Becoming An Orphan: Interview with author Ingrid Hanson-Popp

SPEAKER_00:
0:12

Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we're gonna talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. This podcast is in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia about two years ago. And so I'm your host, Lisa, and I wanted to have a place where people know that they're not alone when they have these difficult subjects to talk about. So grab yourself a cup of tea, a cup of coffee, or if you're having a really bad day, a glass of wine, and let's let's sit down and talk about. So today, my guest is Ingrid Hansen Pop. She wrote a book called Becoming an Orphan. Uh and it's all about her memoirs with her mom and different things about caregiving, you know, how to have those difficult conversations with siblings and everything. So welcome, Ingrid. Thanks, Lisa. Great to be here. I'm so glad this worked out. Yes. So in your book, um, well, tell me a little bit about your book first before we get into questions. Okay. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:
1:08

Okay. So, in fact, I meant to grab it off the shelf. Yes. Hold on. It's always close at hand. Yes. Um, becoming an orphan, a caregiver's guide to lovingly letting our parents go. And that book had to be written uh years ago. My mom had wanted to write the story of her life. And so I got to thinking one day, you know how could I help her make that dream come true? And so I helped, we started together and I started writing her memoirs. That's a book called Cellophane Farm. And uh I had a release party for that. And some people knew that. Uh-oh, I'm making a I'm making a mess here. Um looks like this. And that's our family farm. Oh, okay. And some people knew that I had helped mom at the end of her life. Once the book came out, she died kind of unexpectedly, and I had to finish it without her. And um people were were telling me all of their stressors and strains and upset about what was happening with their parents. I didn't ask for this, but they would say, as soon as they knew that I had helped mom at the end, uh they would launch into stories of, you know, mom broke her hip, what are we gonna do with dad? Uh you know, and what struck me was that all of these people were hardworking, smart, problem solvers, and they were at wit's end. They didn't know where to turn for help. And I really believe in listening for if God has something he wants to tell you, if you're listening, you'll hear it. And it was, you know, I think there's a I think there's a problem here. I think there's a need here to write this book. And so that's how that's how it came to be.

SPEAKER_00:
3:13

I would agree with you. You it seems like once you get into this particular area when you're taking care of your parents, all of a sudden you find other people and you start having that conversation because you really do feel alone when you first start going through it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:
3:28

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:
3:29

So, what kind of expectations do you think are sneaky about sabotaging your caregiving?

SPEAKER_01:
3:35

Oh that are you hearing that ding in my computer? I hope not. No. Any okay, good. Uh oh, sneaky indeed. Well, first of all, that you're responsible to fix everything. And I think secondly, if you do something that doesn't work so well, that you feel guilty or it's your fault. And that the amount of tasks it depends. I'm I'm a task, make a list sort of person. Yes. And if that's your personality, you will make the list, you will make the plan, and then the plan changes because your parents' health condition changes or whatever. And so that's what starts to drive you nuts. But you're gonna still go after that task, no matter if you're abandoning your own children or you know, neglecting your own husband or your household or your health or your job because you think there's something in you that says, I have to do it all. Yes. Yeah, or I'm not a good, I'm not a good daughter, I'm not a good child. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:
4:56

And that is not correct. Yeah, there are it is hard to ask for help, and sometimes you don't know where to go for help.

SPEAKER_01:
5:06

Right. Hence the book. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:
5:09

Um, as you you kind of alluded to, what uh what are some other pitfalls that people can avoid when they're caregiving for their aging parents?

SPEAKER_01:
5:18

That alone thing, that lone ranger thing, even if one of my one of my uh interviewees, my fellow orphan, uh, he was an only child and his dad was gone already, and his mom he was taken care of. It doesn't matter if you have a big family or you're an only child, you don't have to do this alone. And so sometimes uh if I think about the the first thing I would advise is you step back and look at what is my life right now? Do I have kids in school? Do I have a full-time job? Uh what can I, you know, or maybe you have a job that you can alter your hours, or you could go part-time. So you look at those things, but then you ask, who else is on the radar? I could ask for help. And it might be a neighbor. For example, one of the things I think we we tend to forget depends on where you live, it depends on how far away you are from your parents and whatnot. But we forget our parents' network. They may have great neighbors that are like, they'd love to help, but they don't know what to do unless you call them and ask them.

SPEAKER_00:
6:42

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And it is hard to ask for help because yeah, you think, well, I have to take care of it. Um, I have found, I mean, I am an only child, but I I kind of have, and I've had this conversation with other people too. Even if you have brothers and sisters, it does seem like there's always one person that it falls on, and then they and then they feel even angrier because they're like, why am I doing all of this all the time? So it's like, why do you think there's so much conflict when you're caring for an aging parent?

SPEAKER_01:
7:14

No, there are very real reasons, and I think part of it, a huge part of it is that the shift and it depends on your relationship with your parent, maybe close, maybe estranged, maybe anywhere in between. But the expectation is, and that's that's what trips us up, right? Always that we have expectations we don't realize it, is that our parent is the one that's been taking care of us, or even just supporting us as young adults, you know, they're like, hey, what's going on with this, and you know, don't worry about that, or giving us advice, and then all of a sudden they can't, and our whole foundation goes tipsy. Yes, it does. You know what I mean? Yeah, and um, and I think the other reason is in the conflict, again, whether your family's really close, you have siblings, for example. But it's funny you should say it always seems like one person takes the lead. Just personality-wise, I think, but um that it's emotional, it's so emotional because if our parents start feeling that we know we don't think about it, and some families talk about it, some don't, that means they're eventually going to be gone. And that this is the end, this is the beginning of the end, and it's emotional because we wouldn't be here without our parents, right? That relationship is so completely unique, even if you're adopted or we're fostered or whatever, whoever's in that parental role or nurtured you, um we wouldn't be the people we are without them. Very true. So the loss of them, I think hits us broadside, and we don't realize that that was a great question, exactly why. But I think that's why, because the relationship is completely unique.

SPEAKER_00:
9:22

Yeah, it is, and I think too, it also goes into everybody's different coping skills, where, like you said, some people take the lead and they want to make this work, and other people are like they can't face it, or it's too hard for them to do it, so they just they don't step up, and then that creates all of that uh animosity and more conflict. Um, and then some people think they have more of a say, and then it's like I I feel like I feel like illness brings out the worst in people. I don't know why, but it kind of does, you know. It kind of does. So it and carrying on with that, like why do you think like as a family it's so hard to come up with a plan for you know there's a there's beyond the emotional and all the uh potholes in I think the illness highlights the the weak links in our family dynamics because generally a family has figured out how to function.

SPEAKER_01:
10:28

Like, you know, I'm gonna go to this birthday party, but I'm gonna stay for an hour and then I'm out of here. And then I can be nice and whatever. Right. Well, like you said, illness all of a sudden brings another shift to uh all those coping mechanisms as a family, whatever whatever the emotional uh wisdom is within each person. But the other uh the other thing we found, and and mom wasn't super ill, she at the end, but it was we my sibling, my I have an older sister and older brother. As soon as I told them what was going on, you know, we're all on high alert, and all of us were like, okay, let's make a plan. You can't make a plan necessarily because you don't know what the next medical event's gonna be, what the next fall is gonna be, accidents gonna be, you don't know how somebody's uh disease, whether it's cancer or Alzheimer's, you don't you don't know. Nobody knows how that's going to progress. So that's what we found is uh it very quickly, you're like, well, we should do this and should do this and we should plan for that. But it it never really held together because you don't know what's coming.

SPEAKER_00:
11:58

It's very true. And I think sometimes just like the simple things, like say with the holidays or birthday parties or different things like that. I feel like some family members will be like they're understanding and they know whether it's dementia or it's cancer or it's any other type of a disease, that well, maybe my family member, my parent might not be able to make it, you know, to that event, or maybe they can only stay a little bit. And then I feel like there's other people that are like, Well, what do you mean they can't come? Like, and it's just like I feel like it just gets crazy because it's like you're trying to do what's best for that person who is who's sick or who's getting older, you know. Like, even as you get older, sometimes they get tired and they don't want to stay longer and not not to get upset, it's not personal, you know.

SPEAKER_01:
12:48

Correct, you know, and it's reality, it's not it's not a personal problem.

SPEAKER_00:
12:54

Yeah, yeah, it's even as simple as as like I noticed with my dad. Um, my dad will be 80 this year, and for a long time, he just he prefers not to drive at night, you know. And I've to, you know, it doesn't bother me. Like if we are going somewhere or whatever, I'm like, I'll pick you up, I'll drive. Because I would rather do that for him, you know, or even like my uncle, who's in his 70s, is like, yeah, I don't like to drive at night anymore. Okay, but for some people, like that would just be what do you mean? You know, and it's like it's just simple little things sometimes can just make life easier, yes, all around with it.

SPEAKER_01:
13:31

We started we started doing that. My mom eventually lost her driving privileges, and uh our small family lives only a little over an hour apart from one another, and so we knew that for my mom and her sister, the matriarchs of the family, getting together for holidays was like the thing for them. I mean, it was just their absolute highlight, they just loved it. So, between my cousin and my brother and us, we would handle the picking up and driving home and even the location of, well, let's can we have it at your place because you're a little more centrally located. But yeah, we'll bring it's it's a wintery night for Christmas, not a big deal. We'll bring her home.

SPEAKER_00:
14:12

Yeah, those types of things for people to think about. Sometimes I think for some people it it's harder for them to make those adjustments because, like you said, it means they're getting older, and that I mean, we never know, you know, some people live with when with anyone, sure. Sorry, you know. So how one way you know, like how do you know when your parents might need help?

SPEAKER_01:
14:36

Hmm. You have to they're rarely gonna ask you. This thing is true, safely say this is true, yes, and I think there's uh there's a bit of a stealth mode, uh spy gene that has to kick in. So again, uh it depending on if you've been if you if you live closer or you stop in to see your folks more often than say another, we have a younger brother, my David, David's, my husband's younger brother lives in Colorado. And so, and our his folks are in um Illinois, so they have a different perspective, and so in fact, we have it on our but you kind of know what your folks' routine is, generally speaking. So I think being in stealth mode, for example, is in there when you're in your parents' home, everything from so I'm just gonna grab something out of the fridge, mom. And how's how are things looking in there? Do we have moldy food? Do we have enough food? Is it empty? Is that weird? Uh, to you know, mom's always been an amazing housekeeper, and you're like looking at the kitchen sink going, wow, there's dirty dishes sitting in here, like that have been here for days. So it you look for those things, I think, to alert you, or paying attention, even in their in their own home. There's a in my in-laws home, there's a step down from the kitchen area to the fireplace room, whatever. And how how is mom navigating that step? Is it like a big hairy deal when it was never a deal before? So I think it's looking for those little things, but the I think the harder part is when you notice it, how do you ask about it?

SPEAKER_00:
16:34

That's very, very true. Um, because with with my mom, I noticed different things. Uh, and she was actually very mobile, considering she had dementia. She had it for a while, but yeah, she didn't know she had it, and so she would get upset when we would mention things. But my mom was a great, she was an excellent cook, and that started to change, like different things, like you know, and just she wasn't able to follow, like she loved watching TV and movies and you know, especially mysteries, and she could figure out who was the killer before anybody else, and like she couldn't follow, you know, and and she was a big reader and she wasn't reading anymore, those types of things. But how do you navigate when you know they need help but they're stubborn? Like I fight this with my dad, just simple things like when he gets a cold. I'm always like, All right, well, if you don't feel better by this time, I need to take you in because I think you might have bronchitis or pneumonia, you know, and he fights me every time.

SPEAKER_01:
17:33

Yes, you know, it's um I think behind the questions, this was this was after my own mom passed. I I hadn't realized that her eyesight was uh diminishing. And so I like I said, I I didn't do it well because I was just like, oh my gosh, she's so lazy, she's not like doing her dishes, what the heck? And it was way later than I thought, oh well, first of all, it's because she didn't have enough energy to do it, because something was off with her thyroid. And secondly, her eyesight was bad. She couldn't, she couldn't see the dirt or the whatever. I mean, she never was, but I think it's trying before you bring up a topic or ask about because it can come across as judgment so quickly. This is why in my book, I hit my editor and I had a had a little debate about that lovingly. Yes. Let's parents go. And I'm like, no, no, that's staying in the title. Because if you don't keep compassion, well, how would I feel about it? You know?

SPEAKER_00:
18:52

Yeah, and my mom, even though she didn't know she had dementia, she she would tell people, she'd be like, Oh, she just she just thinks she knows everything. She's just, you know, there she is, she's grown, and now she's trying to tell me what to do and all that. And I'm like, I'm not ma, you know. Oh, she'd be like, Oh, these grown kids, they just think they know it all. She'd be like, No, I just you know, but I I did. I then tried to see things from her point of view when I understood more. But I noticed that even with like friends and stuff, sometimes they'd be like, Well, my mom's just not moving, she's not doing this or whatever. And so sometimes I'd be like, Well, maybe there's a reason, or you know, or like, hey, they're this how many years old?

SPEAKER_01:
19:30

They have a right to not do it anymore, you know, like right, you know, or to simply ask, uh so let's see, how could you do this? For example, um, well, and the other thing is I think especially parents who live on their own, whether they're single or or married, they they become they're they're already in a defensive position, yeah, probably from what their peers have gone through. And so let's say my mother-in-law has trouble with going down this step, and I notice it, and it may be well that that is your knee hurting you, because I know she fell recently. Um, is that knee still bothering you? Or, you know, are you are you gonna get you know some physical therapy for that knee? Because I noticed that step is a little bit like you know, difficult for you and it and it hasn't been before. But it is it is hard, and you know what? I think it's the this is I'm I'm not I'm not very far on the um the uh the on the growth line here, but dealing with conflict and letting it be okay that whether it's your siblings or whether it's your parent, they're not real happy with what you just said or what you just did or what you're suggesting, and then you just leave it. It's okay for that's that's giving them dignity, which is and respect is for all of us to have our own emotional responses to whatever. And sometimes it's you say it as kindly and thoughtfully as you can, but you just planted a seed, theoretically.

SPEAKER_00:
21:25

Yeah, I I think that that I I've learned that sometimes that's the best way is to do that, to be like, you know, just think about this. Yes, and then you kind of let it go a little bit, and then a lot of times then like they'll call you or that and be like, you know, I'm not really feeling that good. Would you, you know? Yes. Which is hard when you know you need to do it, but I I get it, like it, you know, like you said, because I wouldn't always like it if somebody was coming at me that way either. You know, and I I think we forget sometimes because we worry about it, you know, there are parents. We want them to be okay. We sometimes just no, you have to do this, you know, and you know, we have to, like you said, give them dignity, which is really it I think too, it's like with any type of illness or that you have to give that person that respect. Let them make those decisions and just know that you're there, you know. Yes, which is hard uh with that. Do you have any suggestions when you're talking about siblings to get them to help? Because I know that's like I said, for me it wasn't, but I know it is for many of us. Yes, yes, it can be. I I've witnessed it with my friends. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:
22:38

Well, several of my um several of my uh fellow orphans that I interviewed for the book. I you asking the question, I'm suddenly grabbing, I I'm suddenly growing in respect for these particular people because, for example, one woman said, Well, it it fell to my sister and I, who were more local, to take care of mom, because our other sister just wasn't managing her own life, and our brother lived far away and just didn't want to participate. And her takeaway was you know what? Sometimes it's nicer to have more people, siblings help. But if they're kicking and screaming, it's it's not helpful and and it just creates more conflict. And she said, with just the two of us, we shared responsibilities, and most of the time it worked out fine. And I I was in charge of this, and she was in charge of that. The one lady was a nurse, and she said, I didn't always agree with how my sister did things, and she didn't always agree with me, but we had discussed, okay, I'm gonna take care of the medical stuff, you take care of the you know, all the other legal stuff, yeah, the financial stuff, yeah. And so it's leave it's letting them, it's giving dignity to your siblings, and and that whole sometimes it's understandable, sometimes it's not, sometimes again, you have to, I think it's the standing back and and and taking that sibling relationship or that sibling thing and just like an object and just turning it around and looking at like, huh? Okay, let's let me think about my siblings' life right now. You know, are they going through a divorce? Are they struggling with um substance abuse? Are they uh do they have teenagers who are in trouble? And maybe it's just like one too many things.

SPEAKER_00:
24:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:
24:43

And so, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:
24:45

Yeah, I was gonna say, I think that's probably the hardest thing for on anybody in in this whole situation is to be able to step outside of yourself and look at it from whether it's your parents' point of view or your siblings or or that, you know, lovingly and be like, oh, okay, because you feel so overwhelmed by it all.

SPEAKER_01:
25:04

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And now one of uh uh one of my interviewees had said, uh, oh I know it's in the mental health chapter. A friend of mine has been a she's a therapist for her whole career, and she contributed a mental health exactly how to take care of yourself. And it was um, and her advice was um to just ask that sibling, maybe they live far away, or maybe they're just like kind of da da da don't want to be involved, to just ask do you want me to call you to like an email you like when there's another medical development, or does that work for you? Do you want to be in c do you want to be in the loop just of information? Let me know.

SPEAKER_00:
25:58

Yeah, that's yeah, I mean it there's so many different things to maneuver when you know, because even when it comes to it's your parents, your siblings, but then your parent is also a sibling. So then you have all of that, how it all trickles with that, and it it can be very it can be very overwhelming. What what would you say is the most uh foundational thing in helping or idea for in helping your aging parent in general?

SPEAKER_01:
26:28

Yeah, we touched on some good good things a little more peripherally, like keeping that dignity piece in place, but it really is. Um I keep I keep looking at my book. Um so it has the little geese flying there. Yes, and so in the Midwest, right? The geese migrate. Yes. And the point is you'll never see one goose migrating by itself. Oh, that's true. Ever. Yeah. And it's the team. You have to create a team. Like I said, one of my one person in the book was an only child, another was one of 10 siblings. Oh my gosh, I can't even imagine, right? I'm sure you can't. That's a lot of people to maneuver, yeah. Yeah, um, but is creating your team and getting creative up about creating a team. And I think the for the whoever is kind of ends up being the lead caregiver, uh, what's really important for that person is to identify a friend that you can call when you just need to vent.

SPEAKER_00:
27:43

Yeah, that that's that would be yeah, that is very important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:
27:46

And to ask them, again, it's the it's like baby steps for someone like me of okay, here's what I'm asking. You tell me if this is okay. Like, yeah, what are your what are your limitations? Because one of the things that that I find rarely works is that if you're if you're upset about a situation and you and you're trying to vent, venting to your siblings, or in your case, like to your to your mom's siblings, is not gonna help. All of a sudden you just threw gasoline on the fire, is what happened. Yeah, you know, but if you can have a friend's like, I just need you to listen to me. Can uh this like yeah, and I'll ask you if I want advice, like should I do this or should I not? But I'm just maxed out here, and so that would be creating your team is is is that friend for yourself to just keep you in the sanity lane, you know? Um and then thinking a little bit outside the box, as well as being willing to let go of okay, so for example, my mom couldn't drive, the otherwise she ran her life perfectly well, whatever. And uh as long as she had her phone, she was good. And um she was a people person, and uh so I thought, oh, wait a minute, I live a little over an hour away. How am I gonna help her? How am I how am I gonna find the time to drive an hour down there, take an hour to get her to rehab, to grocery shopping, to her church meetings, and then drive all the way home. I was like, wait, time out. So I called her church. There it is, her community. I called, I grew up in it was my home church as well. So the lady who the secretary knew who I was, knew who mom was. She'd served and lived, you know, was part of that church for 60 years. And she's I told her what I was after. I'm like, I just need like drivers, just mom can get in and out of a car, find. I just need drivers. She's like, Oh, I know exactly who to call. It was a five-minute conversation, and I didn't have to drive anywhere.

SPEAKER_00:
29:57

Yeah, I I appreciated that because there was a um probably eight-month period where my dad wasn't able to drive, and I did. I had to I had to like ask people to help me because I was I was working and I I couldn't always take them. And so I was very appreciative of that. And you know, now he's able to drive local, so I was like, okay, you know, but I still I still worry. Like sometimes I'm like, what do you mean you went here or there, you know, with it? Yes, right. So um let's go. The title of your book is Becoming an Orphan, uh uh Caregiver's Guide. A caregiver's guide uh to lovingly helping your parents. Let me our parents go. It's long.

SPEAKER_01:
30:37

I know. That's but where can someone purchase it? Okay, uh, if you go to Barnes and Noble, that would be that would be easy peasy. And uh if somebody wants to get in touch with me, and I have all sorts of other resources on my website, which is just becoming an orphan.com, becoming an orphan.com and uh little little short radio spots that I've done. Uh there's a support group that's online, just short, sweet, like for that venting or problem solving with people who are in the same situation or at one stage of the situation or another. So all sorts of things on the website as well that can help for resources. But the book, yeah, if you get to barnesandnoble.com would be great.

SPEAKER_00:
31:23

Okay. I will definitely put all this information on there. So becoming an orphan uh dot com, we'll have that on there so people can do that and hopefully reach out and uh purchase the book, look it over at barnesandnoble.com. Thank you so much, Ingrid, for joining us here on Patty's Place today.

SPEAKER_01:
31:39

You're welcome. It was great. We I know your heart is to help whoever's listening to like navigate this better and well. So, same here.

SPEAKER_00:
31:50

So, so hopefully everyone has enjoyed their cup of tea, cup of coffee, or their glass of wine for that. And you know that you're not alone. There is communities out there for everybody. So hopefully, you will join us again for the next episode of Patty's Place.