make it through a function and you get there and you just absolutely can't. And some people don't understand that. So, you know what? You just I'm not feeling well, and you step away, and it's okay to be able to do that. So, you know, as a grief educator, um, we are just educating through the stages and educating um along the way.

SPEAKER_01:
14:26

Yeah, and I think it's hard too, because sometimes you do have family members or friends that they really don't understand where you say, like, I I I need to leave or I can't do that right now. And sometimes they get mad at you and you don't know how to handle that, you know, it's hard. Right. And then you kind of grieve that relationship too, because it changes uh with that.

SPEAKER_00:
14:50

Right. And normally if if I had, you know, a client come to me, I think the difference between myself and a therapist where a therapist would be, you know, well, how did you feel after that? And how did you handle it? Where I would be more educating on that situation and maybe how we could have looked at it differently, or how are you feeling now and how are you going to move forward with that feeling? Because just like you said, that relationship may now change.

SPEAKER_01:
15:17

Yeah, it does. And it when we were talking about anticipatory grief or like the holidays or or different events, uh, I got an invitation today for a bridal shower for uh a family, and and of course I'm gonna go because it's a really important person in my life, but it it hit me because I realized this is the first type of event, bridal shower, wedding, that I'm not going with my mom. You know, and like I would out her and I always went to those things, you know, together. And I'm like, oh this could be kind of hard for me, you know.

SPEAKER_00:
15:50

Sure, even though it's gonna look different, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:
15:52

Even though I'm gonna be with family and I'm going because you know, she's an important person in my life, but it's like huh, that's that's gonna be different for me. It's a new a new thing, you know.

SPEAKER_00:
16:03

Um here's the thing the people there aren't gonna realize that it's going to be different for you.

SPEAKER_01:
16:08

No, they won't. And and they're not gonna realize. No, no, they won't. And and I know that going in, so like I have to prepare, you know, for those. But all those different types of things that you don't associate with grief all the time, and they just pop up, they just pop up, yes, they do. Yeah, and you're like, Oh, why am I feeling like this?

SPEAKER_00:
16:30

And you're like, Oh, this is why. Um even this year, um, you know, I said my mom passed in March. My mom loved to watch football. And Sundays my sister would bring my mom over and I would hang out, and you know, we'd watch the football games. And I, you know, this year looked very different for me because she was not there to watch football with me every Sunday. And I've done that for 60 years, you know, watch football with my mom and dad. Yeah, you know, but now it was different, and you know, for some people, you know, that might have been here that day, it's like it's another Sunday at Lisa's house having chili and watching football. But for me, my mom wasn't there now. So for me, it was different and it looked different and it felt different.

SPEAKER_01:
17:10

Yeah, yeah, it does. And sometimes you just don't even have the words to explain how it feels, you know, there's just like this emptiness type of a thing. And I do think it is your life is like before and after, so to speak. You know, how how you have to kind of handle it and think about things uh right with it. So you recently wrote a book.

SPEAKER_00:
17:34

I did. I did. Um, it's on grief and divorce. Okay. Um, again, another thing I didn't realize that agree, you know, when you're getting a divorce or end of a relationship has to do with grief. Yes. Because nobody tells you that. You know, I've watched many people in my life get divorced. Nobody talked about the grieving process of it, but it is a loss and it's a major loss, and it's going to reshape you and redefine you and change your life and the way it looks moving forward. Um, so it does have all the steps of grief. Um, but my book is it does each chapter talks about a different stage of grief. And then it's also my journey through my divorce. So um, you know, if it's the anger stage, I do talk about myself going through that anger stage and how I handled it and worked my way through it. And then it has some journaling pages and some questions for people to be able to answer about their own relationship. Um, you know, and then it, you know, it's about maintaining family bonds because my ex and I were able, after we got through a lot of it, um, we're able to come out of this with a relation, not you know, a friendly relationship, which um really works for my kids. So that's also in there. But if people can't find that, I hope they can just find some peace and maybe get some ideas to help them through their divorce um through the book. Yeah, and I just felt there was a story that needed to be out there because people just don't realize the two go together.

SPEAKER_01:
19:07

No, they don't. And and then when you say it, you're like, well, of course it would, because it's it's a loss, you know. Even when both people know it's the right thing and everything, it's still a loss, you know, right with it. Uh yeah, and and sometimes people are going through a divorce and the fam and a loved one is ill or they're going through different things, and it can be compounded with the grief. Correct. With it you don't even understand. I see on your website you also help people understand the different types of grief that you have on there.

SPEAKER_00:
19:40

Yeah, I do list uh do list a few different ones um because there, like you said, there's anticipatory grief. Um, you know, there's types of grief that come from suicide, there's types of grief um, again, that come from end of relationships. So there are different types of grief that you could have. Um, so yeah, I do do explain a little bit about that. And I do deal with mostly all of them. Um, I personally don't usually take on clients that have done suicide because I don't have a lot of experience in my personal life with that. And as a grief educator, we usually try to pair up with things we have experience in. Um, so it's it's a little bit easier to be able to help that person if I've been through the same thing they have. So um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:
20:27

Uh and the other another one on here too, like the delayed grief. I think that happens to a lot of people because sometimes when you're in the middle of it all, whether it's going through a divorce or caretaking and you're doing all that, sometimes you don't allow yourself to feel all those things. And then it could be six months later, and all of a sudden you're like, oh my God, what's happening? Right.

SPEAKER_00:
20:49

Right. Or a cut, like you said, a couple of things will happen and it will compound it, and then all of a sudden you you fall into the the stages. Um, and yeah, I mean, you could be you could be going through all the motions. Like you said, there's a lot to take care of when when a loved one dies with banking and you know, taking care of all that, and you could get through all of that, and then maybe you're getting near a holiday or near their birthday, and you start to get really angry because, you know, now you're you're like, whoa, what is happening? And you know, where why did you leave? And I have all these things to do, and you know, if you didn't leave, I wouldn't have to take care of this. And and then you kind of start that delayed grief because now you're moving into some of the phases that you haven't experienced yet.

SPEAKER_01:
21:37

And my dad it kind of happened to my dad a little bit like that. He um I'm I mean, he was there with me taking care of my mom and all that. But right after she passed, actually that day she passed, he starts cleaning out her room. You know, like that morning, I was looking at him like, seriously, you know, and then he was just like, you know, he he had the checklist of everything he had to take care of, and then we actually went. on a really really nice trip to Ireland. So then he was all focused on that until we went on the trip. And then after that he felt like completely fell apart. He's you know he wasn't feeling right. He he wasn't sleeping. He you know he had um he drove his car onto the sidewalk because he fell asleep like all this stuff. And then he's like, I think I might have dementia and I'm like oh my God, seriously like but but he hadn't really took the time to focus on his grief, you know?

SPEAKER_00:
22:28

Right. Right. So he was probably experiencing delayed grief because yeah you're getting and that's same thing like when you're pushed through the motions you're even in the beginning when you're pushed through the wake and the funeral and you know everybody's around and then all of a sudden everybody goes home. Yes. And now we have to have real life. So in your situation like you said he was cleaning things out you went on a trip and when he came back nobody was there now and everybody's life went on and his is going to change now.

SPEAKER_01:
22:58

Yeah. And so I was like I mean I got him into grief counseling and in that and it's helped him you know and stuff but I was just like you know and and we you know took him to the doctor we got him all checked out and he you know he's doing modern stuff.

SPEAKER_00:
23:10

But yeah I could see that because it was like well yeah it was much it was a lot better more fun to focus on going on a trip than sure to deal with everything else you know but I think a lot of people don't realize that there can be a delay in the grief process. Yeah you know um again because I think people don't really understand the whole grieving part. So you think well yeah I'm grieving because my mom passed and okay now we're done with everything so I'm back to work and that's it back to reality. I'm not allowed to grieve anymore because I'm not but you are and you're allowed to hold that the rest of your life if you want to you know um but always trying to move forward with that grief and you can always hold on to that grief and I tell people that and you can still move on and have joy in the other the other hand and still hold your grief. No one says you have to let go of that.

SPEAKER_01:
24:03

Exactly. Yeah I think people feel like oh well eventually I have to and you don't you they're always with you I I that's what I believe anyway.

SPEAKER_00:
24:11

You know right me too me too.

SPEAKER_01:
24:13

Yeah so if somebody is interested in purchasing your book how can they purchase your book?

SPEAKER_00:
24:19

It's available on Amazon and Barnesandnoble dot com. There is a link on my website also which is LisaWrightsgrief.com there are free resources on there if people need anything um I do a monthly blog they can read um I do have a newsletter they can sign up for and if people are interested in additional help you can sign up for a free consultation and we would take it from there to see if this is something you need.

SPEAKER_01:
24:46

Okay. So uh I will have the link to your website uh on my on the podcast page so it's Lisa Wright LisaWrightsgrief.com put that on there and I was looking on your website you do have a lot of good resources on there.

SPEAKER_00:
25:01

Oh thank you yes uh and that's where I saw actually you had the is it like a pamphlet or a little book about the holidays too yeah and I I actually have a few now um I have one about surviving grief um so I have um yeah three uh three ebooks now that are out um along with my book so um and they're if they go to the store there's a store the books are all available in there the ebooks.

SPEAKER_01:
25:24

Okay. So yeah I mean I think sometimes those are good for people to have just to recognize it right for that. Maybe understand what they're going through. Yeah because a lot of people they just don't they don't everyone's gonna experience it but we just don't want to talk about it. And we need to because Right we need to make us feel better. It it does it really does. It sounds crazy but it really does make you feel better when you can talk about your loved one or even just to feel like you're not crazy of what you're feeling. You know or like exactly yeah for it. Well thank you so much for joining us today on Patty's place. Yes and I'll have the link to your website and your book on there as well all right sounds great. So I hope everybody has enjoyed this edition. So I hope you enjoyed your cup of tea your cup of coffee or your glass of wine and you just sat back with us and realized that you are not alone in all this and we'll catch you next time on another edition of Patty's Place