Category: Podcasts

# The Art of Wellness Podcast – Episode 18
## Why Your Training Program Sucks

**Hosts:** Dr. Gerry Robles, PT, DPT & Ramy Daoud

—

**Ramy (00:00:00)**
My time is better spent focusing on that I’m good at.

**Gerry (00:00:03)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:00:04)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:00:04)**
I tried to do it all, man.

**Ramy (00:00:05)**
You know?

**Gerry (00:00:06)**
And I keep trying, and I’m exhausted sometimes.

**Ramy (00:00:09)**
This could be tiring, man.

**Ramy (00:00:10)**
It’s like just like someone should come to you, they could probably Google some stuff and do a little bit on their own, but going to you is the best.

**Ramy (00:00:18)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:00:18)**
Yes.

**Ramy (00:00:19)**
I think that’s the same fucking thing.

**Ramy (00:00:21)**
Right?

**Ramy (00:00:21)**
Like, I

**Gerry (00:00:21)**
could do it.

**Gerry (00:00:22)**
That’s a good point.

**Ramy (00:00:22)**
But why not go to somebody who that’s their actual, like,

**Gerry (00:00:26)**
their expertise?

**Gerry (00:00:27)**
That has, yes, some sort of background in it.

**Gerry (00:00:30)**
We have no background in it.

**Ramy (00:00:31)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:00:32)**
Exactly.

**Ramy (00:00:32)**
Exactly right.

**Gerry (00:00:33)**
Anyways, welcome back to the podcast.

**Gerry (00:00:36)**
I’m Jerry.

**Gerry (00:00:36)**
Rami’s here.

**Gerry (00:00:38)**
And today, we’re gonna talk about why your training program sucks.

**Gerry (00:00:59)**
Maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t.

**Gerry (00:01:01)**
But, we’re gonna have to decipher what makes a good program and a bad program.

**Gerry (00:01:07)**
But I wanted to ask you Yeah.

**Gerry (00:01:09)**
What’s your current training regimen throughout the week?

**Gerry (00:01:12)**
For myself, personally,

**Ramy (00:01:14)**
so I’m very lucky in that I do a lot of training and sparring with my students during practice.

**Ramy (00:01:21)**
So that way, I, you know, you I get to best of both worlds.

**Ramy (00:01:24)**
I’m teaching.

**Ramy (00:01:25)**
I’m working with my students, but because of the nature of the the job, it’s very physical.

**Ramy (00:01:30)**
It’s very active.

**Ramy (00:01:32)**
As the gym grows, it’s kinda less fun for me because before, I’d always be in the class as well as coaching the class.

**Ramy (00:01:39)**
As the classes grow, it’s better to be a coach and just be on the sidelines and, Oh,

**Gerry (00:01:44)**
this guy fell over.

**Gerry (00:01:45)**
Anyways, keep going around

**Ramy (00:01:46)**
me.

**Ramy (00:01:46)**
I’ll

**Gerry (00:01:46)**
just hold it now.

**Gerry (00:01:49)**
And, I was telling you, your program sucks.

**Ramy (00:01:51)**
No.

**Ramy (00:01:51)**
I’m just kidding.

**Ramy (00:01:54)**
So, yeah, I know when the gym gets bigger, I’m training less because I have to keep eye on more people.

**Gerry (00:01:58)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:01:58)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:01:59)**
In which case, I make sure we once a week, we have two hours of sparring that we do every week.

**Ramy (00:02:04)**
I spar as much as I can during that week.

**Ramy (00:02:06)**
And then in between seeing clients, I’m at the gym, so that’s when I’ll hit the bag.

**Ramy (00:02:11)**
I’ll shadowbox.

**Ramy (00:02:12)**
I’ll do body weight stuff.

**Ramy (00:02:14)**
So I’m active.

**Ramy (00:02:15)**
I’m breaking a sweat.

**Ramy (00:02:16)**
I’m doing something physical seven days a week for sure, whether I like it or not.

**Gerry (00:02:19)**
Seven days a week?

**Ramy (00:02:20)**
Seven days a week.

**Ramy (00:02:21)**
Okay.

**Ramy (00:02:21)**
But I wouldn’t say it’s like a training routine of that would be too much.

**Ramy (00:02:25)**
So I find it there’s a difference between coaching and training.

**Ramy (00:02:30)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:02:30)**
Okay.

**Ramy (00:02:31)**
The way I coach is active.

**Ramy (00:02:32)**
I’m showing the techniques.

**Ramy (00:02:33)**
Yep.

**Ramy (00:02:33)**
I’m demonstrating.

**Gerry (00:02:34)**
If we

**Ramy (00:02:34)**
have a odd number of students, I partner with somebody so that we have even number of students.

**Ramy (00:02:39)**
So a lot of times, I’m doing the whole class with my students too.

**Gerry (00:02:42)**
Mhmm.

**Ramy (00:02:42)**
So it can be, it could be a lot.

**Ramy (00:02:44)**
If anything, I typically usually need to scale back rather than do more.

**Gerry (00:02:49)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:02:49)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:02:49)**
So That’s kinda what we’re gonna talk about today in a way.

**Gerry (00:02:52)**
But so you said you wanna scale back possibly.

**Gerry (00:02:55)**
Do you do you feel like your recovery is pretty good throughout the week?

**Gerry (00:02:58)**
Do you feel recovered for your next session?

**Ramy (00:03:01)**
Good question.

**Ramy (00:03:02)**
I mean

**Gerry (00:03:03)**
Be honest.

**Ramy (00:03:04)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:03:04)**
Sometimes, no.

**Ramy (00:03:05)**
I could feel it’s it’s it’s very hit or miss.

**Gerry (00:03:08)**
Yes.

**Gerry (00:03:08)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:03:08)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:03:09)**
Some weeks, I can train seven days, but because I don’t go overboard.

**Ramy (00:03:13)**
Right?

**Ramy (00:03:13)**
I’ll spar a couple rounds.

**Ramy (00:03:15)**
I’ll shadowbox.

**Ramy (00:03:16)**
I’ll get a good warm up.

**Ramy (00:03:17)**
I’ll do some drills with my students Mhmm.

**Ramy (00:03:19)**
And I’ll stop.

**Ramy (00:03:19)**
Then I’ll focus on coaching.

**Ramy (00:03:21)**
If I’m training, you know, seven days a week now, my body’s shot.

**Gerry (00:03:25)**
I

**Ramy (00:03:25)**
wake up way too sore, stiff.

**Ramy (00:03:28)**
It’s hard just to do normal things, let alone sparring, training, something like that.

**Ramy (00:03:33)**
That’s why I noticed I need a lot of warming up just to feel loose and to get things going.

**Ramy (00:03:38)**
And that’s when I could tell, like, no.

**Ramy (00:03:40)**
I need

**Gerry (00:03:41)**
So do you structure it at all?

**Gerry (00:03:43)**
Like or you just kinda go with the flow?

**Ramy (00:03:45)**
Unfor at this point, just because of the fact that we have a new gym and it’s so hands on Mhmm.

**Ramy (00:03:50)**
I don’t think there’s, like, a plan structure for my training.

**Ramy (00:03:54)**
It’s working in between what I’m doing at the gym.

**Ramy (00:03:57)**
Yes.

**Ramy (00:03:57)**
Now if I were, you know, in competition mode right now, I’d look at it very differently.

**Ramy (00:04:02)**
I would structure and have a plan and but I’m not competing right now.

**Gerry (00:04:06)**
I don’t

**Ramy (00:04:07)**
have any tournaments coming up, nothing like that.

**Ramy (00:04:09)**
So I’m just staying active by working with my students.

**Ramy (00:04:12)**
So I do believe you can be active seven days a week as long as you are wise in terms of your output.

**Ramy (00:04:18)**
Yes.

**Ramy (00:04:18)**
I do think.

**Ramy (00:04:18)**
And that’s

**Gerry (00:04:19)**
what we’re gonna talk about right now, being wise with it.

**Gerry (00:04:22)**
I mean, a lot of the athletes I work with are trying to do too much.

**Ramy (00:04:26)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:04:27)**
And this is what I have to call the multi session paradox, meaning, like, people wanna be three sport athletes at the same time, and your nervous system can only handle so much.

**Gerry (00:04:40)**
And recovery, as we both know

**Ramy (00:04:42)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:04:43)**
Is essential.

**Gerry (00:04:44)**
And if you’re trying to do if you’re trying to do weightlifting do you do any weightlifting, by the way?

**Ramy (00:04:49)**
No.

**Ramy (00:04:49)**
I don’t.

**Gerry (00:04:49)**
No.

**Gerry (00:04:50)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:04:50)**
So just all, combat stuff.

**Ramy (00:04:53)**
All combat stuff.

**Ramy (00:04:54)**
Okay.

**Ramy (00:04:54)**
I do some body weight.

**Ramy (00:04:55)**
Actually, you know, I do, like, push ups, pull ups, some stretches that I’ve learned from, like, yoga.

**Ramy (00:05:00)**
So all body weight stuff.

**Gerry (00:05:02)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:05:03)**
But combat sports, as you know, does involve some resistance training even if people don’t think of it as traditional resistance training.

**Gerry (00:05:09)**
Yes.

**Gerry (00:05:09)**
Gotcha.

**Gerry (00:05:10)**
And then so trying to do all those things at once is a recipe for, you know, minor aches and pains, little tweaks here and there.

**Gerry (00:05:18)**
I’m trying to think of and I’ll I don’t know.

**Gerry (00:05:20)**
I’m not gonna call some people out later, but people that I’ve worked with these last couple weeks that they try to do a powerlifting competition, a marathon, and then also do, like, like, Muay Thai or something at the same time.

**Ramy (00:05:34)**
Wow.

**Gerry (00:05:35)**
And, you know, again, I love that people wanna be active and do all these things.

**Gerry (00:05:39)**
At the same time, when I tell them to give me their training regimen, their their program, I could see they’re just doing way too much.

**Gerry (00:05:46)**
And, you know, they come in for the first visit, the PT evaluation.

**Gerry (00:05:51)**
They are, we’ll come we’ll come back to that in a second.

**Gerry (00:05:54)**
But, it’s kinda like I look at their program, and right away, I’m like, there’s no recovery days.

**Gerry (00:06:04)**
There’s no days where your body can reset.

**Gerry (00:06:07)**
It’s, you know, your muscle, strength and nervous system overload, all that stuff.

**Gerry (00:06:13)**
And then that’s when those little aches and pains creep up.

**Ramy (00:06:16)**
Yes.

**Gerry (00:06:17)**
And they come to me and again, I I love rehauling their whole program.

**Gerry (00:06:21)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:06:21)**
It’s a big part of PT.

**Gerry (00:06:22)**
Like I said, we talked about it last time.

**Gerry (00:06:24)**
It’s not just me massaging somebody.

**Ramy (00:06:26)**
Right.

**Ramy (00:06:27)**
Right.

**Gerry (00:06:27)**
It’s a holistic way of looking at your programming and the aches and the pains that you have.

**Gerry (00:06:32)**
Because, again, if you’re keep doing the same thing over and over again, those pains are gonna get worse and worse when it turns into something big.

**Gerry (00:06:38)**
And then you’re really coming to me, like, this really hurts.

**Gerry (00:06:40)**
I can’t even walk.

**Gerry (00:06:41)**
I can’t bend over.

**Gerry (00:06:42)**
My shoulder, I can’t lift it up.

**Gerry (00:06:44)**
I’ve seen a billion of those as well.

**Gerry (00:06:46)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:06:46)**
So even though, like, people come to me, they show me the training.

**Gerry (00:06:49)**
I’m like, what are you doing?

**Gerry (00:06:50)**
Like, you’re doing way too much.

**Gerry (00:06:51)**
I’m glad they kinda caught it early.

**Gerry (00:06:53)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:06:54)**
So, like, what’s something you tell your your students?

**Gerry (00:06:57)**
Do you, like, structure training programs for them, and how do you do it for them?

**Ramy (00:07:01)**
It depends.

**Ramy (00:07:01)**
If someone’s coming in to learn boxing for fun, usually just on their own, they’ll probably train twice a week.

**Ramy (00:07:07)**
So there’s no need for me to have them pull back.

**Ramy (00:07:09)**
But Mhmm.

**Ramy (00:07:10)**
It’s when I have competitors, people who wanna compete, then, yeah, we have to talk about training.

**Ramy (00:07:16)**
For people to compete, I require a minimum of three days a week of practice.

**Ramy (00:07:21)**
Some people will think that’s way too little.

**Ramy (00:07:23)**
I think with three solid training sessions a week I mean, I’m not I think I know because we’ve had people win competitions Yep.

**Ramy (00:07:30)**
Just training three days a week.

**Ramy (00:07:33)**
You know, whereas, like, in high school sports, in any sport, you have practice every day after school.

**Ramy (00:07:39)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:07:39)**
Yep.

**Ramy (00:07:39)**
And I think when people get that mentality, they’re like, well, if I I should more is always better.

**Ramy (00:07:47)**
Right?

**Ramy (00:07:47)**
That’s kind of the mentality that they they come to me with.

**Ramy (00:07:50)**
Then there’s people who wanna compete that train once or to those people who need they need to be doing more.

**Ramy (00:07:54)**
So you have to find a balance.

**Ramy (00:07:56)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:07:56)**
Yep.

**Ramy (00:07:57)**
With combat sports, it’s unique because you not only have to be in fantastic physical condition, but you need to have a high skill set in whatever discipline you’re competing in.

**Ramy (00:08:07)**
So you not only need to be practicing enough to be in shape for the sport or competition, but you also need to be practicing enough where you gain certain amount of skills.

**Ramy (00:08:14)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:08:15)**
So with competitors, I will talk to them individually and create a training plan.

**Ramy (00:08:19)**
I will tell them also when it’s time to pull back.

**Ramy (00:08:23)**
A lot of times, it’s mentioned.

**Ramy (00:08:24)**
I have a injury.

**Ramy (00:08:25)**
You know, my foot hurts.

**Ramy (00:08:27)**
I can’t do this.

**Ramy (00:08:28)**
And Yeah.

**Ramy (00:08:28)**
Tell them.

**Ramy (00:08:29)**
And sometimes I’ll even have them be like, hey.

**Ramy (00:08:30)**
Let’s not do this competition.

**Ramy (00:08:31)**
Let’s do the next

**Gerry (00:08:32)**
one.

**Gerry (00:08:32)**
Oh, yeah.

**Ramy (00:08:33)**
And that’s a tough conversation to have.

**Gerry (00:08:34)**
Very tough.

**Ramy (00:08:35)**
And that’s not what people wanna hear.

**Ramy (00:08:37)**
But as a good coach, your job is not you’re not a cheerleader.

**Ramy (00:08:41)**
You should be a coach.

**Ramy (00:08:42)**
So my job is not to tell them what they wanna hear.

**Ramy (00:08:44)**
My job is to protect them even when they can’t protect themselves because of their own ego to provide.

**Ramy (00:08:50)**
So Yep.

**Ramy (00:08:51)**
That’s my ultimate responsibility.

**Ramy (00:08:53)**
And that’s why I also have the minimum amount I require before competition for their safety.

**Ramy (00:08:59)**
Yep.

**Ramy (00:08:59)**
I know if somebody’s training consistently and training diligently, that they’ll be safe in competition.

**Ramy (00:09:04)**
I don’t need them to win in competition.

**Ramy (00:09:06)**
They’re indeed at.

**Ramy (00:09:07)**
But I know if they’re prepared correctly, they will at least be safe.

**Ramy (00:09:10)**
Whether they win or lose, their safety is my ultimate, priority.

**Gerry (00:09:14)**
So As it should be Yeah.

**Gerry (00:09:15)**
Because it’s a rough sport.

**Ramy (00:09:16)**
It’s a rough sport inherently.

**Ramy (00:09:18)**
Yes.

**Gerry (00:09:18)**
Yeah, man.

**Gerry (00:09:18)**
It’s tough.

**Gerry (00:09:20)**
So when it comes to combat sports Yeah.

**Gerry (00:09:23)**
I know a lot of training.

**Gerry (00:09:25)**
Well, people try to, like, cross over things.

**Gerry (00:09:27)**
And when it comes to combat sports, you know, trying to relate to your your world over there

**Ramy (00:09:32)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:09:33)**
A lot of training well, correct me if I’m wrong Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:09:36)**
Should be more in different of motion.

**Gerry (00:09:38)**
So, like, when people train Yes.

**Gerry (00:09:40)**
Or just, like, weight lift these days, a lot of these things are done in the sagittal plane of the human body, you know, front to back.

**Gerry (00:09:47)**
Right?

**Ramy (00:09:47)**
I

**Gerry (00:09:47)**
don’t know if I could demo this.

**Gerry (00:09:48)**
I’d like to stand up and just kinda do what I’m let’s see if I can try this.

**Gerry (00:09:52)**
Why not?

**Gerry (00:09:52)**
But let’s say a lunge.

**Gerry (00:09:53)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:09:53)**
Lunge is just forward and back plane.

**Gerry (00:09:55)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:09:55)**
A lunge.

**Gerry (00:09:56)**
Same thing with a bench press, forward and back.

**Gerry (00:09:58)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:09:58)**
When a lot of times, like, when you’re doing, you know, when you’re throwing a punch, when you’re throwing a kick, there’s a lot of rotation in it, a lot of lateral, movements.

**Gerry (00:10:07)**
So, you know, this kind of next I’m gonna talk about with you is, like, working different planes of motion, which I think a lot of people ignore.

**Gerry (00:10:13)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:10:14)**
Especially when they’re they say they’re training.

**Gerry (00:10:15)**
They’re just training in one plane of motion.

**Gerry (00:10:17)**
Mhmm.

**Ramy (00:10:17)**
If you

**Gerry (00:10:17)**
wanna be more athletic, you wanna train in different planes of motion, the transverse plane, the frontal plane.

**Gerry (00:10:23)**
Because especially when with fighting, rotation’s huge.

**Gerry (00:10:26)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:10:26)**
When you’re throwing a punch, throwing a kick.

**Gerry (00:10:28)**
And, you know, I have a few fighters right now that I’m working with, and sometimes they just don’t do that.

**Gerry (00:10:34)**
And I I have to implement that with them.

**Gerry (00:10:37)**
And implementing those things will help clear up some of the shoulder pain they’re having pain, knee pain as well.

**Gerry (00:10:44)**
But let me know your thoughts.

**Gerry (00:10:45)**
I mean, does that make sense?

**Ramy (00:10:46)**
It makes perfect sense.

**Ramy (00:10:47)**
It’s so interesting you say that, because, of course, I’m not as not nearly as familiar as you are with these terms and principles, but it’s so cool listening because, intuitively, I realized that we’ve been doing a lot of that just on intuition.

**Ramy (00:11:02)**
Right?

**Ramy (00:11:03)**
For example, grappling.

**Ramy (00:11:04)**
We have three grappling practices a week.

**Ramy (00:11:06)**
I try to make sure that each practice is completely different, so that we are working different movement techniques, not just different techniques, different positions entirely.

**Ramy (00:11:16)**
Right?

**Ramy (00:11:16)**
So if we did submissions from the guard on Wednesday, on Friday, we’ll work foot sweep.

**Ramy (00:11:22)**
Something has nothing to do with Wednesday’s practice.

**Ramy (00:11:25)**
So it sounds like, according to what you’re saying, that it it kind of does fit with what you’re saying.

**Gerry (00:11:30)**
And

**Ramy (00:11:30)**
in my mind, I’m thinking different movements, a different position, working different skills, and that way you’re not exhausting the body by kind of just doing Just hammering motion.

**Ramy (00:11:41)**
Yes.

**Ramy (00:11:41)**
Exactly.

**Ramy (00:11:41)**
You’re right.

**Gerry (00:11:42)**
Yes.

**Gerry (00:11:43)**
And people just kinda they need to work in different motions, different planes, like I said.

**Gerry (00:11:48)**
And, you know, like, let’s say, you know, throwing a punch or whatever or throwing a kick.

**Gerry (00:11:54)**
Right.

**Gerry (00:11:54)**
I said a lot of rotation.

**Gerry (00:11:57)**
You know, working different exercises can help build that power and explosiveness for a punch, for a kick.

**Gerry (00:12:01)**
Like, let’s say, like, you know, save a med ball right here.

**Ramy (00:12:04)**
Right.

**Gerry (00:12:05)**
A med ball rotational throw explosive can help throw a punch, a kick, things like that.

**Gerry (00:12:09)**
And working those into your training program

**Ramy (00:12:11)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:12:11)**
Working them in correctly, not just doing them 100% intensity out, can do wonders for people who are trying to compete or build that power, build that that force in their punch.

**Ramy (00:12:21)**
Makes sense.

**Gerry (00:12:22)**
I mean, with it it translates to any sport too.

**Gerry (00:12:24)**
Like, again, like, when you’re running in soccer or something, and you’re pivoting in your your lateral movements and stuff like that.

**Gerry (00:12:30)**
No real sport is just kinda well, not real.

**Gerry (00:12:33)**
A lot of sports are still real.

**Gerry (00:12:34)**
But, like, the most major sports, you’re you’re moving in different planes of motion.

**Gerry (00:12:38)**
So you have to work those planes of motion to translate into whatever you’re trying to do.

**Gerry (00:12:42)**
And people, I don’t know if it’s old school mentality or they’re just stuck in a squat bench deadlift mentality.

**Gerry (00:12:49)**
There’s so many ways to work the human body that people forget about to translate to be more athletic to your sport, whether it’s, you know, jujitsu or or boxing or soccer or basketball.

**Gerry (00:13:01)**
And, you know, when I see their program and just kinda they’re kinda working just one plane Yeah.

**Gerry (00:13:06)**
You know, I I pick it apart for them and we kinda implement these things.

**Gerry (00:13:09)**
And like I said, slowly but surely the aches and pains that they had start to slowly go away.

**Gerry (00:13:15)**
And again, it’s a whole it’s all individual.

**Gerry (00:13:18)**
Like, use is different.

**Gerry (00:13:18)**
Right.

**Gerry (00:13:19)**
And we have to kinda, like, tailor it to them.

**Gerry (00:13:21)**
And that’s why, you know, what we do is is so individual.

**Gerry (00:13:25)**
Like, you as a semi private combat sports coach, me as a private PT Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:13:29)**
We’d be we’re as individual as it gets to somebody and personalized as it gets.

**Gerry (00:13:33)**
And I love doing that.

**Gerry (00:13:34)**
So,

**Ramy (00:13:36)**
Interesting.

**Ramy (00:13:36)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:13:37)**
I find that a lot of students who come to me who are very active, I always tell them when they describe their workout routine, I can’t help but think this sounds like a nineteen eighty two holding routine.

**Gerry (00:13:50)**
And I think Average bro gym bro split.

**Gerry (00:13:52)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:13:53)**
And imagine we’re still it’s that typical, like, on Monday, I do this.

**Ramy (00:13:57)**
On Wednesday, I do this.

**Ramy (00:13:58)**
On Friday, I do this.

**Ramy (00:13:59)**
Chest, back.

**Ramy (00:14:00)**
And I tell him, like, this was created for bodybuilders.

**Ramy (00:14:03)**
Like, you know, this is not created to be an athlete.

**Ramy (00:14:05)**
Yep.

**Ramy (00:14:05)**
And isn’t that interesting how this the training hasn’t progressed much for the average gym goer since literally, like I know.

**Ramy (00:14:13)**
Arnold Schwarzenegger and the Pumping Iron documentary.

**Ramy (00:14:15)**
Like, they’re following that pro but then you ask them their goal.

**Ramy (00:14:18)**
Is your goal to be a professional bodybuilder?

**Ramy (00:14:20)**
Great point.

**Ramy (00:14:20)**
Nobody will say, yes.

**Ramy (00:14:21)**
It is.

**Ramy (00:14:22)**
They wanna be athletes.

**Ramy (00:14:23)**
Mhmm.

**Ramy (00:14:24)**
But they don’t train like athletes.

**Gerry (00:14:25)**
Yep.

**Ramy (00:14:26)**
Now if you ask somebody to mimic movements from, like, gymnastics, let’s say they’ll be like, what?

**Ramy (00:14:31)**
That’s crazy.

**Ramy (00:14:32)**
Right.

**Ramy (00:14:32)**
But a gymnast is far more athletic than a bodybuilder.

**Ramy (00:14:36)**
Right?

**Ramy (00:14:36)**
And to me, I would rather have the physical capability of a gymnast rather than a bodybuilder.

**Ramy (00:14:42)**
Now if somebody does just want to create Right.

**Ramy (00:14:45)**
Aesthetic, I have no issue with that.

**Ramy (00:14:46)**
I’m not one of those people that knocks it or I understand people have different goals.

**Gerry (00:14:50)**
Right.

**Ramy (00:14:50)**
But for me, personally, my focus is mobility, longevity, flexibility, functional strength.

**Ramy (00:14:58)**
I wanna be able to use the body that I have.

**Ramy (00:15:01)**
I don’t wanna just have the aesthetic.

**Gerry (00:15:03)**
And, you know, yes.

**Gerry (00:15:05)**
For some reason, those that those splits, those average splits Yeah.

**Gerry (00:15:08)**
Like chest then back and then legs or whatever.

**Ramy (00:15:11)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:15:12)**
For some reason, that’s translated into different sports for whatever reason, and people still do it.

**Gerry (00:15:18)**
At the same time, like like you said, I’m not knocking it.

**Gerry (00:15:20)**
If that’s what they wanna do and they’re just training for aesthetics and feeling good, that’s completely fine too.

**Gerry (00:15:25)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:15:25)**
But the people we work with and I work with

**Ramy (00:15:27)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:15:27)**
They’re doing marathons.

**Gerry (00:15:29)**
They’re doing, jiu jitsu competitions.

**Gerry (00:15:31)**
Right.

**Gerry (00:15:31)**
They’re doing they play soccer, basketball, pro boxer, and they wanna be more athletic.

**Ramy (00:15:37)**
Right.

**Gerry (00:15:37)**
And like I said, you can’t just keep working in the same plane of motion, like, just benching and getting stronger and bench, which is great.

**Gerry (00:15:43)**
Yes.

**Gerry (00:15:43)**
It’s great for the average Joe.

**Gerry (00:15:44)**
But if you wanna be, like I said, better at lateral movements and throwing a punch Yeah.

**Gerry (00:15:50)**
Or, you know, mobility of your spine when jiu jitsu kinda has you all crumpled up doing whatever and in your guard or whatever.

**Ramy (00:15:56)**
Right.

**Gerry (00:15:57)**
You can’t just be deadlifting forever.

**Gerry (00:15:59)**
Yes.

**Gerry (00:16:00)**
And, yes, you could work those in as well.

**Gerry (00:16:02)**
There’s a time and place for those.

**Gerry (00:16:03)**
But if that’s all you’re doing prior to your sport Right.

**Gerry (00:16:06)**
Work on some stuff.

**Gerry (00:16:07)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:16:09)**
Something else I wanna talk about was, like, conditioning.

**Gerry (00:16:11)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:16:12)**
What is something you tell your students about, like, cardio?

**Gerry (00:16:16)**
Like, how do you improve your cardio for combat sports?

**Ramy (00:16:21)**
So this is something I think about so much because when I first, started competing, my goal was to have this endless gas tank where I could be at a 100% for the whole duration of a fight.

**Ramy (00:16:34)**
Mhmm.

**Ramy (00:16:35)**
I I wish I could say I quickly realized it was not a realization.

**Ramy (00:16:39)**
After years, I realized there was no such thing and that nobody has that infinite gas tank, that efficiency is the most important thing.

**Ramy (00:16:48)**
And I think in the last time last time we spoke, I said I’d rather have somebody be slightly undertrained but have a high level of skill than be a little slightly overtrained.

**Ramy (00:16:58)**
I’ve learned now that I see people who can spar ten, twelve rounds, and they might, on paper, be in worse shape than somebody who’s fatiguing in two or three rounds.

**Ramy (00:17:08)**
In combat sports, stress plays such a huge role too.

**Ramy (00:17:11)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:17:11)**
Oh, yeah.

**Ramy (00:17:12)**
Like, seeing a punch being thrown at you will increase anybody’s heart rate, I imagine, because it’s something that causes stress.

**Ramy (00:17:18)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:17:18)**
Yep.

**Ramy (00:17:19)**
So if you can stay calm during dangerous situations, if you are mechanically efficient.

**Ramy (00:17:24)**
So if a wild punch think of an untrained person.

**Ramy (00:17:27)**
We’ve all seen, a street fighter or a untrained person fighting.

**Gerry (00:17:32)**
Yep.

**Ramy (00:17:32)**
There is no mechanical efficient.

**Ramy (00:17:34)**
It’s like big swings, and that’s how long the fight

**Gerry (00:17:38)**
lasts.

**Gerry (00:17:38)**
Yep.

**Ramy (00:17:39)**
Ten, twenty

**Gerry (00:17:39)**
If you missed your guess That’s it.

**Ramy (00:17:41)**
But then you see a high level fighter be able to look fresh or sharp in the third round in MMA or the tenth, twelfth round in boxing.

**Ramy (00:17:49)**
And it is, of course, because they’re in wonderful shape.

**Ramy (00:17:52)**
Mhmm.

**Ramy (00:17:52)**
But they’re also efficient with their technique.

**Ramy (00:17:55)**
They are staying relaxed.

**Ramy (00:17:56)**
That’s huge in combat sports.

**Ramy (00:17:58)**
Staying relaxed is more important than having good cardio.

**Ramy (00:18:02)**
And I’ve seen people who are long distance runners come take Yep.

**Ramy (00:18:06)**
My class and puke in the first, like, 30.

**Ramy (00:18:09)**
And they’re shocked.

**Ramy (00:18:10)**
They’re like, I could run 26 miles with this completely different.

**Ramy (00:18:13)**
You’re not running.

**Ramy (00:18:14)**
There’s no comfortable pace.

**Ramy (00:18:16)**
Right?

**Ramy (00:18:16)**
A marathon runner, and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m not a running expert, some of the skill comes from finding a pace and being able to stick with that pace.

**Ramy (00:18:25)**
Right?

**Ramy (00:18:25)**
Mhmm.

**Ramy (00:18:26)**
That’s why if you do a hill sprint, it’s much more taxing early on than, you know, you could be 90 and run a marathon.

**Ramy (00:18:32)**
There’s been nine

**Gerry (00:18:33)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:18:33)**
There’s not many 90 year olds that can run up a hill 10 times.

**Ramy (00:18:37)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:18:37)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:18:38)**
I think it’s gonna be less people who can run up that hill.

**Ramy (00:18:42)**
So when you’re not setting a pace at sports, you can’t set a pace because your partner is not working with you to set a pace.

**Ramy (00:18:49)**
Yep.

**Ramy (00:18:49)**
They’re gonna be trying to disrupt your rhythm, and that creates that kinda up and down, up and down movement and pace that is exhausting.

**Ramy (00:18:58)**
Yep.

**Ramy (00:18:58)**
In MMA, I noticed when I do MMA sparring, it’s more tiring than boxing sparring.

**Ramy (00:19:02)**
I might get taken down.

**Ramy (00:19:04)**
I have to try my best to come back up.

**Ramy (00:19:05)**
By the time I’m back on my feet, I’m gassed out, and it’s been two minutes.

**Gerry (00:19:09)**
Also, information overload is anything could happen in MMA fight.

**Gerry (00:19:12)**
Take you down.

**Gerry (00:19:13)**
They could throw a kick, a punch.

**Ramy (00:19:14)**
So Yes.

**Gerry (00:19:15)**
Yes.

**Gerry (00:19:15)**
Sorry.

**Ramy (00:19:15)**
Oh, no.

**Ramy (00:19:16)**
No.

**Ramy (00:19:16)**
So I’ve learned that, yeah, having a good aerobic base is important.

**Gerry (00:19:20)**
Yes.

**Ramy (00:19:21)**
But being relaxed, staying calm from in my world

**Gerry (00:19:24)**
is Yeah.

**Ramy (00:19:25)**
Just as important, sometimes more important.

**Gerry (00:19:27)**
I like that.

**Ramy (00:19:27)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:19:28)**
That’s why you could see a a Nate Diaz take that first Conor McGregor fight on short notice

**Gerry (00:19:32)**
Oh, yeah.

**Ramy (00:19:33)**
And do well.

**Ramy (00:19:33)**
Conor was the one who was tired first despite having a full training camp.

**Gerry (00:19:36)**
Yep.

**Ramy (00:19:37)**
Why?

**Ramy (00:19:37)**
Nate Diaz is a lot more relaxed than he was.

**Ramy (00:19:40)**
Yep.

**Ramy (00:19:40)**
Conor was like, I gotta finish this guy.

**Ramy (00:19:42)**
I gotta knock him out, throwing heavy shots.

**Ramy (00:19:44)**
He fatigued.

**Ramy (00:19:45)**
Yep.

**Ramy (00:19:45)**
Nate Diaz is, you know, doing his typical pop up in.

**Ramy (00:19:47)**
He beat him.

**Ramy (00:19:48)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:19:48)**
Yep.

**Ramy (00:19:48)**
More relaxed, less stressed, probably a lot more, high also, but way more relaxed than Conor McGregor.

**Ramy (00:19:58)**
And I think that makes a a big difference personally.

**Gerry (00:20:01)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:20:01)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:20:02)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:20:02)**
I mean, that makes complete sense, especially the being relaxed part.

**Gerry (00:20:07)**
I wanted to talk about, like, also, do you tell your students, like like, road work or something?

**Gerry (00:20:13)**
Do you tell them to do any of that stuff or sprints, things like that to improve their cardio?

**Ramy (00:20:17)**
I so I try to folk I try to focus on things that I believe I’m have some expertise in.

**Ramy (00:20:26)**
Mhmm.

**Ramy (00:20:26)**
I am not an expert in anything or anything.

**Ramy (00:20:31)**
Like, if in my when I was competing, I almost never ran long distances.

**Ramy (00:20:35)**
I almost never.

**Ramy (00:20:36)**
Cool.

**Ramy (00:20:36)**
I think, though, however, I don’t think that people should mimic what I did.

**Ramy (00:20:39)**
It worked for me.

**Ramy (00:20:40)**
Right?

**Ramy (00:20:41)**
Yep.

**Ramy (00:20:41)**
Some of my students run long distances and have very good cardio and training.

**Ramy (00:20:46)**
Mhmm.

**Ramy (00:20:46)**
Some of my students run long distances and do not have very good performances during training.

**Gerry (00:20:51)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:20:51)**
Mhmm.

**Ramy (00:20:52)**
So I try to tell people that what will work for them will be very specific to them

**Gerry (00:20:58)**
Mhmm.

**Ramy (00:20:58)**
But that’s important to have a strong aerobic bay.

**Ramy (00:21:00)**
To get there is up to them.

**Ramy (00:21:02)**
Like, that’s how I’m more of, like, a hands off person when it comes to that.

**Gerry (00:21:06)**
Gotcha.

**Ramy (00:21:06)**
If people ask me, I will try to advise them.

**Ramy (00:21:09)**
I’ll recommend both, you know, long distance work

**Gerry (00:21:12)**
Mhmm.

**Ramy (00:21:13)**
And I’ll recommend sprinting and

**Gerry (00:21:16)**
This is what I wanna talk about.

**Ramy (00:21:17)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:21:17)**
Perfect.

**Gerry (00:21:17)**
That makes perfect sense.

**Gerry (00:21:18)**
This episode is brought to you by Thorne Supplements.

**Gerry (00:21:21)**
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**Gerry (00:21:24)**
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**Gerry (00:21:52)**
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**Gerry (00:21:55)**
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**Gerry (00:21:59)**
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**Gerry (00:22:02)**
So, like, I had somebody come I had multiple people come in with these same issues.

**Gerry (00:22:07)**
I don’t wanna call them issues, but so they’re doing a lot of sprinting work.

**Ramy (00:22:12)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:22:13)**
And this is on top of their overall programming, but my whole point, what I wanna say was with conditioning and cardio is it’s good to build a base of of lower intensity cardio, like a zone two cardio.

**Gerry (00:22:25)**
Everybody loves zone two nowadays.

**Gerry (00:22:27)**
What does that mean?

**Gerry (00:22:27)**
It means like a conversational type.

**Gerry (00:22:29)**
You’re running and you can hold the conversation.

**Gerry (00:22:31)**
That’s zone two.

**Ramy (00:22:32)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:22:32)**
So it’s good to build that base.

**Ramy (00:22:34)**
Yes.

**Gerry (00:22:34)**
While also gramming incorrectly your sprints, your high intensity

**Ramy (00:22:38)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:22:38)**
Interval training.

**Gerry (00:22:40)**
That that aerobic base, that zone two base is good for recovery.

**Gerry (00:22:44)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:22:45)**
So it’s good for I’m trying to think of a good analogy for it, but, like, like, your phone.

**Gerry (00:22:51)**
Like, let’s say sprinting is the the app that’s taking up all the battery in your phone, and, zone two cardio is a charging cable.

**Gerry (00:23:00)**
And if that cable is all frayed and beat up, it’s not gonna recharge your phone.

**Gerry (00:23:04)**
And that app of high intensity interval is gonna keep take out of your ear.

**Gerry (00:23:07)**
So if you build up that that cable with good, aerobic based zone two programmed accordingly Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:23:15)**
The the your recharge your recharge rate will be better.

**Gerry (00:23:18)**
Your recovery will be better.

**Gerry (00:23:19)**
So it’s good to have both.

**Gerry (00:23:20)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:23:20)**
At the same time, people overdo both.

**Gerry (00:23:23)**
So, again, working with someone like myself, to get those things kinda more in a better programmed way as opposed to just running forever and then puking and

**Ramy (00:23:32)**
Right.

**Gerry (00:23:33)**
Not knowing if your car is improving or not, you know, because then that’s a recipe for overtraining as we said.

**Gerry (00:23:37)**
Yes.

**Gerry (00:23:38)**
Very high impact.

**Gerry (00:23:39)**
Running is running’s tough.

**Gerry (00:23:40)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:23:41)**
People just dude, I’ve had countless people just come in and be like and they’re runners, marathon runners, whatever type of runner they are.

**Gerry (00:23:49)**
They come in and I tell them, like, how do you warm up for your run?

**Gerry (00:23:52)**
Just, no.

**Gerry (00:23:52)**
I just get up and start running.

**Gerry (00:23:54)**
And you can get away with that for a while.

**Gerry (00:23:55)**
But like I said, after years of running, your body’s gonna be, you know, telling you stuff.

**Gerry (00:24:00)**
It’s gonna be like, hey.

**Gerry (00:24:01)**
My knee hurts now.

**Gerry (00:24:02)**
Like, you’re not preparing your body for

**Ramy (00:24:04)**
Right.

**Gerry (00:24:05)**
A intense sport like running, like marathon running, things like that.

**Gerry (00:24:08)**
Because, again, running is high impact on your ankles, your neck, your your knees, your hips, your back.

**Gerry (00:24:14)**
And if you’re not preparing for that, just like any sport, you’re asking for your knees to start talking to you or your ankle to be like, hey.

**Gerry (00:24:22)**
Warm up a little bit or, you know, do something different as as opposed to just getting up and running.

**Gerry (00:24:27)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:24:27)**
And like we talked about before, like, in high school, you could get away with doing that because you’re young and you’re fresh and whatever.

**Gerry (00:24:33)**
But later on in life, late twenties, thirties, forties, you gotta be more prepped for these things.

**Gerry (00:24:38)**
And so building that base of and then working in those high intensity sessions, you know, is a task for me sometimes to to get people to do those because, again, most of the people I work with are all or nothing.

**Gerry (00:24:51)**
They’re they’re higher level people who wanna they’re competing in something.

**Gerry (00:24:54)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:24:55)**
And it’s hard for me to scale them back Yes.

**Gerry (00:24:57)**
And program it better.

**Gerry (00:24:58)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:24:58)**
At the same time, when I do it for them, they’re like, oh, my knee feels better.

**Gerry (00:25:01)**
On top of all the other PT stuff we’re doing.

**Ramy (00:25:03)**
Right.

**Gerry (00:25:04)**
But that’s a big piece of the puzzle is, effective programming.

**Gerry (00:25:08)**
So, you know, essentially, I wanna talk about, you know, the that the aerobic base of zone two recovery is what I was kinda getting at.

**Gerry (00:25:14)**
But and, again, proper programming is key for all of that.

**Gerry (00:25:19)**
Do you do any conditioning stuff yourself?

**Gerry (00:25:21)**
Running work?

**Ramy (00:25:23)**
I I don’t do any what I will do, I like the elliptical personally because combat sports is so there’s so much impact to the joints.

**Ramy (00:25:31)**
Mhmm.

**Ramy (00:25:31)**
So I like things that are low impact like the elliptical or swimming, swimming, stuff like that.

**Ramy (00:25:37)**
I find running to be it’s so funny.

**Ramy (00:25:39)**
Like, I’ll spar 12 rounds while I’m like, no.

**Ramy (00:25:41)**
Running is too too dangerous.

**Ramy (00:25:43)**
I find that, you know, when I run, I feel like even when I was 17, I felt I don’t know.

**Ramy (00:25:48)**
Maybe my body’s just not built for running.

**Ramy (00:25:50)**
Mhmm.

**Ramy (00:25:50)**
Maybe my running technique is poor.

**Ramy (00:25:52)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:25:52)**
But I’ve never done well, with running.

**Ramy (00:25:55)**
Jump rope, swim, the elliptical is my favorite because I can increase the intensity if I want without that steady impact.

**Ramy (00:26:03)**
I noticed a lot of my friends who are runners are always nursing some kinda injury.

**Ramy (00:26:08)**
Mhmm.

**Ramy (00:26:09)**
I’m sure they’re doing something correctly.

**Ramy (00:26:11)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:26:12)**
But I’m trying to limit the amount of wear and tear I put on my body.

**Ramy (00:26:16)**
And because combat sports so inherently can be brutal on the body, I try for my the activities I do outside of combat sports to actually be pretty easy.

**Ramy (00:26:25)**
Right?

**Ramy (00:26:26)**
I don’t said I don’t wanna do three I don’t wanna do combat sports and, you know, do hard runs, and then my body’s gonna Yeah.

**Ramy (00:26:34)**
Fizzle into nothing, you know, become nothing soon.

**Ramy (00:26:37)**
So, no.

**Ramy (00:26:38)**
My stuff outside of combat sports is very easy.

**Ramy (00:26:42)**
People will look at my, like, workout routine and be like, that’s it?

**Ramy (00:26:45)**
But I’m so invested in the combat sports.

**Ramy (00:26:48)**
I do so much sparring, drills, holding pads for people It’s

**Gerry (00:26:51)**
a lot.

**Gerry (00:26:51)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:26:52)**
Doing jiu jitsu, spar.

**Ramy (00:26:53)**
It does a lot.

**Ramy (00:26:54)**
It takes care of a lot of, you know, the the fitness aspect

**Gerry (00:26:58)**
for me.

**Gerry (00:26:58)**
So the other stuff, I think longevity.

**Ramy (00:26:58)**
I stretch a lot.

**Ramy (00:26:59)**
I do a lot of elliptical

**Gerry (00:27:01)**
Yes.

**Ramy (00:27:02)**
Things just to help me recover and also build my aerobic base.

**Ramy (00:27:07)**
Because the stuff I do is not slow and steady aerobic activity.

**Ramy (00:27:11)**
So I do think it’s important for me to do something like that, and that’s where I used to like those.

**Gerry (00:27:15)**
And the elliptical stuff, like you said, is very you can build your cardio with just the bike or the elliptical.

**Gerry (00:27:20)**
And, again, when I tell my runners, like, let’s I don’t say stop running.

**Gerry (00:27:23)**
Let’s kinda lower the volume on the running.

**Gerry (00:27:25)**
Right.

**Gerry (00:27:25)**
Let’s sub in some elliptical or or bike work or whatever.

**Gerry (00:27:28)**
They go crazy.

**Gerry (00:27:29)**
I what

**Ramy (00:27:30)**
Do you think there’s some addiction to the running itself?

**Ramy (00:27:32)**
Like, what do you think it is?

**Ramy (00:27:34)**
I’ve never enjoyed running like that.

**Ramy (00:27:36)**
So maybe

**Gerry (00:27:37)**
that’s the idea.

**Gerry (00:27:37)**
There’s a few times where I’ve enjoyed the run a run, a long run.

**Gerry (00:27:41)**
Right.

**Gerry (00:27:42)**
But I I can’t get addicted to it.

**Gerry (00:27:43)**
But I I can kinda see why.

**Gerry (00:27:44)**
And, again, all those natural endorphins get released in the in the brain or whatever and all that good stuff.

**Gerry (00:27:48)**
And it it is a runner’s high.

**Gerry (00:27:50)**
It’s a real thing.

**Ramy (00:27:50)**
Sure.

**Gerry (00:27:51)**
So they’re addicted to that.

**Gerry (00:27:52)**
Right.

**Gerry (00:27:53)**
Same chemicals get released with all these other things as well.

**Gerry (00:27:55)**
So, like, yeah.

**Ramy (00:27:56)**
But then why not the elliptical if you get the same amount of fat?

**Ramy (00:27:59)**
Like, what do you think their

**Gerry (00:28:00)**
Oh, that’s a good question is?

**Gerry (00:28:02)**
I think well, I think a lot of people are just stuck in their ways too, and they they think doing something else is gonna limit their main sport, which for them, it’s running.

**Gerry (00:28:10)**
Yes.

**Gerry (00:28:11)**
And, again, runners are notorious for us as physical therapists to be like they just wanna run.

**Gerry (00:28:16)**
Just run.

**Gerry (00:28:18)**
No resistance training with it.

**Gerry (00:28:20)**
No warm up with the running.

**Gerry (00:28:22)**
They are notorious for just feeling like activity.

**Gerry (00:28:24)**
I just wanna run.

**Ramy (00:28:24)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:28:25)**
Why can’t I just run?

**Gerry (00:28:26)**
Like, when I try to, like, fix their well, runners specifically, but I’m picking on runners.

**Gerry (00:28:31)**
But Yeah.

**Gerry (00:28:31)**
I see this in a lot of swim.

**Gerry (00:28:32)**
They just they don’t want me picking apart their training.

**Gerry (00:28:35)**
They’re like, I just wanna keep running.

**Gerry (00:28:37)**
And I’m like, we can.

**Gerry (00:28:38)**
If you wanna keep running, we have to adjust things.

**Ramy (00:28:40)**
No.

**Ramy (00:28:41)**
I get it.

**Ramy (00:28:41)**
I get it.

**Ramy (00:28:42)**
And to be to be candid, like, I can relate not in the running sense, but I can relate in that.

**Ramy (00:28:46)**
I’m sure there’s so much more I could be doing, but I love combat sports so much, so I put a lot of my focus on this.

**Ramy (00:28:52)**
So I relate to them.

**Ramy (00:28:54)**
I get it.

**Ramy (00:28:54)**
When you find an activity that you enjoy, where it’s not a chore to do it, the stuff, even when I go to the gym to use elliptical and stretch, it’s not with the same enthusiasm Right.

**Ramy (00:29:04)**
As when going to spar.

**Gerry (00:29:05)**
That’s exactly it.

**Ramy (00:29:06)**
So I get it.

**Ramy (00:29:07)**
I I understand that.

**Ramy (00:29:08)**
They’re looking for enjoyment.

**Ramy (00:29:09)**
They love it.

**Gerry (00:29:10)**
Same thing.

**Ramy (00:29:11)**
So I I do get it.

**Ramy (00:29:12)**
I do relate.

**Gerry (00:29:14)**
Combat sports to you running is to them, same thing, and they’re like, I can’t.

**Gerry (00:29:17)**
Mhmm.

**Ramy (00:29:17)**
I don’t

**Gerry (00:29:17)**
wanna do anything else.

**Gerry (00:29:18)**
Like, this is what I wanna do.

**Gerry (00:29:19)**
And then blending in other things is gonna make me, they think, a worse athlete in their sport when it it could not be different.

**Gerry (00:29:26)**
I mean, further from the truth, honestly, because blending in those things and, like, for you, adding in some resistance training, some more mobility work Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:29:34)**
Will do you wonders.

**Gerry (00:29:35)**
Absolutely.

**Gerry (00:29:35)**
And I know, you know, pressed for time and you’re super busy now, but, like, you

**Ramy (00:29:39)**
need to You’re right.

**Gerry (00:29:40)**
But you don’t have to be doing, you know you know, four sessions of lifting every week.

**Gerry (00:29:45)**
Right.

**Gerry (00:29:45)**
One or two is fine.

**Gerry (00:29:46)**
Right.

**Gerry (00:29:46)**
Forty five minutes, you know, light, resistance trainings will do you wonders.

**Gerry (00:29:50)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:29:51)**
Building some muscle to help protect your joints, all that stuff.

**Gerry (00:29:55)**
Mobility work.

**Gerry (00:29:55)**
Let’s say, I don’t know, your hips are stiff or something.

**Gerry (00:29:57)**
Right.

**Gerry (00:29:58)**
Working on those things as well.

**Gerry (00:30:00)**
And I can help you out with that too.

**Ramy (00:30:01)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:30:01)**
No.

**Ramy (00:30:01)**
I know you can.

**Ramy (00:30:02)**
You’re very knowledgeable.

**Ramy (00:30:03)**
I know you can.

**Gerry (00:30:05)**
But let’s let’s bring out that gram that somebody sent me that I wanna pick on her.

**Gerry (00:30:10)**
I’m not gonna call her out, but she knows who she is.

**Gerry (00:30:15)**
So I wanna get your thoughts first.

**Gerry (00:30:16)**
So this is someone who came to me with low back pain and knee pain.

**Ramy (00:30:22)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:30:22)**
And she does Muay Thai.

**Gerry (00:30:24)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:30:24)**
Can you see that far?

**Ramy (00:30:25)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:30:25)**
I think so.

**Ramy (00:30:26)**
Oh.

**Ramy (00:30:26)**
Glasses.

**Ramy (00:30:27)**
No.

**Ramy (00:30:27)**
I can’t pull it.

**Gerry (00:30:27)**
If not, I have it on my laptop.

**Gerry (00:30:29)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:30:30)**
So she does Muay Thai.

**Gerry (00:30:31)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:30:31)**
Avid Muay Thai athlete.

**Gerry (00:30:33)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:30:33)**
She does running.

**Gerry (00:30:35)**
She’s trying to run a marathon soon.

**Ramy (00:30:37)**
Wow.

**Ramy (00:30:37)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:30:37)**
And she does weightlifting.

**Gerry (00:30:38)**
So her main goal is the Chicago marathon in October.

**Gerry (00:30:43)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:30:44)**
That’s her main goal.

**Ramy (00:30:45)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:30:46)**
So I told her we need to structure this to focus on to optimize your body for the marathon in October.

**Gerry (00:30:54)**
But so Monday, this is her training program.

**Gerry (00:30:57)**
This is what she sent me.

**Ramy (00:30:59)**
Okay.

**Ramy (00:30:59)**
I

**Gerry (00:30:59)**
already knew she was doing too much.

**Ramy (00:31:00)**
This is what she’s doing as of now?

**Gerry (00:31:02)**
Well, not anymore because I just I changed it this week.

**Gerry (00:31:04)**
But, yes, this is what she first emailed me after our physical therapy evaluation.

**Gerry (00:31:09)**
So she on Monday, she does a full body strength work.

**Gerry (00:31:12)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:31:13)**
I think she said it’s more like heavy weights.

**Gerry (00:31:15)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:31:16)**
With her strength and conditioning coach, whoever it is.

**Gerry (00:31:18)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:31:19)**
Tuesday is a short run, quote, up to eight miles.

**Gerry (00:31:21)**
Damn.

**Ramy (00:31:21)**
That’s a short run.

**Gerry (00:31:22)**
That’s what I’m saying.

**Gerry (00:31:23)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:31:23)**
I know.

**Gerry (00:31:24)**
Wednesday is a tempo run

**Ramy (00:31:26)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:31:26)**
Which are more like intervals at zone four, which is very high intensity.

**Gerry (00:31:30)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:31:31)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:31:32)**
Thursday is, again, more weightlifting in the morning, and then evening, pretty intense Muay Thai stuff.

**Gerry (00:31:39)**
Friday, she does another strength work resistance training.

**Gerry (00:31:44)**
And then Saturday, she does Muay Thai in the morning, and then she spars later, I believe it says.

**Gerry (00:31:51)**
Anyway, heavy Muay Thai though.

**Gerry (00:31:53)**
With some, like, weight weight work at the end, I believe.

**Gerry (00:31:56)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:31:56)**
It’s a safe for sparring from so she does wow.

**Gerry (00:31:58)**
She spar yes.

**Gerry (00:31:59)**
Same knee.

**Gerry (00:32:00)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:32:00)**
Your your expression is already telling me what you think of it as well.

**Gerry (00:32:02)**
And then Sunday, she runs 13 miles.

**Ramy (00:32:05)**
Oh my god.

**Ramy (00:32:06)**
So she comes to

**Gerry (00:32:07)**
me again with knee pain and back pain.

**Gerry (00:32:10)**
And this is an example of somebody I see.

**Gerry (00:32:13)**
I’ve I’ve had, like, probably four of these people these these past two weeks, but she’s fresh in my mind right now.

**Gerry (00:32:18)**
Wow.

**Gerry (00:32:19)**
So she again, knee pain and back pain.

**Gerry (00:32:22)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:32:23)**
And this is what revamp well, first, tell me your thoughts on that.

**Gerry (00:32:26)**
What do you what do you think?

**Gerry (00:32:27)**
Is that too much?

**Ramy (00:32:28)**
It’s it’s it’s far too much.

**Ramy (00:32:30)**
And her body is gonna I mean, no wonder she came to you

**Gerry (00:32:34)**
And it is telling her.

**Ramy (00:32:35)**
Yep.

**Ramy (00:32:35)**
Her body is telling her that this is far too much.

**Ramy (00:32:38)**
And I also blame for this the exaggerated training routines that we are told that a lot of pro athletes do.

**Ramy (00:32:47)**
Because I know a lot of the high level fighters, they might say they do x, y, and z, but they do not.

**Ramy (00:32:53)**
They train hard.

**Ramy (00:32:54)**
Don’t get me wrong.

**Ramy (00:32:55)**
But no train at this level seven days a week.

**Ramy (00:32:58)**
There’s just no Right.

**Ramy (00:32:59)**
Possible way Right.

**Ramy (00:33:00)**
That this is sustained.

**Gerry (00:33:01)**
And she’s got a job.

**Gerry (00:33:02)**
She’s got other things going on.

**Gerry (00:33:03)**
Like, I was telling her, I think, this morning, actually, when I saw her, yes.

**Gerry (00:33:07)**
Athletes can’t probably they if anybody could do it, it’s them because that’s their

**Ramy (00:33:11)**
job.

**Ramy (00:33:11)**
Right.

**Gerry (00:33:12)**
That’s all they do is train She has a full time job.

**Gerry (00:33:14)**
But she has a full time job.

**Ramy (00:33:15)**
Oh, man.

**Gerry (00:33:16)**
Other things are going on.

**Gerry (00:33:17)**
It’s not her job to to be this elite level athlete.

**Gerry (00:33:20)**
I’m not saying she isn’t.

**Gerry (00:33:21)**
She’s a great athlete.

**Gerry (00:33:21)**
Sure.

**Gerry (00:33:22)**
Sure.

**Gerry (00:33:22)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:33:22)**
She’s in great shape, all that good stuff.

**Gerry (00:33:25)**
But, you know, you’re doing that routine on top of having a full time job, all these other things going on.

**Gerry (00:33:30)**
It’s not her job to be LeBron James who just plays basketball, weight lifts, and then goes home, recovers forever.

**Gerry (00:33:36)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:33:37)**
Because that’s his job.

**Gerry (00:33:38)**
Exactly.

**Gerry (00:33:39)**
At the same time, can we still build her to be a great athlete?

**Gerry (00:33:42)**
Of course.

**Gerry (00:33:42)**
And that’s what I’m doing with her.

**Gerry (00:33:43)**
So if we go to the next my training program that I completely revamped for her Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:33:48)**
I think the first sentence is just kinda my email to her.

**Gerry (00:33:51)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:33:51)**
So I think I just said I revised it because her goal is the marathon in October.

**Gerry (00:33:55)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:33:55)**
The Chicago marathon in October.

**Gerry (00:33:57)**
That was her main goal.

**Gerry (00:33:58)**
T is we need to get our patient’s main goals.

**Gerry (00:34:01)**
So that’s her goal.

**Gerry (00:34:01)**
Her goal is not to be a fighter right now.

**Ramy (00:34:03)**
That you mentioned that.

**Ramy (00:34:04)**
That’s really because she was doing way too much hard Muay Thai training Thanks.

**Gerry (00:34:07)**
For a

**Ramy (00:34:07)**
goal having a And I

**Gerry (00:34:09)**
think intuitively, sometimes people know these things.

**Gerry (00:34:11)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:34:11)**
And she’s like and that’s why she came to me.

**Gerry (00:34:13)**
She needs somebody else to kinda, like Yes.

**Gerry (00:34:15)**
Be that voice of reason.

**Gerry (00:34:16)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:34:16)**
And, again, when she first came to me, she was saying she’s exhausted all the time.

**Gerry (00:34:20)**
And, again, she’s in great shape Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:34:21)**
But she’s tired all the time.

**Gerry (00:34:22)**
She’s got her her knees talking to her to her now.

**Gerry (00:34:25)**
Her back’s like, oh, it doesn’t feel great.

**Gerry (00:34:28)**
And I was getting How old is

**Ramy (00:34:29)**
she like?

**Ramy (00:34:30)**
What’s her age?

**Gerry (00:34:31)**
Early thirties Okay.

**Gerry (00:34:32)**
I believe.

**Gerry (00:34:32)**
Still young.

**Gerry (00:34:33)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:34:34)**
So I revamped her Monday.

**Gerry (00:34:36)**
So I’m trying to pull up.

**Gerry (00:34:38)**
But, yes, so anyways, her Monday is full body strength.

**Gerry (00:34:41)**
It’s more resistance training.

**Gerry (00:34:43)**
I told her to make it more lighter weights Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:34:45)**
And blend in the rehab stuff I’m doing with her in the clinic.

**Ramy (00:34:48)**
Oh, very nice.

**Gerry (00:34:49)**
So I I gave her stuff for her her back and her knee.

**Gerry (00:34:51)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:34:51)**
We’re blending that into her training now, her strength training that day and Monday.

**Gerry (00:34:54)**
Wonderful.

**Gerry (00:34:55)**
Lighter resistance training, blend in the PT work that I give her.

**Gerry (00:34:58)**
Alright.

**Gerry (00:34:59)**
And I’ll do that for her.

**Gerry (00:35:00)**
We’re doing that together.

**Gerry (00:35:01)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:35:01)**
K.

**Gerry (00:35:01)**
A short run.

**Gerry (00:35:03)**
And, again, this is more of a zone two run.

**Gerry (00:35:06)**
And is that a short run?

**Gerry (00:35:07)**
To her, maybe it is.

**Gerry (00:35:07)**
To me, that that’ll run me.

**Ramy (00:35:09)**
Right.

**Gerry (00:35:10)**
That’s more zone two, aerobic pacing, smooth, efficient stride, all that stuff I talked to her.

**Gerry (00:35:15)**
That’s Tuesday.

**Ramy (00:35:16)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:35:16)**
I’m also giving her a warm up for her run, which she doesn’t do that.

**Gerry (00:35:19)**
She

**Ramy (00:35:20)**
wasn’t doing it before.

**Gerry (00:35:21)**
Okay?

**Gerry (00:35:21)**
They never do that.

**Gerry (00:35:22)**
So I I gave her her warm up.

**Gerry (00:35:25)**
I think I gave it to her today, I believe.

**Gerry (00:35:27)**
Yes.

**Ramy (00:35:27)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:35:27)**
Anyway, she’s a a new person, but this is something that people can learn from.

**Gerry (00:35:31)**
So warm zone two run.

**Gerry (00:35:34)**
That’s Tuesday.

**Gerry (00:35:35)**
Wednesday, a true tempo run.

**Gerry (00:35:36)**
It’s more of another run day.

**Gerry (00:35:36)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:35:36)**
It seems like a lot, but I put in the warm up.

**Gerry (00:35:38)**
Run day.

**Ramy (00:35:39)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:35:39)**
It seems like a lot, but I put in the warm up is right there.

**Ramy (00:35:42)**
Nice.

**Gerry (00:35:43)**
And then this is more of a continuous higher intensity run.

**Ramy (00:35:46)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:35:46)**
And then cool down, all that good stuff.

**Gerry (00:35:48)**
I see.

**Gerry (00:35:49)**
She could still tolerate this.

**Gerry (00:35:50)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:35:51)**
If she can’t, honestly, we’re gonna adjust it again.

**Gerry (00:35:53)**
Oh.

**Gerry (00:35:53)**
This is my template to her right now.

**Ramy (00:35:55)**
Right.

**Ramy (00:35:55)**
I’m a

**Gerry (00:35:55)**
see how she progresses with this in two, three weeks.

**Gerry (00:35:57)**
If it’s still too much, we’re gonna scale back a little bit more, and that’s okay too.

**Gerry (00:36:01)**
People don’t like to hear that.

**Gerry (00:36:03)**
They go crazy, but we’re not doing nothing.

**Gerry (00:36:05)**
That’s the worst thing you can be doing for an injury.

**Gerry (00:36:07)**
We’re still training Right.

**Gerry (00:36:09)**
But we’re doing it in a smart way.

**Ramy (00:36:10)**
Makes sense.

**Gerry (00:36:11)**
Thursday is her combined days.

**Gerry (00:36:14)**
This is her Muay Thai and her, strength work.

**Gerry (00:36:16)**
So I told them in the morning, if you if you have to do it, two a days Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:36:21)**
Let’s do it this way.

**Gerry (00:36:22)**
Let’s do morning light resistance training with the rehab stuff I I gave her.

**Gerry (00:36:26)**
In the evening, just Muay Thai pad work, light.

**Gerry (00:36:30)**
No sparring, nothing like that.

**Gerry (00:36:32)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:36:33)**
I put technique where it’s low work, you know, all this stuff.

**Gerry (00:36:35)**
Very good.

**Gerry (00:36:36)**
Just do that because, again, that’s not her goal.

**Gerry (00:36:38)**
Her goal is not to fight and compete right now.

**Gerry (00:36:40)**
Her goal is the marathon.

**Gerry (00:36:41)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:36:41)**
So we’re gonna treat it as such.

**Gerry (00:36:43)**
Absolutely.

**Gerry (00:36:43)**
Friday, she went crazy with this, but she emailed me back like, oh, this is interesting.

**Gerry (00:36:48)**
Friday’s a rest day.

**Ramy (00:36:49)**
Rest day.

**Ramy (00:36:49)**
All caps.

**Ramy (00:36:49)**
So you’re really

**Gerry (00:36:50)**
emphasizing.

**Gerry (00:36:51)**
You wanna rest.

**Gerry (00:36:51)**
I even told her because some people do not like complete rest.

**Gerry (00:36:53)**
If you wanna go for a walk, do some mobility drills that I I give her.

**Gerry (00:36:57)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:36:57)**
That’s fine too.

**Ramy (00:36:58)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:36:58)**
But just chill.

**Gerry (00:37:00)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:37:00)**
Let your body, your nervous system recover.

**Gerry (00:37:02)**
That’s okay.

**Gerry (00:37:03)**
It’s better for you in the long run.

**Gerry (00:37:04)**
Right.

**Gerry (00:37:04)**
Saturday is the light recovery day.

**Gerry (00:37:08)**
Again, light run, three to four miles, and then she wants to do again I think it was two days again.

**Gerry (00:37:15)**
So, like, a a light run-in the morning and, again, light work at night.

**Gerry (00:37:18)**
That’s it.

**Gerry (00:37:20)**
Stop right there.

**Ramy (00:37:20)**
Much better.

**Gerry (00:37:21)**
And I told her because she goes hard in Muay Thai, she goes hard with running.

**Gerry (00:37:24)**
It’s a lot of impact on her knee.

**Gerry (00:37:26)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:37:26)**
All that footwork in Muay Thai, jumping around, hopping around, all that stuff, kicking people.

**Gerry (00:37:31)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:37:31)**
And then running on top of that, like, with the high intensity she was doing.

**Ramy (00:37:34)**
Oh, way too much.

**Gerry (00:37:35)**
Her knee pain is gonna get worse.

**Gerry (00:37:36)**
And that’s Absolutely.

**Gerry (00:37:37)**
So we’re gonna scale that back.

**Gerry (00:37:39)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:37:39)**
Add in the rehab stuff like I said.

**Gerry (00:37:41)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:37:41)**
Sunday, I think we tweak this today, but this is another long run.

**Gerry (00:37:46)**
But, again, it’s a it’s a warm up and a long run at a nice pace.

**Gerry (00:37:49)**
And then, there’s another recovery day, I think, in there too.

**Gerry (00:37:52)**
But, anyways, we might revamp that.

**Ramy (00:37:54)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:37:55)**
But, anyways, I completely redid it for her.

**Gerry (00:37:57)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:37:58)**
And this is an example of, like, when I work with somebody, we completely redo your training.

**Gerry (00:38:03)**
And, you know, at first, people don’t wanna be well, she was kinda open to it.

**Gerry (00:38:09)**
I’m not saying she’s not.

**Gerry (00:38:09)**
But, like, I could sense the resistance at first.

**Ramy (00:38:12)**
Sure.

**Ramy (00:38:12)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:38:13)**
She’s like, well, I’m so used to train she told me she’s never had a rest day ever.

**Gerry (00:38:16)**
Like, she trains seven days a week.

**Gerry (00:38:17)**
Oh, wow.

**Gerry (00:38:18)**
She loves Muay Thai.

**Gerry (00:38:19)**
All that yeah.

**Gerry (00:38:20)**
It’s a lot.

**Gerry (00:38:21)**
Even back there, it’s like, yeah.

**Gerry (00:38:22)**
She’s and, again, she’s in great shape.

**Gerry (00:38:23)**
She’s a great athlete Uh-huh.

**Gerry (00:38:25)**
But her body’s starting to tell her stuff.

**Ramy (00:38:27)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:38:28)**
And even, like, when she told me, like I don’t wanna say she was embarrassed about it because I asked her at the end of our session, like, what’s your training like?

**Gerry (00:38:36)**
And she was like, you’re gonna say I’m doing too much.

**Gerry (00:38:37)**
I’m like, yeah.

**Gerry (00:38:38)**
I probably am.

**Ramy (00:38:38)**
She already knew that.

**Ramy (00:38:39)**
She knew that.

**Gerry (00:38:40)**
People already know these things.

**Gerry (00:38:41)**
Uh-huh.

**Gerry (00:38:42)**
And, again, it’s it’s fine for me to be that voice of reason to be like, oh, well, this is what we have to do.

**Gerry (00:38:46)**
And I think you know that, but I’m giving you the plan.

**Gerry (00:38:49)**
Let’s stick to the plan.

**Ramy (00:38:50)**
Yes.

**Gerry (00:38:50)**
We’ll adjust along the way.

**Ramy (00:38:52)**
Yes.

**Ramy (00:38:53)**
Oh, yeah.

**Ramy (00:38:53)**
Much better.

**Ramy (00:38:54)**
Oh, man.

**Ramy (00:38:54)**
And and I really like that you limited or took away sparring because that’s where she is gonna have an injury, and she’s gonna be unable to run the marathon.

**Ramy (00:39:03)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:39:03)**
I mean, if your goal if she checks a kick incorrectly or her knee collides with somebody else, then that’s it.

**Ramy (00:39:10)**
There’s no marathon in October.

**Ramy (00:39:12)**
So Exactly.

**Ramy (00:39:13)**
Yep.

**Ramy (00:39:14)**
I mean, she could get back to sparring after.

**Ramy (00:39:16)**
That’s the thing.

**Ramy (00:39:16)**
People forget that you have your whole life to pursue this.

**Ramy (00:39:20)**
One of the coaches at my, PSC, coach Jaime, he’s he’s he still spars.

**Ramy (00:39:25)**
He still he’ll train I mean, he has kept up with combat sports.

**Ramy (00:39:29)**
I mean, he was competing in the late eighties as a high level competitor in both boxing and kickboxing.

**Ramy (00:39:36)**
Now he’s in his sixties.

**Ramy (00:39:38)**
He can spar with people who are 20 and get the better of them.

**Gerry (00:39:40)**
Wow.

**Ramy (00:39:41)**
But, you know, he trains consistently, but that to me, that’s the goal.

**Ramy (00:39:45)**
I wanna be 60 and still able to spar, to train because I love this, and I’m sure she loves this.

**Ramy (00:39:50)**
She loves it.

**Gerry (00:39:50)**
She imagine And I love that they love it too.

**Ramy (00:39:52)**
Imagine how upset she would be if in ten, twenty, she could not do this at all physically.

**Ramy (00:39:58)**
She would be devastated, I imagine, if she couldn’t do Muay Thai anymore.

**Ramy (00:40:01)**
Right?

**Ramy (00:40:02)**
But the training she was doing before was setting her up for a path where you will have a finite ending to your Muay Thai journey.

**Ramy (00:40:09)**
You’re gonna be so injured, so battered and bruised, and it it just won’t be an option anymore.

**Ramy (00:40:15)**
So I think you actually saved her from Herself?

**Ramy (00:40:20)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:40:20)**
From ending her Muay Thai career, you know, her Muay Thai journey.

**Ramy (00:40:24)**
Right?

**Ramy (00:40:24)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:40:25)**
She loves it.

**Ramy (00:40:25)**
Yeah.

**Ramy (00:40:25)**
Early, if it’s something she enjoyed.

**Ramy (00:40:27)**
If that’s taken out of your life, I mean, I see I see students, I have a student, Aaron, who suffered from a knee injury.

**Ramy (00:40:33)**
He’s still able to do some boxing, but he can’t do kickboxing, can’t do jiu jitsu.

**Ramy (00:40:36)**
And you see how that affects them mentally.

**Ramy (00:40:38)**
Like, it’s upsetting to to be, to not be able to do the things that you truly enjoy.

**Ramy (00:40:44)**
And, yeah, I’m really glad she spoke to you because this was she had a horrible horrible ending coming her way if she would have stayed with this Yep.

**Ramy (00:40:53)**
Training routine.

**Ramy (00:40:53)**
That was way too much.

**Gerry (00:40:54)**
She did catch it early.

**Gerry (00:40:55)**
I I told her today she’s doing better than she thinks she’s doing.

**Gerry (00:40:58)**
And I have any aches and pains.

**Gerry (00:40:59)**
People think, like, oh, man.

**Gerry (00:41:00)**
I’m just I’m broken.

**Gerry (00:41:01)**
I’m damaged.

**Gerry (00:41:01)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:41:02)**
This This is gonna ruin me.

**Gerry (00:41:03)**
My whole life is gonna linger forever.

**Ramy (00:41:05)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:41:06)**
But, she caught it early.

**Gerry (00:41:07)**
She’s in a good place.

**Gerry (00:41:08)**
She’s got good her pain levels aren’t that crazy.

**Gerry (00:41:12)**
One more thing I wanna mention about her.

**Gerry (00:41:14)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:41:14)**
I can’t say her name because of Her Social Security number.

**Gerry (00:41:17)**
Yes.

**Gerry (00:41:17)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:41:18)**
She said I could, but just for HIPAA privacy, I’m not gonna say anything.

**Gerry (00:41:21)**
But she knows I’m talking about her.

**Gerry (00:41:24)**
But one other thing to and we’ll kinda wrap on this is she this is my rant again, Rami.

**Gerry (00:41:31)**
Sorry.

**Gerry (00:41:31)**
But No.

**Gerry (00:41:32)**
I’m not.

**Gerry (00:41:32)**
Going a PT

**Ramy (00:41:33)**
rant here again.

**Gerry (00:41:34)**
Here, man.

**Gerry (00:41:34)**
So she was seeing another PT before me, and they did not

**Ramy (00:41:38)**
She betrayed you.

**Ramy (00:41:39)**
No.

**Ramy (00:41:39)**
This is before she started working with you, though?

**Ramy (00:41:41)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:41:41)**
Before.

**Gerry (00:41:42)**
She’s seen something before me.

**Gerry (00:41:42)**
Okay.

**Ramy (00:41:43)**
Because you don’t allow that.

**Ramy (00:41:44)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:41:44)**
Yes.

**Gerry (00:41:44)**
Yes.

**Ramy (00:41:46)**
But she

**Gerry (00:41:46)**
came to me because, I mean, they weren’t doing much with her.

**Ramy (00:41:49)**
They What was their approach to to to her?

**Ramy (00:41:51)**
Glad you asked.

**Gerry (00:41:52)**
Mommy,

**Ramy (00:41:52)**
go in on it now.

**Gerry (00:41:53)**
I’m glad you asked.

**Gerry (00:41:54)**
Alright.

**Gerry (00:41:55)**
So she told me the whole time Uh-huh.

**Gerry (00:41:57)**
Oh, this makes my skin crawl, I think, honestly.

**Gerry (00:42:02)**
Because when I someone we’ll come back to that in a second.

**Gerry (00:42:04)**
But when I first saw her, she was like, oh, this is completely different.

**Gerry (00:42:06)**
And I was like, well, what is what did your other PT do with you?

**Gerry (00:42:09)**
And she was like, oh, he just I was on the table the whole time for forty five minutes to an hour.

**Gerry (00:42:15)**
He would do I think it was heat pack or something, a heat pack on her low back, some massage on her low back, and then do the e stim on her low back.

**Gerry (00:42:23)**
And that was physical therapy.

**Ramy (00:42:24)**
That was it.

**Gerry (00:42:25)**
That was it.

**Ramy (00:42:26)**
Oh, man.

**Ramy (00:42:26)**
I could do that.

**Ramy (00:42:27)**
I should start my physical

**Gerry (00:42:28)**
therapy business.

**Gerry (00:42:31)**
I yeah.

**Gerry (00:42:32)**
I don’t know why that’s I I couldn’t believe it.

**Ramy (00:42:35)**
Now she had several problem areas, though, that so for example, her knee

**Gerry (00:42:39)**
For her back.

**Gerry (00:42:39)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:42:39)**
I think her knee was just starting to act up recently, but she was seeing him for her back.

**Gerry (00:42:43)**
Okay.

**Ramy (00:42:43)**
Got

**Gerry (00:42:43)**
it.

**Gerry (00:42:44)**
But that was what he was doing.

**Gerry (00:42:46)**
And her initial email, like, her initial, reach out to me Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:42:51)**
Was like, I don’t want just a massage.

**Gerry (00:42:54)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:42:54)**
I’m like, you shouldn’t just be getting a massage.

**Gerry (00:42:57)**
Like, what is this?

**Gerry (00:42:57)**
Where are you?

**Gerry (00:42:58)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:42:59)**
Please come in.

**Gerry (00:43:00)**
And, again, like, I saw her this morning, and I could tell.

**Gerry (00:43:05)**
She’s like, this is a workout.

**Gerry (00:43:06)**
I’m like, yeah.

**Gerry (00:43:07)**
It is.

**Gerry (00:43:07)**
It’s a safe workout for your pain and injury.

**Gerry (00:43:10)**
And she’ll get stronger, she’ll get better, and her pain will decrease, and that is real physical therapy.

**Gerry (00:43:15)**
So

**Ramy (00:43:16)**
I’m glad she found you, man.

**Ramy (00:43:17)**
Honestly, like, that that sounds horrible.

**Ramy (00:43:20)**
It sounds negligent on the part of the other physical therapist she was working with.

**Ramy (00:43:24)**
Like, that’s crazy.

**Ramy (00:43:26)**
And then also, as a athlete, when I if I go to a physical therapist, I don’t know what the training what that should look like.

**Gerry (00:43:33)**
Right.

**Ramy (00:43:33)**
So you’re almost at their mercy.

**Ramy (00:43:35)**
Right?

**Ramy (00:43:35)**
Like, when you take your car to a mechanic and like, hey.

**Ramy (00:43:37)**
You know, you need this, this.

**Ramy (00:43:38)**
They’re like, okay.

**Ramy (00:43:39)**
Well, I don’t know.

**Ramy (00:43:39)**
This guy could be scamming me.

**Ramy (00:43:41)**
Right?

**Ramy (00:43:41)**
Yep.

**Ramy (00:43:41)**
And in your field, it seems like there are people who take advantage of the athlete’s lack of you know, we didn’t study this.

**Ramy (00:43:48)**
We didn’t go to school for this like you did.

**Ramy (00:43:50)**
So we trust the expert, and oftentimes, that expert can mislead people and take advantage of people.

**Ramy (00:43:56)**
So Right.

**Ramy (00:43:57)**
That’s a shame, to be honest.

**Ramy (00:43:58)**
I don’t

**Gerry (00:43:59)**
know how long she was seeing them, but it was too long.

**Gerry (00:44:01)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:44:02)**
And a lot of people still do that whether they’re PTs or chiros, whoever it is.

**Gerry (00:44:06)**
They’re just that’s all they’re doing.

**Gerry (00:44:08)**
Heat pack, massage, some weird scrapey thing, some sort of weird pistol thing that shocks them.

**Gerry (00:44:16)**
I don’t know.

**Gerry (00:44:16)**
Stuff like that.

**Ramy (00:44:17)**
I have a question.

**Gerry (00:44:18)**
Uh-oh.

**Gerry (00:44:19)**
Is

**Ramy (00:44:19)**
any chiropractor legit?

**Ramy (00:44:21)**
Are

**Gerry (00:44:22)**
they all

**Ramy (00:44:23)**
just pieces of okay.

**Gerry (00:44:25)**
No.

**Gerry (00:44:25)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:44:26)**
Some of them can be Just like any field, man.

**Gerry (00:44:27)**
Like, any there’s good chiros and there’s bad because there’s good PTs and there’s bad PTs.

**Gerry (00:44:31)**
I just gave an example of bad I don’t say bad PT, but I’m not optimal PT for this particular patient.

**Gerry (00:44:36)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:44:37)**
Let’s say it that way.

**Gerry (00:44:39)**
It’s not my approach at all.

**Gerry (00:44:40)**
But, anyways, just like any field, there’s

**Ramy (00:44:43)**
There are some that you would say are legitimate.

**Ramy (00:44:45)**
Okay.

**Gerry (00:44:45)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:44:46)**
Good and bad.

**Ramy (00:44:47)**
So,

**Gerry (00:44:48)**
and I’m friends with them.

**Gerry (00:44:49)**
But Okay.

**Gerry (00:44:49)**
Cool.

**Gerry (00:44:51)**
Yeah, man.

**Gerry (00:44:52)**
You wanna shout anybody out?

**Gerry (00:44:54)**
I know you like doing your shout outs.

**Ramy (00:44:55)**
Of course.

**Ramy (00:44:56)**
I’d love to.

**Ramy (00:44:56)**
Thanks for giving me the opportunity.

**Ramy (00:44:57)**
No.

**Ramy (00:44:58)**
It’s it’s the same people as always, man.

**Ramy (00:44:59)**
Thank you to everyone at Phoenix Sports Empire, everyone who’s a part of our gym, coaches, coach Jaime, coach Brooks, coach Enrique.

**Gerry (00:45:08)**
Is Cameron Rami.

**Ramy (00:45:09)**
Oh, I’m here.

**Ramy (00:45:09)**
Thank you.

**Ramy (00:45:10)**
Hello, Cameron.

**Ramy (00:45:11)**
Thank you to Asha so much.

**Ramy (00:45:14)**
Couldn’t run the gym without Asha, and one of the co owners of of PSC.

**Ramy (00:45:20)**
And, yeah, just our students and, for keeping us alive and thriving.

**Ramy (00:45:24)**
Like I was telling you at the beginning, our classes have been fully booked, many of them.

**Ramy (00:45:28)**
Nice.

**Ramy (00:45:29)**
It’s a great problem to have.

**Ramy (00:45:30)**
So, yeah, thank you to to everybody at at PSC.

**Ramy (00:45:33)**
You guys mean so much to me, and I’m grateful that you’re enjoying our new spot and keeping up with our training.

**Ramy (00:45:40)**
So thank you.

**Gerry (00:45:41)**
And I think Brian was saying he wants us to drop by at your gym.

**Ramy (00:45:43)**
I’m gonna drop by.

**Gerry (00:45:44)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:45:44)**
I’m glad that

**Ramy (00:45:44)**
you’re here.

**Ramy (00:45:45)**
Just to hang out anytime.

**Ramy (00:45:47)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:45:47)**
Anytime.

**Gerry (00:45:47)**
Busy.

**Gerry (00:45:48)**
Mhmm.

**Gerry (00:45:48)**
Get some training in for sure.

**Gerry (00:45:51)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:45:51)**
Thanks for coming on.

**Ramy (00:45:52)**
Thank you for having me.

**Gerry (00:45:53)**
If you wanna work with me online or in person, we’re we’re both in Naperville.

**Gerry (00:45:57)**
So, all my contact stuff is in the YouTube description.

**Gerry (00:46:02)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:46:02)**
If you wanna message me and work with me online as well, Rami before the podcast, I work with people online as well, so you can send me a DM via Instagram.

**Gerry (00:46:10)**
Also, my website is below.

**Gerry (00:46:12)**
Message me on there.

**Gerry (00:46:13)**
A p t at a p t doctor g is my username on Instagram.

**Gerry (00:46:18)**
Www.artofpt.com is my website.

**Gerry (00:46:22)**
Message me on there.

**Gerry (00:46:23)**
My newsletter is also oh, what else do I got?

**Gerry (00:46:27)**
Yeah.

**Gerry (00:46:27)**
If you wanna drop your training split below, we can kinda pick it apart, me and Rami, say how horrible it is.

**Ramy (00:46:33)**
That’s great.

**Ramy (00:46:33)**
I see.

**Gerry (00:46:33)**
We should post ours as the first comment, like, our training.

**Gerry (00:46:35)**
I see people can mess with it.

**Gerry (00:46:37)**
All the 200 people that watch us.

**Gerry (00:46:40)**
And, yeah, that’s all we got, guys.

**Gerry (00:46:42)**
We’ll catch you soon.

**Gerry (00:46:43)**
Catch you guys again soon.

**Gerry (00:46:44)**
Right?

**Gerry (00:46:45)**
Hopefully soon.

**Ramy (00:46:45)**
Absolutely, man.

**Gerry (00:46:46)**
We’ll do that again.

**Ramy (00:46:46)**
I’m always down.

**Ramy (00:46:47)**
And we’ll

**Gerry (00:46:47)**
see you guys next time.

**Gerry (00:46:49)**
Peace.

Welcome And Why This Show

SPEAKER_01
0:10

Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we're going to talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. I named this podcast in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia about two and a half years ago. So I wanted people to know you have a place to come where you don't feel so alone during such an overwhelming time in your life. So grab your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or if you're having a really bad day, a glass of wine and come join

Meet A Peer Grief Specialist

SPEAKER_01
0:32

us. So today I'm really excited about our guest. We actually, you're our first Patty on Patty's place. Patty Camo Simpsonson. Did I say it right?

unknown
0:44

I hope so.

SPEAKER_01
0:45

Simons Simpson. Simonson, sorry. Patty Camo Simonson. You are a peer grief specialist and a bereavement professional since 2007. And you're also the author of Healing, Working Through Grief One Plate at a Time, which I love before that. So welcome to Patty's Place. Thank you, Lisa. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me on. So tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you end up here being a grief specialist and everything?

SPEAKER_02
1:21

Well, um, I say I've lived like three lifetimes, which is I'm certainly old enough to live three lifetimes, I think, but but um certainly not by choice. Um some were and some weren't. Um I originally was a hairdresser for 20 years, uh, married to my my love of my life husband, and had to raise two wonderful sons. Um, and I I was hairdressing and then I was part-time hairdressing and working in our office because we had a heating company. Um and so I was doing both things. The latter one was not something I enjoyed doing too awfully much because it's being in an office and not being with people, beyond the phone, that kind of thing, book work, all of that, but I did it, you know, because

When Losses Stack Up Fast

SPEAKER_02
2:10

it was our family. And and uh, and then um in in my mid-40s, um David uh was diagnosed with uh colon rectal cancer. And that was a shock in itself. And um so uh he he was diagnosed at 48 and he passed away just a month after his 50th birthday.

SPEAKER_00
2:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_02
2:42

Um, but he he was an amazing person. Before the show started, you were telling me about your mom and how people gravitated to her. She was that kind of a person. He was too. He he just everybody just loved him. So the loss was we come from a small town, and um it, you know, and he has a he came from a not his initial family, but a lot of large family that extended. And um and and so everybody knew him, and also being in business, um, he just was uh an awesome, awesome person. So the loss um when he so I had just be not, let's see, um David passed the the July before um he passed, because he passed in April, the July before that, uh I had retired, officially retired from hairdressing because um I was busy in the office, but more than that, the year before David died, my mom passed away. Okay. And uh the year before she passed away, my sister's husband was killed in a tragic car accident. Oh wow, okay. So uh in those three years, it was we were enveloped in grief. Yeah. Um, and I actually I just did a Mother's Day blog, interestingly, um uh on on my blog and a video, um, because for a long, long, long time um I didn't feel as though I properly grieved for my mom because I was just so tied up with David's sickness. And um, although he made it very easy for everyone, he worked right up until almost the very end. So um, but anyway, um, so uh hospice he had uh for the last uh month, and uh it was wonderful. Um, and um they just truly were there for not only David, uh, but for my family, my two sons, who were 22

Hospice Care And Giving Back

SPEAKER_02
5:00

and three uh at the time. And uh so um they were wonderful. And I, in the back of my mind, soon after he passed, I knew that in some way I was going to give back to hospice. I'd hadn't any idea. I didn't obviously I didn't know what I was doing anyway for a long time afterwards. So um, but I just did have that in the back of my mind that somehow, I didn't know how, I would be uh involved with hospice. And um so after a couple of years, um, there was a little uh blurb in the paper about becoming a volunteer for hospice. Okay. I was very thick in in the business, having to carry on our heating business with my younger son and the people that work for us. It was I had no choice, that's what I had to do. And um that was that was challenging. Um, so but anyway, um about two years after he had passed, I um saw that ad in the paper and then um went for an interview and uh they were wonderful and and said that I was because you have to be ready. I mean and I and I had done my work. I am a a huge advocate for you gotta do your work while you're grieving, because if you don't, it just is gonna come back and bite you in somewhere where you do not want to get bitten.

SPEAKER_01
6:31

Yeah, you you really can't run away from it, even though you'd like to, you you can't.

SPEAKER_02
6:36

It definitely will walk, you've got to go through it. You can't go around it, you know. Right. And I had done my work, I had done support groups, uh, you know, I had done counseling, um, you know, all of that. And uh so they felt I was ready to volunteer and I could eke out a couple of hours a week uh to and I did patient care, where I would go to the person's home uh and stay with the patient uh and either read or just talk or or whatever I needed to do, but it gave the caregiver respite, which is huge. Yes, yes, it is. And uh so I did that. I was a volunteer in that capacity, and then many other capacities, because once they found out that you were the kind of person you were, I was, I couldn't, I mean, I just couldn't get enough. And and um, and I was fortunate because uh by three years after that, my my youngest son got married, and um, and so my daughter-in-law came into the office and it helped me to get those few hours. But eventually, so I volunteered for at least 10 years. Okay. And um, and then uh because I'd gotten to know so many people in the organization, um, and they got to know me, that I was approached uh by the bereavement director uh at that hospice, and she asked that she asked if I would be interested in becoming a bereavement assistant for her. It was a part-time job, which is all I could take. But I was excited. I couldn't, I thought, oh, this is awesome. Right, right. And it was, it was just so good. Um, it lent to kind of kind of capsulize it. It led to a full-time job.

SPEAKER_01
8:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_02
8:26

And which time my daughter-in-law took over the office. Uh, so that worked out perfectly. Uh, I um I was encouraged by all the young women that were, I was now in my, I was in my early 50s, you know, by by then. And and um of obviously the the social workers, the bereavement counselors, the chaplains, they were all you know, 30-ish, you know, like that. So I felt like Mother Superior, but but um they they they were wonderful. They they just you know took to me and I to them, and they encouraged me to go back to school. Okay. And I thought, oh no, no, I can't do that. Goes to show you you can do so many things that you never thought you ever, ever would do. That's true. Um, yeah, and uh so I went back to school and I received my theonatology certificate, um, which is the education of death and dying and that. Then I I took many courses in in regards to the skills that you need to have, because I felt like I my role had become a lot more in the organization, and I really I was the first person that people spoke to when they were calling for help.

SPEAKER_01
9:42

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02
9:43

Which was perfect.

SPEAKER_01
9:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_02
9:44

Because most of the time they were calling to find out should they join a support group, should they have seek you know, one-on-one counseling. And so I was that person, and I sort of I not square, I scheduled all the support groups and all of that. So I really uh got to talk to many, many, many people. Um, while I was in school, I I uh the we had to do for to get receive your certificate, what they call a scholarly plot project. Okay. And I decided, because what was coming through from the people that were attending support groups, after an eight-week support group, they would be saying the paperwork that I would be receiving, they'd be telling me, uh, it's not enough. What do I do now? Right. Where do I go now? You know? And um what I was learning in school while I was there uh was um how to be a peer and facilitate support groups to your peers. Okay. So I ended up uh talking it over with my I did the paper on that. I got a very good grade. Well, good. And uh and uh and then I talked to my boss about the possibility of of doing that, and she was for it.

Training Peer Support Group Leaders

SPEAKER_02
11:05

And so I developed the program. She said, let me see what it would look like. And um, so it's an eight-week training program to become a peer facilitator. And you know, like becoming a volunteer, you also had to be ready to do that, and um, you know, because you can't carry over, it's not about you, it's about who you're facilitating, you know. Right. And um, so anyway, um, that's how I became a peer facilitator. Uh I trained over 20 facilitators. Okay. And and that program was the first peer program on the North Shore um of the East Coast. Okay. Um, now it's very popular, very, very popular, but um then it was unheard of. And uh so it worked out really well. I'm very proud of that program, and it continues today. And um, yeah, so so that's how that came

Cooking As A Healing Practice

SPEAKER_02
12:04

about. Um the the cookbook piece of it. Um, and I I I always like to clarify, it is a cookbook, there there is no doubt, but um it's really about grief and healing. The cook, the uh, the it's about because of my lived experience, having lost my mom, having a year later losing the love of my life, um, having my brother-in-law uh pass and having to really be a caregiver for my sister. Um I I and then working at hospice for so many years and developing this program and everything, I had a background now where um, and I could, you know, uh teach what I've learned. So it's basically what it really is technically, they call it, the publishers call it a teaching memoir. Okay. Um, with recipes at the end. Okay. So because it's rest it's recipes for healing. Okay. Um working through grief one plate at a time. And the reason for that was basically because, as you probably might imagine, I love to cook and I always have loved to cook. And certainly it's all in the um the beginning of our married life, and then when he was sick and everything, I mean, obviously I was cooking like crazy. I was thinking I was gonna save him with my food, you know. But well, food is love, so it is, it is, it's a yes, it sure is, you know, and uh it's a way of showing love too. It is, you know, it definitely is, yeah. And uh so so um so I just have always loved to cook. Um, and I um when after David died, it was like, okay, no, I'm not interested right now, and um, I just didn't care about it. Um, and that's pretty normal. I really wasn't even eating all that well. That's also very normal. Uh, as long as you take in your fluids and eat a little bit, uh, you're okay because it's not gonna last. It shouldn't last, you know. And if it does last, that's when uh hopefully someone is looking out for you to to get you to the doctor or a therapy or something in order to get you through a tough moment, you know. Um but eventually, actually through the support group that I was going to actually uh started me in that uh situation whereby um I was in a support group. Now I was 46 years old. Um and the support group at that time they didn't have young widowed groups, okay, which of course they they do now. Yeah um and um that would have been where I would have gone had they had one, but it was just a loss of spouse partner. And I was in a group with women that were probably my age now, um, you know, all in their 70s and um, but the one true thing we had in common was that we all lost the love of our lives. The difference was uh that they had been married for over 50 years, most of them had uh grandchildren, but they also loved cooking. Okay, and so every week they would come in and talk about all the things they had cooked throughout the week. And I was loving that. I really found that really enjoyable to hear that, you know, and thought, okay, well, maybe it's time to start getting back into it. And um, so I did and everything. This book didn't come along until just a few years ago. Um, when three actually, I started it three years ago, um, because um I was encouraged by all those beautiful women that I still am in contact with, those young social workers who are now a bit older and everything, to say, you know what, you need to write this. And and maybe it should be you should write about recipes that meant something to you. And so for me, cooking was part, uh it was like a healing tool for me. Um, and you know, during my grief and and all to this day, if I'm having a bad day, um, one of the things I'll end up doing is cooking because it grounds me, it puts me in a sacred place. Um, I need to focus uh on something other than whatever my problem might be. And that's what I was doing when I was healing, while I was going through the process of healing, was I would go into my kitchen, which was my sacred spot, and all the things I couldn't control what was happening that when I was cooking while David was ill, I couldn't control anything that was going on at that time. And what you know, when you're caring for someone, you know that, you know, there's everything, but I I could control that one thing.

SPEAKER_01
17:20

Right. And um and I I had found um I find comfort in making the recipes that my mom used to make because I think of those memories, you know, because she taught me how to cook, how to bake. I used to joke with her and tell her that one of my favorite childhood memories was baking cookies at Christmas time with her. You know, so you do find that comfort, like you almost crave it because you you feel closer to them, or you think of those happy memories with it. I'm I'm getting goosebumps when you say that.

SPEAKER_02
17:50

Because that is absolutely positively true. It is. And when I just told you that I did on my um my my blog this uh past week, I did a Mother's Day uh blog and a video. And um my now the interesting thing is that my mom was not a good cook. Okay. By her own admission. I mean, I shouldn't say she wasn't a good cook, she cooked very well what she did cook. Okay, but she didn't enjoy it. She always said she'd rat much prefer read read a good book. And she was the first to admit it, you know. But the things that she did cook, she did very well. And one of her many, because coming from where I came from, the uh we it's uh seafood, and my dad clammed and my husband, David, he clammed. So we always had seafood of any kind. So seafood dishes she really excelled in, and one of them was New England Clamp Dowder. Okay, and um I make that a lot. I feel like she's with me right when I'm doing it. It gives me nothing but smiles and such a good comforting feeling. And um, food is comfort, and so you know, I I just feel like for me, cooking was a tool for me. Uh and um, you know, for some people it's uh uh dancing, you know. I mean, it there's so many things you can do to find comfort, you know, that whatever works for you, obviously, but for me it was cook cooking. And um, so that book was inspired by a lot of the young women that that I had worked with who said, you know, you should do it.

SPEAKER_01
19:39

And um it makes me think of a a lot of my favorite stories are that with my mom or of all are around the kitchen. Like she used to tell me, if you could read, you could read a recipe. If you could read a recipe, you could cook, she would say. But then as she, you know, as she got older, she'd be like, she'd look at a recipe, and if it was too long, she'd be like, I'm not making that. That's too long, too many ingredients, I'm not doing it. Or if it she had to roll out dough or things like that, she would wait and then she'd be like, You do it, and then we'll, you know, go to Yeah, and then she's like, Here's my rolling pin because I'm not using it

What To Say To Someone Grieving

SPEAKER_01
20:13

anymore. I was like, Okay, you know, um, one of the things I see on your profile, you say, please don't tell a grieving person that they're in a better place. What do you think a grieving person really needs to hear?

SPEAKER_02
20:30

Um, okay. Um, they don't need to hear that. I mean, we we we we ourselves, we kind of almost know that. And if you're a person of faith, you do know that. Right. Okay. But at that moment in time, it really is not the thing you should be saying. Um, what you could, you know, sometimes and I understand it because it our culture is uncomfortable with grief. Yes, and people don't know what to say. And their main goal is they do not want to upset you, they do not want to make you feel bad, they don't want to make you cry. I say to that, you're not gonna do any of those things because chances are they feel bad, they are upset, and they've been crying. So don't worry about that. Really don't. Sometimes if if uh simply saying I am so sorry, I can't imagine how you're feeling. And if you're a person who hasn't lost your mom, that's very easy to say because that person doesn't understand right how you're feeling. If you're a person who's not lost your husband, you can, you know, you that you if you've lost your husband, I mean, you that is a thing to say because you have lost your husband. Same with the mom. So saying I if you have not had experience a loss, just saying, I I am so sorry, I can't imagine. Imagine what you're going through. Also, if you if you, as the person who is sharing condolences, if you had a good memory of that person, share it. Yeah. Because that gives, I know it did to me. I mean, I uh for both my mom, my mom was very well loved, so wasn't David. Again, from being from a small town, you know, people know everyone. Um, people had stories that they wanted to share, and I wanted to hear that. That made me, it might have made me feel a little sad. Um, and it maybe brought tears to me, but that's okay because what it does is it lets me know that other people's people are feeling the loss too. I'm not the only one.

SPEAKER_01
22:51

Yeah, I find comfort in that. As a matter of fact, at my mom's service, my mom wanted people to tell whatever stories she said, you know, do, you know, do that. And um, my cousin's kids came up to me because they were close with my mom. You know, she had they were over at her house since they were babies, and they were like, Can we tell this story about Auntie Patty? And I go, You can tell whatever story you want. And they were like, This is one of our favorite stories. And it made everybody laugh because it was so like they just you know, they love that story about her. And I was like, And it did. You just found you found comfort in talking about them.

SPEAKER_02
23:27

You do, but people feel like they have to say something, and um and so that's one of those things that you know people say, you know. I I they also uh with me, with my experience when um uh David died, um, I had somebody in the at the at the wake say to me, uh, you're young, you'll meet someone again. Which I hear like, what? Yeah. If I wasn't a lady, I would I would have hacked them, I'm sure. But I I but but but of course I was not happy to hear something like that at the time. But I completely understand it. Was it the wrong, really wrong thing to say? Yeah, uh, definitely. But that person is a lovely, lovely person. They meant no harm at all. And most people don't mean harm when they're talking to you and trying to tell you how sorry they are. Um, but you know, sometimes they just say a little too much, which sometimes just saying I'm so sorry is enough. And and if it's appropriate, a nice hug. Mm-hmm. You know, I I missed hugs for a long time. Yeah. It's like, you know, I you do, you just miss that, you know.

SPEAKER_01
24:53

So well, I remember the night before my mom passed, a really good friend of mine called me, and I found great comfort in his words of just saying, There's nothing I can say to make you feel better, you know. Absolutely. And I was yeah, there are no words, but the fact that you said that to me gave me comfort.

SPEAKER_02
25:14

Yeah, no, I know it isn't that I mean it's amazing, truly, you know. But I mean, everybody is trying and and they are if if they're there, that means they had some good memories of your mom and they just wanted to show your support, their support for you, you know. I mean, so we have to sort of remember that. At the time it's kind of hard, but but um eventually you do understand why things are said. It's just that from my book, there's a lot of things that you can say and not say, you know. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01
25:46

Um, you know, yeah, because you're like, I I get that, but they're still not physically here, even though of course you or they say, Well, they're not suffering anymore. And you're like, Well, I know that. And I thought that I want them to suffer, but I wish they were here and they never had to suffer, you know.

SPEAKER_02
26:02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01
26:03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02
26:04

Exactly. You know, again, we just feel like we have to. I mean, I've learned so much, I'm sure you have too, you know. Um, but you do when you're walking in those shoes, you do learn so much. And you do there are there is an etiquette, believe it or not, you know, and um people again, because grief in our culture is not expressed the way it's not talked about the way it should be, really. Um people are uncomfortable, people are uncomfortable. Um, because and I think mainly because um your mortality just sort of jumps up in front of you, you know. It's like, well, if that happened to that person, gee, you know, I'm that person's age. Then maybe that'll happen to me, you know, or you know, my mom hasn't been well and Lisa's mom has just died. I wonder, you know, how soon will it be for my mom? Mortality comes. So it makes people think about that. And then it makes them even more uncomfortable when it should be a discussion out in the open. Really.

SPEAKER_01
27:16

Yeah, I think. It yeah, it really should be.

When Grief Feels Unbearable

SPEAKER_01
27:20

So what do you want someone who's maybe deep in grief right now to know more than anything else?

SPEAKER_02
27:27

Okay. Um, and that's a that's a really good question. Um first off, um and you know, if somebody said this to me early on, I maybe wouldn't have believed them. You know, I I would have hoped I would have accepted it, but and I'm sure I would have accepted it, but I probably wouldn't have believed them. I would tell someone this deep excruciating, gut-wrenching pain that you are in right now will not last. It won't. Um it can't. It it physically can't. Um because as you well know, I'm sure, if you you know what your body is doing or not doing when you are in that gut-wrenching horrific pain. Um, your body is like shutting down. You're just not taking care of yourself, you're not, you're just simply really into that pain. And it so your body really helps you along the way, even though you're not aware of it, it does help you. Your body can't stay in that pain. And hopefully, um, I always hope that people have a good support system. So the second thing I would say is that um the first that being that that gut wrenching pain won't last, it will soften. It does soften, it won't go away, it's not gonna go away. Um, but it it's it softens. And the the second thing I would say is really lean in to your support system if you have one. Um, and I hope that people do have one. That's my wish for everyone to really have a good, strong support system, and that includes getting um like therapy, like um bereavement counseling um from a bereavement counselor. Um, because your support system, as wonderful as it is, and you have to have it. You can't what people don't understand is or I think they realize they you can't grieve alone. It's impossible to grieve alone. And um so with your support system and then the with the help with a professional to who it has, your support system is generally your family members or a very good friend who are really invested in you, or your or your minister, or your priest, or your rabbi, any of those people, that you have a really good relationship. But eventually, as wonderful as that can be, um, and I I am hopeful that it is for most people, um, a bereavement professional is absolutely something that everybody should take advantage of. Because that person uh may or may not have experienced the loss of you, of what you've experienced, but they are skilled in grief and loss. And and they're also not attached, they have no history with you. So they're coming from a really good, solid place where they can just advise you and talk to you, sometimes talk you down off a cliff, you know, things like that, that maybe a close family member or friend or a priest or anyone like that can't get to you that way, you know. So I truly believe that um you you it's a wonderful thing to be able to reach out and get um bereavement care as well. Um, so those are the really the two things to tell to to say it's because it won't the the awful pain won't last. I mean, it'll last long enough. Right. Oh, for sure. Yeah, you know, for sure. I'm not saying it's gonna be over in a month. No, no, I don't mean that, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01
31:50

Um the intense pain doesn't last as long as you think it will. It the it's still there, the hurt, but the it that intensity isn't exactly yeah. And that I would always encourage people to, yeah, because sometimes your support system, like you were saying, they mean well, but sometimes it just isn't it's not exactly what you need, or I like you said, if you go like to a hospice or uh bereavement counselor, they're not attached, so they're able to give you tools to help you. That's right, you know, to build and help you do a little bit better or just help you get through things where sometimes when you're dealing with family and friends, sometimes you you feel obligated to do certain things and maybe you're just not ready to do it.

SPEAKER_02
32:37

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01
32:38

And exactly.

SPEAKER_02
32:39

And we don't often have the I guess the courage at that moment to say, no, I I can't. We I think we're ultimately caregivers ourselves, and I um that can be detrimental at a lot of times because it is important to make sure people do know your boundaries, you know. Um, and uh it is really important because um some people will take advantage of that. Also, I would say too, um, you know, I'm all for a great strong support system, but sometimes um that's good as long as they're not um giving you their opinions as to what you should and shouldn't do, kind of thing, which is a normal, natural thing to do if you are a close family member because you love that person. You love that person. Right. But that's that's why you need uh that's why to me it's very important to have a bereavement uh professional uh that you can you we tend not to tell our most sacred thoughts to those closest to that's very true because we don't want to upset them. We don't want to upset them, right? And um, but you can you can say whatever you want to a bereavement professional, and that person will just sit there and go, I understand completely. Maybe it should be handled this way. Why do you think this happened this way? Why are you feeling those feelings? That's what they are there for, you know, and uh so it's important, it's very, very important.

SPEAKER_01
34:33

Yeah, I yeah, I I told several of my friends who've had similar situations in that. I was like, I'm just telling you, it helps, you know. And I I always feel good when you know they have taken, you know, they've they've called and they've they've done it because they are getting the tools that they need because everybody's grief is different. You can't compare grief. And so yeah, when you're talking to a professional like that, they can help you that's right with that. Absolutely, yeah. It it just should be part of the process, part of the grieving process for people.

SPEAKER_02
35:07

It is, and it is a process, and it lasts a very long time. Um, it doesn't ever leave, um, you know, but again, it softens, and you know, we're meant to continue living because we're here. We're here, and that person that we lost wants that more than anything for us to continue living, to have joy, to have hope, to have happiness how in whatever form that may look. Um, the person you lost, I can guarantee you, uh, wants that more than anything. So we're we're that's really part of the grieving process is for us to continue. And while we're continuing, we're honoring their memory. You know, we're we're taking them with them. I always feel like uh I David has been with me. I mean, last month was 33 years that he's been gone. Oh wow, okay, yeah, and um some days, like it was just yesterday, yeah, and other days it's like wow, yeah, I've lived three lifetimes, you know, and wow, but he has been with me in everything. And I, you know, obviously this book is dedicated to him. And um and so yeah, I I I it's amazing, but it's always there, and I just take him with me on everything and then everything, everything that's happened to me, he's been carried along with me. It's his legacy too, you know. Um, and you and you want that to be, you want that to be um available to free future generations, you know, like the grandchildren, your your mom's grandchildren, I'm sure, have their own wonderful memories, you know.

SPEAKER_01
37:06

Um yeah, and I I feel like too for me anyway, like I said, I I find comfort when I'm talking about my mom. And then like I do always feel like she's she's with me, and then that's another way to keep her alive by talking about her. And you know, I always feel like she sends me signs or I like I know she's she's there.

SPEAKER_02
37:26

Absolutely, absolutely. And I will say one, I will add one other thing, which uh because this is also important to me too, um, is that um don't ever stop saying their name. And and and that's the other thing. People are afraid to say their name in front of you for fear that you're gonna be upset and cry and whatever. And and you know, in the beginning, yes, that may very well happen. That may very well happen, but don't stop saying that person's name and tell anybody around you that you feel that might be a little nervous about mentioning their name, not to be. Don't be. Yeah, they have a past.

SPEAKER_01
38:07

Yeah, I I say that to people all the time. I'm like, I find comfort in talking about my mom, you know, it makes me smile, makes me laugh, you know. Because then you think of other things uh for that. Um, and like I said, like you said, it it honors them and it continues, continues their legacy as well.

Where To Find The Book

SPEAKER_01
38:25

So, where can somebody buy your book? Healing, working through grief one plate at a time. It's recipes for healing.

SPEAKER_02
38:32

Recipes for healing, sorry. Yeah, that's okay. And and it doesn't mean that the about the recipes in the book, because I mean, we have recipes to to learn how we can heal. You know, there are recipes in the book as to how ways we can heal, things we can do. Um, you know, so um it my book can be bought on Amazon. Okay. Um uh it can be bought on Amazon, it can be bad bought at Barnes and Noble. Some of the Barnes and Noble stores has the book. Um I I don't know if I I doubt all of them do, but I there are some. But uh down here uh they have them and up north they have them because I've reached out to both areas, you know. So um so Barnes and Noble, Amazon, uh uh Balboa plus uh Balboa Press who published the book also can be bought on there. And but probably more importantly, um my website um at um pattycamo simonson.com. Um is I I do uh probably week uh blogs twice a month. Okay. And I just I just finished one today about all kinds of aspects of grief and grieving and and tips and ideas and thoughts like that. Um so um actually the one that I did that I just finished today is that grief changes, but it it doesn't end you. And it doesn't. Uh so that's what it is there too. And you can buy the book there on the website there, which actually will would take you right to Amazon, I believe, anyway. You know, so um so basically it's you know, but yeah, but it would be great. People could go to the website and find other articles that might be helpful.

SPEAKER_01
40:23

And we will put all of this on the website, your website as well as recipes for healing, working through grief one plate at a time, so people can purchase that at Amazon or on your website as well. So yeah, thank you so much for joining us today, Patty. This has been very, very interesting, very delightful so far.

SPEAKER_02
40:42

Thank you, Lisa.

SPEAKER_01
40:43

I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02
40:44

I'm I'm I'm grateful that you had me on and I appreciate it. Thank

Closing Thanks And Subscribe

SPEAKER_02
40:48

you.

SPEAKER_01
40:48

So I hope you've enjoyed another episode of Patty's Plays. So make sure you leave us a review or subscribe to our channel on YouTube. So I hope you enjoyed your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or for us that really bad day, a glass of wine, and join us for another edition of Patty's Place.

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01
0:10

Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we'll talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. I'm your host, Lisa. I named this podcast in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia about two and a half years ago. So grab your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or if you're having a really bad day, a glass of wine, and come join us today so you know you're not alone as we kind of navigate through all of these things. So today I'm very excited. Our guest is Sarah Turner. She is the founder and CEO of Sarah Thrive. It specializes in circadian biology, mitochondrial health, and photobiomodulation. Sarah explores the role of light in energy, sleep, and brain function. Welcome, Sarah.

SPEAKER_00
0:53

Thank you. Thank you. It's lovely to be here.

SPEAKER_01
0:55

Yes. So I'm really I'm very interested in this whole concept with light and that.

Light As A Missing Nutrient

SPEAKER_01
1:02

So what do you think that what are we fundamentally getting wrong about light and its role in human health today?

SPEAKER_00
1:14

Yes, I think that um light is very misunderstood and underestimated as a healthy technology. Um really, from an evolutionary point of view, we are creatures that have evolved with the sun. And because of that, our bodies are covered in light receivers, and light triggers all kinds of different um hormonal cascades, uh, all kinds of biological mechanisms are triggered by light. So the indoor lives that we're living now, and screens and cars, and indoor offices, windows, buildings, it's kind of depriving us of some of those wavelengths of light, specifically the wavelengths that we would usually see in the morning and the evening, which is the infrared light. Okay. So really, as a species now, we're very, very deficient in this light. And you can see it almost like um a vitamin deficiency. You know, if we if we're deficient in vitamin C, we start to get um sick, we start to get tired, and then eventually we have brain issues. It's the same with near-infrared light. It's it's almost a missing nutrient that we don't really know we're missing because we don't really see light that way.

SPEAKER_01
2:29

I I can understand that because I know for me on days that are cloudy and gray, I my whole emotional state is different than on a sunny day. Yeah. It's really true. So you said that the body runs on light, not just food. So what does that mean in practical terms?

SPEAKER_00
2:51

Um, in practical terms, it means that our mitochondria, which is where our body makes energy, are actually stimulated by light and we produce the energy in that way. But not only do we produce energy, we also have certain signaling molecules in our body that switch on different protocols, if you like. So, for example, healing is triggered by certain wavelengths of light. So we we really yeah, uh, it is very interesting. And things like we're gonna talk a bit about the brain, I think, because your uh podcast is all about um neurodegeneration and the brain. Uh, the brain is somewhere that's very sensitive to light, and we know that we can actually use light to have an effect on brain function, and that might be difficult for some people because we kind of think that it's dark in there, don't we? We think we have this like yeah, yeah, but actually, actually, the skull is quite transparent to this wavelength of light, it will pass right through.

SPEAKER_01
3:53

Oh, that's very interesting.

Circadian Disruption And Mood Effects

SPEAKER_01
3:55

So, so as you were saying about the screens and stuff and the like indoor lights, so that disrupts our circadian biology. So, what's like the what are the consequences of that?

SPEAKER_00
4:07

Yeah, so we're talking two things here. So, circadian biology is how your body knows daytime and nighttime, and we do that mainly through sensors in our eyes. We have very specific cells in our eyes that act almost like clocks. So it tells our body what time of day, and because the body wants to do things at different times of the day. Um, but actually, we also have light receivers over our whole body that aren't um looking at day and night cycles. So it's not the circadian rhythm that we're looking at. It's as I say, more things like healing mechanisms, energy production. You said yourself mood, you know, when it's sunny, your body is that's because our body creates chemicals that make us feel good when we're out in the sun, because our bodies want they want us to be out in the sun, you know. Our bodies are helping us to kind of get that healing uh wavelength from the sun by creating molecules almost like opiates, actually, that make us glad. That we feel so good when we're out in the sun or when we're off. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01
5:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00
5:13

So it's not idiot.

SPEAKER_01
5:15

Yeah, because there's the difference. Uh, you know, for me, winter is hard, you know, because with the snow and it's cold, and I always say like I can handle a cold, sunny day better than like a dark, snowy day uh for

What Parkinson’s Trials Revealed

SPEAKER_01
5:32

that. So you've worked on clinical trial trials and neurodegeneration. So, what did you see firsthand that changed how you think about brain health?

SPEAKER_00
5:43

Yeah, that's an excellent question. Because really, that was the turning point for me in my career. Because I spent the first part of my career as in pharmaceuticals looking at um device development, like how do we deliver drugs to people? And then um I moved to the States, I moved to California, I got involved in all this biohacking, which basically means kind of manipulating your environment to help your biology. And I got involved in a trial on Parkinson's disease where they were doing exactly as I've been saying, they were using this longer wavelength, this near infrared wavelength, and shining it on the head with people who had Parkinson's disease. And these were people that were fairly progressed in their illness. And I was very fortunate to be on that trial because I saw firsthand how people were beginning to have uh a change in their symptoms, a change in reaction times, a change in we did gate analysis, but probably more important, a change in the way they related to their partners and caregivers. So for me, that was um very, very interesting that something as simple as shining light with that with a helmet could have this effect and change really the quality of people's lives. So that was a turning point when I started doing it in all seriousness to develop these devices to enable people to have access to this technology.

SPEAKER_01
7:06

That is very fascinating. It really is. It really is uh with that. So is that why you think that people can feel exhausted despite that they might eat well and they exercise? Like, how does the mitochondria fit into all that?

SPEAKER_00
7:24

Yeah, for sure. I think that may be exactly what's happening because if you don't get any kind of natural light, especially at sunrise and sunset, you are missing something. Your body's missing that signal. And the mitochondria are where your body makes energy. So people may remember from school that they're the powerhouse of the cell, you know, that's what we call the mitochondria. But but they're responsible for making one molecule called ATP, which drives all processes in the body. So if you don't have enough of this molecule, you simply don't have enough energy to do things. So your body will adjust, you know, it will give you enough energy to do the bare minimum, but maybe not enough to kind of be enthusiastic, be motivated, you know, want to go to the gym, because your body will conserve the energy if you don't have enough. So I think that could exactly be what happens to people who, you know, they think they're being healthy by eating well and maybe going to bed early, maybe doing all the things. But if you don't have the right light, um, you know, you're really not getting that energy. So it is for some people a crucial missing piece of that health puzzle.

Red Light Devices And Use Cases

SPEAKER_01
8:37

So would you suggest, like, I know they have like sunlights or different kinds of lights? Are those helpful for people to have in their houses?

SPEAKER_00
8:45

Yeah, there's all kinds of ways you can deliver light. Okay. So the light that I've been talking about, like this red light, that's something that you can have specific red light therapy devices. So they normally have, they normally look red, but actually it's invisible to the human eye. So normally the devices have a red uh bulb or LED and a near infrared, which is invisible. If you want to have it for brain, though, you do need to put it actually on the head. Because although I said, you know, the skull is quite transparent, you still do need to have the light very, very close. So most devices that are targeting the brain, my device included, it goes flush against the head. So it's either a helmet or mine is like um a headband, uh, and that what that's what delivers the the light. Those other lights you can get, like the ones which are like bright white, like they're called SAD lamps. People may know that term, sad, seasonal effective disorder. They contain all different wavelengths. So them they're more for mood, whereas the red light ones, near infrared, are more for neurodegeneration, you know, if you really want to target that.

SPEAKER_01
9:55

And on your website, it's Sarah Thrive.com. So people can purchase the infrared, like like you said, and if you see on her on your website, it's the band. So that can help with many different things. I see on here, like you have a questionnaire like uh even with your gut or focusing or your nervous

Gut Brain Link And Inflammation

SPEAKER_01
10:18

system. So who would who would this be for this?

SPEAKER_00
10:22

Yeah, so when when I was on the study that I mentioned to you, um I noticed people with um some of these conditions also it normally starts in the gut. Okay. Most people have some kind of low-level gut issue. If you have a gut issue, it means you've got inflammation in your body. That then tends to lead to brain issues. So one of the things that I thought was missing from these devices is to have a simple panel that goes over your gut. I can show you actually, I've got one here. Okay. This one something very simple that can go over your gut. Okay. Then when you're doing the head one, which is this one, simply on your head, you kind of get an enhanced effect because you heal the gut, you reduce inflammation, and then you have a brain effect. But some people suffer more with their gut, some people suffer more with brain system uh symptoms. It just depends on where your own weak spots are. Because all of us kind of have weak links due to lifestyle or maybe genetics, or you know, maybe we've had injuries. So some people have gut issues that that affect them the most, some people have brain issues. They're very interconnected. But the questionnaire just helps people to identify do you want to focus on your gut issues or your brain issues? And uh really it can help anyone who wants to get a better brain. So wherever your brain is at, you can have a better, I mean, really, that's most people.

SPEAKER_01
11:49

Yeah, most people, yeah, yeah. They would like they because you you worry about um, you know, all the different the neurodegenerate diseases that happen with it. So as someone who does have gut issues, so so that would be helpful too, because it the gut really does there's that gut-brain uh connection that a lot of people don't realize how they're connected. It's almost like your gut is like your second brain, right?

SPEAKER_00
12:20

Yes, maybe even your first brain. You know, in the embryo develops, you know, your gut is develop your gut forms, and then you form the tube, and then your brain forms. Your gut contains a lot of neural tissue, brain tissue in your gut.

SPEAKER_01
12:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
12:35

Most of your neurotransmitters, like your how your brain can be, they're made in your gut. Oh so the gut is hugely important for brain function, and they're connected via something called the vagus nerve, which is this nerve that that connects the brain, actually, the heart and the gut. But it forms a communication between them. And it's very interesting that there are a lot more signals going from your gut to your brain than going the other way around. So your gut is kind of telling your brain uh, you know, what's going on, what the environment's like, you know, how the person is, do you have inflammation? You know, are metabolites leaking out into your blood? And then your brain also is sending a signal down about what's going on in your brain. But there is definitely this communication, and the more that you can look after your gut, heal your gut, the better um you're going to protect yourself from any kind of brain condition later on.

SPEAKER_01
13:32

That's very, very interesting. That is very interesting uh with that.

Photobiomodulation Explained Simply

SPEAKER_01
13:38

So I also have to ask you, what is photobiomodulation?

SPEAKER_00
13:44

I know it's such a mouthful word, isn't it? Yeah. I know it's silly. Photobiomodulation. Well, if we break it down, photo just means light. Okay. Uh, you know, photon. I think most people know photon, photo is light. Bio is just your biology, and then modulation. So basically, it just means to change your your biology with light. And the reason it's such a big word is because the technology has changed slightly. It used to be called laser therapy, and you know, much, much simpler. But now we've changed it to photobiomodulation because lasers and LEDs can both be used, so we want to have an umbrella term, and this is something that's kind of makes the sciencey people feel sciencey by using this long photobiomodulation, but it is just a fancy word for light therapy, really.

SPEAKER_01
14:35

Okay, so why is it gaining more attention in both the clinical and wellness settings?

SPEAKER_00
14:41

It's gaining more attention because it works. Okay, I think really the bottom line, it works and it's not toxic and it's not invasive, and it's easy, and you can do it at home. And so I think all of those things, plus for a lot of these conditions, we don't have a pharmaceutical intervention at the moment. We don't have a drug that's working, so we need to look for alternatives. So, research is starting to show that for a lot of these illnesses, light therapy can help. And I'm not saying it's a cure, and certainly the FDA don't say it's a cure, but it can it can help in conjunction with lifestyle changes. So I think it's getting a lot of attention. Also, sports people are using it. I think maybe you've probably seen the face masks for beauty, you know. People are yeah, people are starting to use those a lot because what happens when you shine light onto the onto skin, it forms collagen and um elastin, and those two uh proteins together can make the face, you know, they can help with wrinkles and crow's feet and kind of plump out the face. But actually, those are also very important proteins for the structure of the body, you know, they're also important for general wellness. So I think although that red light therapy is mainly popular in cosmetics and uh face masks, is also very, very good for health. So I think it's a good thing that people are kind of getting introduced to it because then people are very they feel very safe putting it on their face because they've already done it with a face mask.

SPEAKER_01
16:17

That is very

Dementia Support Via Light And Sleep

SPEAKER_01
16:18

interesting. So let's say if somebody with, say, dementia were to put on the the one on the brain, like how would that help them?

SPEAKER_00
16:28

So people who already have dementia, their mitochondria are struggling a bit because they um have some deterioration, probably have some inflammation. So what you're doing is you're giving your giving the brain, one, you're giving the brain energy, but also what happens when um the cell receives the light is the area around the blood vessels open. So you have more oxygenated blood going to the brain, you have more waste products going, more energy and more oxygen also mean you sleep better. You know, people with these conditions have trouble sleeping, and that has a knock-on effect because we need sleep. We need sleep to power our brains, and we also need sleep to flush our brains. There's lots that goes on during sleep. So people who are already having symptoms they may find that things like their memory improves or their mood improves, has a knock-on effect of one, their sleep improving, but two, just having more oxygen and energy in their brain.

SPEAKER_01
17:30

I didn't think about that. Yeah, the oxygen in the brain is that would be very helpful. Like um, at least help them a little bit, at least maybe have a few more moments of um lucid lucidity or just a few more good moments as opposed to bad moments, probably.

SPEAKER_00
17:46

Yeah, we're not making a claim that this is going to kind of have a radical health on some a radical change on somebody who is fairly long in their illness. Right. I've seen people that have been able to have um a different relationship, for example, with the people around them. You know, people have started to in in the trial that I saw, you know, maybe have an opinion about what they're doing, maybe able to put on their own clothes, you know, maybe be able to participate in a family of they wouldn't have before. They're the wonderful things that you kind of see in these trials and that are being reported to me. It's just about, yeah, having that little bit extra resilience, a little bit extra capacity, um, a little bit more improved sleep, a little bit more improved mood. So, yes, these are not huge changes, but to the individual, they can be very, very significant.

SPEAKER_01
18:44

Oh, definitely. It definitely. Those little things can be a big deal, even um, from the caregiver point of view. It can be, you know, help them along a little bit, just have a few more, like you said, better days, or they're able to pick out their own their own clothes today, they care today about that, or or you know, they they know who you are in that moment or or or that uh for it.

Sunrise Habits And Cutting Blue Light

SPEAKER_01
19:07

So if somebody wanted to just improve their energy and sleep starting today, what you think would be the simplest changes they could make with light?

SPEAKER_00
19:19

Well, the simplest thing that people can do, and it seems very simple, but it seems to be a big arse for people, is to go outside at sunrise. Oh that's when you get that is when you get the long wave light. And if you can go outside and stand bare feet on the ground, even better, because this combination of they call it grounding, it it it sounds kind of unscientific and woo-woo, but it's really not, you know, there is a lot of science. There is a I promise there's a lot of science behind it. You're actually, you know, putting your feet on the ground, you're actually um electrostatic charges dispersing, you actually pick electrons up from the ground, looking at sunrise, you're getting that signal as you spoke about circadian biology, but you're also getting those long-wave red lights. You know, you're getting near infrared. That's probably the best thing that people can do if they can somehow change their lives or working lives or family lives to at least see a few minutes of sunrise. Now, if that is difficult, you can use these red light technology devices because that will also get put back that sunlight that you're missing. So I always say to people, you don't need this expensive tech if you can just kind of get outside and do that. If you live in an apartment block, just open the window and stick your head out. You know, do whatever you need to do. Right. That light in the morning, don't look at your phone first. Because if you look at your phone and you look at blue light, that's it. Your body already thinks it's the middle of the day. You know, our bodies are very sensitive. Because blue light signals to us that it's the middle of the day. And what do we do in the middle of the day as mammals? We're kind of forage for food and we're very active. So if people look at their phones as soon as they wake up, you're telling your body it's the middle of the day, and you miss out on all of the healing part. And if you do it in the evening, you're telling your body it's the middle of the day, and then everybody wonders why they're they're kind of snacking and hungry. Because we obviously we don't forage anymore, but we can certainly go in the fridge and start to have a little rummage because that's that's what we're telling our bodies by looking at this blue light technology. We're telling our bodies it's time to eat, it's time to be active and doing things. So looking at technology at the wrong time of day can be very disruptive. I'm not saying to everyone get rid of their phones. I know that's what all I'm saying is before you look at technology, put your head out the window or stand on the ground or see the sun, and then in the evenings, try as much as possible a few hours before bed to phase out the tech, maybe have a red. Lamp on, maybe read instead, maybe listen to a book instead of looking at something on the phone. There's lots of ways we can kind of limit that technology. You can put a red filter on, maybe if you really, really see your phone. But there are ways that we can modulate our light environment to make it more healthy for us.

SPEAKER_01
22:20

And that probably is. Yeah. I I, you know, we don't think about it, but I I when I start to read about sleep and things like that, they all say that, you know, uh stop looking at your phones, your iPads, all of that a few hours before, so your body can kind of start to wind down with it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00
22:39

Yeah. So that you're not telling your body it's the middle of the day because your body responds, even though you're unaware of it, your body is getting ready to do things in the middle of the day. And then you people wonder that they can't sleep, but it's because your body's running a different thinking, well, why would I sleep? It's the middle of the day. You know, it's because that's what you've told your body by looking at the phone. That there are a lot of apps, and if people have got an iPhone, you can put a red night filter on. Oh, okay. You can put it, you can even go as far as to wear blue blocking glasses because it's the blue light you don't want to see. So you can wear glasses that block out blue light.

SPEAKER_01
23:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
23:18

As well. There are things you can do to mitigate, but I think if you asked me for the one thing, which was the original question, I would always say sunrise, is that if you can just see sunrise or at least see natural light before technology, already you're setting yourself up to have a better day.

SPEAKER_01
23:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00
23:37

From a biology.

SPEAKER_01
23:38

Well, yes, but that's important. So if somebody yes, if somebody was interested in getting the red light uh technology that you have, so they go to the website, what would they do?

SPEAKER_00
23:51

And if they're interested in purchasing everything's on there, they can purchase direct from the website. I ship to every single country uh worldwide. Um, and my team can answer questions and so can I. So it's Sarah Thrive, like you say, but it's C-E-R-A, like brain, like cerebral. Oh, okay. But my name's my name's Sarah. So I'm Sarah at Sarah Thrive. Um, or if people want to go to info at Sarah Thrive, we're always happy to answer any of these questions. And yeah, people can then um, if they want to get the device, they can get it straight from the website.

SPEAKER_01
24:28

Okay. Yeah, this has been very, very interesting as well. That so red light is good, blue light not so much.

SPEAKER_00
24:35

Blue light makes you think you're not at the wrong time. Yeah, it's okay in the middle of the day, we need blue light. Right.

SPEAKER_01
24:42

Uh well what does so blue light makes you think that you're during the day, uh like midday for it.

SPEAKER_00
24:49

So that would yeah, so blue light is great. It switches on our dopamine, it makes us want to do things, it makes us active. You know, it's it's good for your appetite. You know, blue light is a good, it's good at the right time, but you don't want to be kind of having a good appetite and be all active, you know, when you're just about to go to bed. So kind of do things at the right time. So yeah, blue light is is not something to be avoided, but just try not to do it at the kind of the extremes of the day.

SPEAKER_01
25:22

This is and that's a it's a hard one to do because people are so we're all myself included, we're all addicted to our phones, right? We see everybody. Yeah, you start, you get down that rabbit hole, you start watching these silly things, and next thing you know, an hour has passed.

SPEAKER_00
25:36

For sure. It's the it's the entire planet, I think. I don't think everybody's kind of watching cat videos, but we just kind of need to get some moderation and kind of just be just be aware of of how much you're using the phone, even simple things like if you can arrange your room so that your desk is next to the window, it's better, you know? And instead take a break and look out the window every now and then, you know, try to do things where as much as possible you're getting screen breaks, but you're also going outside. I I do a lot of business meetings, but I try and arrange them all in a group so I can walk. You know, I walk and do them. You know, there are little things that you can adjust your life so you're outside a little bit more. Just you know, I'm not talking about we can't go back to well, we could go back to caveman days, but that would take a bigger but we can make small modifications to our lifestyles that probably would have, you know, cumulatively it can have a very big effect later on in life. Because, you know, these things are just very, very small effects daily, but if you add it up, you know, potentially that can have a very big effect on how you progress through your life and your health.

Agency In Health And Closing Notes

SPEAKER_01
26:56

And you do you talk about agency and wellness and aging. So what so what does that look like?

SPEAKER_00
27:03

Yeah, so for me, agency is very important. What I mean by that is kind of having some kind of self-sovereignty. Because I think we we kind of defer to a doctor or we defer to an influencer, you know, we're kind of like very ready to kind of, oh well, my doctor's told me to take this tablet, or you know, this is the latest thing for doing that, instead of really understanding our own bodies and kind of trying these different things. You know, things like we talked about grounding, and I said, you know, it's a little bit woo-woo, this thing about standing. But actually, if you do it every day for like a month, you can tell for yourself if it's good for you or not. You know, I think agency is more about listening to your own body, doing your own research, you know, not just following the crowd. And something like light therapy, it helps you because one, you don't you maybe if you're taking a pharmaceutical or a drug, maybe you can kind of reduce that a little bit because this these technologies can help, but also it helps you have a bit more brain power, maybe a little bit more thinking space, so that you can make good choices for yourself. So, agency is is what I mean by that is how do you make good choices for yourself that are going to benefit you later on? And how do you do things that are for you specifically and not just generic advice or not something that an influencer or someone in a authority figure is telling you to do? Because I think we live in a world right now where it's very again, it's very, very difficult. We're bombarded, aren't we, with people, with information. We need to have discernment, and the only way to do that is to kind of trust ourselves. So we need to have a little bit more of our own self-sovereignty there in health.

SPEAKER_01
28:59

I would agree with that. Yeah, that you definitely have to kind of learn and listen to your body with that. And I I would agree that the light therapy helps a lot. Like I said, for me, I notice it quite often. Yeah. So for that, this has been very, very interesting. This whole conversation. Uh, I think there's a lot. I I believe in all of your research. I think there's a lot to it with for it. So it's Sarah Thrive with the C, C-E-R-A-Thrive.com. So people can check it out and hopefully see which red light therapy might help them, your gut and your brain together.

SPEAKER_00
29:40

Sure, like I say, and any questions, uh I love questions, so uh very happy to answer those. But yes, thank you for having me on. It is an interesting topic because I think it's something that people don't think about so much. You know, we think about exercise and food, we don't think so much about life.

SPEAKER_01
29:57

No, and we should because it's all it's all connected, it really is for it. And it is something so simple, like you said, just go out during sunrise. It's as simple as that so far. That's it for it. So well, thank you so much for joining us, and all of your information will be uh connected with ours so people can check it out for it. So hopefully you enjoyed your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or if you were having that really bad day, your glass of wine, and hopefully you will check all this out. And make sure you leave us a review, subscribe to our YouTube channel as well, and join us for another edition of Patty's Place.

Welcome And Meet Laura Sharp Waits

SPEAKER_00
0:06

Welcome to Patty's Place, a place where we'll talk about grief, dementia, and caregiving. I name this podcast in honor of my mom, Pat, who passed away from dementia about two and a half years ago. I'm your host, Lisa, and this is a place where we will know that you're not alone. So grab your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or if you're having a really bad day, your glass of wine. And let's get to talking

When You Wake Up Exhausted

SPEAKER_00
0:26

today. Today I'm very excited. My guest is Laura Sharp Waits, she's a licensed minister and the voice behind At the Counter with the Baking Pastor. She creates space for people to slow down, breathe, and reconnect with God in the middle of everyday life, especially in seasons that feel heavy, uncertain, or hard to name. Welcome, Laura. Welcome to Patty's Place.

SPEAKER_03
0:48

Thank you, Lisa, for having me.

SPEAKER_00
0:51

And you know, today it's kind of gloomy here in Joliet, like it's gonna rain again. So I could really uh I think it's a good day that we're talking about all of this because some days I do find it's kind of hard to find God. So how do you keep going when you wake up tired and just you just don't know where you're going? What do you do?

SPEAKER_03
1:13

I suggest that you kind of take an inventory of what all's going on in your brain. Sometimes your brain's so full because you've got so much going on. And if you stop and pause and are willing to journal, I know some people prefer to do it on their phones, but there's an act of the the coming from the brain down the arm to the pen to a journal where you can just kind of download all of your thoughts and it clears your head up, and then you can say, okay, what's going on? I'm grateful that I can get all that in my head. It's gloomy, but that means it may rain. So we can be grateful for that.

SPEAKER_00
1:52

So spending time on the little itty bitty moments, which is hard to do, especially when you're caregiving or you're going through grief or a lot of things are going on because you just you feel lost in all of the big things. So it's it's hard to find those grateful moments for those little things at times. So how how how does somebody try to stay connected with God when you when you just feel really distant and fragile?

SPEAKER_03
2:22

Most times when people tell me they feel distant from God, it usually means they took a couple sidesteps.

SPEAKER_00
2:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_03
2:29

They weren't willing to work with God, give God their all, give the situation fully to Him. Like they would leave it at the altar and halfway back down the aisle, they'd kind of reach back up and grab it, and they're like, Yeah, I'm not ready to let go of that yet. But you know, I call the power of she were arm, you're just reaching for it and you don't leave it. But if you are away from God, usually it's because you stepped away. And so I usually just suggest get back into your into your Bible, do your devotions. But most of all, he's there to be our best friend. He's there. We can talk to him all during the day, not just when we need something. So for me, I have time specially scheduled in the morning for coffee with God. My cat and I grab the devotionals and the Bible, and I try and juggle her and the Bible in the coffee cup, which get challenging sometimes. And then I talk to him all during the day. For instance, uh, before this podcast, Lord, be with us on this podcast. Allow what you want to be heard. I talk to him all during

Feeling Far From God Again

SPEAKER_03
3:30

the day. Um, I laugh at myself and I'm thinking, wow, Lord, you're gonna have a fun time with this today, aren't you?

SPEAKER_00
3:36

Yeah, someday, you know, sometimes that's uh that old saying, if you don't laugh, you're gonna cry, right? Yes. So what do you do in seasons where you know life just doesn't look the way you expected it to do?

SPEAKER_03
3:53

That can be almost any day and almost any time, right?

SPEAKER_00
3:57

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03
3:58

Uh it can be for a whole host of reasons, but I love to tell people to find your special group, your your prayer partners, the people you can go to, your your go-to community, that if you have a I have a group text set up with a few of my favorite special people. And if I'm on the struggle bus, I'll text them a message and say, pray for me, y'all. I need help. I don't know what's going on, but just pray. And knowing that people are out there, they're not judging, they're not saying, oh, here we go again, they're just gonna pray and lift up whatever if I share, if not, they know just to pray whatever's going on. But have those people you can go to uh if they're close. Mine aren't necessarily close to where I am, so I can text them. But if you're close and can go grab a cup of coffee and just sit and hang out, that would be awesome. But make sure you have your your group of folks, and if you are navigating caregiving or a health issue yourself, please get on the prayer list. Too many people tell me, oh, I don't want anybody to know. Well, people can't pray for you if they don't know. So please add yourself, have everybody you know add you to the prayer list. I I did that when I went through breast cancer. It was the first thing I said. Put me on your prayer list because this is gonna be a journey.

SPEAKER_00
5:17

Oh, definitely. I like your saying uh I'm on the struggle bus today. I like that saying because some days it does feel that way. You're just like, I don't know what to do with it. How do you how do you tell somebody how do they carry grief or loss without feeling so alone in it? Because you do, you feel alone.

SPEAKER_03
5:39

You you can feel alone. I I've experienced that and I've watched my clients walk with that as well uh as a pastoral counselor. And again, I think that's part of having that that go-to group where you can just take your baggage because grief is one of those things like a snowball coming down from the highest mountain, and it collects

Prayer Partners And Asking For Help

SPEAKER_03
6:00

everything along the way with the grief. There, if you're a caregiver, usually you start the grief process the moment they get that diagnosis, and then it goes through, and it picks up the guilt because I'm not being a good enough caregiver, or I'm neglecting my family and my other duties because this a person, so gr uh, guilt, shame, any emotion you want to throw in their anger, anger maybe a god, uh at themselves for not having other answers, the doctors, it just collects all of that. And it just feels sometimes like I think it's gonna just overwhelm you and just roll right over you and squish you. And then you still have to peel yourself up and attempt to move on. But if you've got folks in your corner that can help and be there just to support you and say, Hey, Lisa, I know you're struggling. Can I bring you a meal? Can can I can I stop and get your favorite coffee or tea? You know, it's just little things, it doesn't have to be anything major. It may even be, you know, can I come sit with your person for a few minutes while you just go take a break in another room?

SPEAKER_00
7:07

Yeah, sometimes it's true, those those little things that sometimes as caregivers you don't always want to ask for. And if somebody can volunteer and say, hey, I'm gonna go do this, that means the world, you know. For what do you say to somebody who's angry at God? Like if they're listening and they're like, I I'm just I don't want to talk about God, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_03
7:30

Please tell him you're angry at him. He already knows, but he wants to hear from you. It would be like, again, your best friend. If your best friend, you're mad at them, they want to know, and they want to know why. And they want you to pour out your heart to them, and God wants you to pour out your heart to him. He didn't plan the situation per se, he may have allowed it, but he he didn't purposely go out to hurt you or your person that that you may be caregiving for, and it's okay to be angry. I would I've been angry at him several times. I laid on the living room floor when uh my first husband passed away, and the next day the ants got in the the air conditioner and shorted it out. Oh, and the next day the well broke, and it was just like I laid on the floor in tears, and and I'm in Savannah at the time in the summer. Oh, it is not no, you needed air conditioning, needed air conditioning and and running water, yeah, and I laid on the floor and I said, Lord, I've heard people say that you only give us so much, but I know that verse is not in the Bible, but I don't know where that came from, but I know you're you're either testing me or the enemy's testing me, but it's because I'm I I think I'm pretty close to more than I can handle. And I just cried out my heart and said, Help, protect me, send me folks to help, whatever. And the next day the guy showed up to fix the well. And unfortunately he said, Ma'am, I'm sorry, it's gonna be two weeks. And again, the Lord's like, tell him what's going on. And so I said, Look, my husband died two days ago.

Grief Snowballs And Anger At God

SPEAKER_03
9:10

I don't have any air and I don't have any water. I've got a hose from my neighbor's house and a cord for a fan. And he said, Holy moly, give me a minute. And he went and called and called every place within a couple hour radius to find the parts, called in people and was able to get it fixed. Called his wife, she brought over a hot meal and just hugged me when she came to the door. And again, it when you're going through something, you don't necessarily want to ouch yourself and you know tell all your business. But it was one of those things it was like, okay, Lord, I'm I'm gonna trust you. You're telling me to tell, so I'm gonna tell. And that was a really challenging time because I was very angry with every weird little aspect of what was going on. But I was honest, I told him, and he brought some some answers and some some solutions to the situations I was dealing with. So please don't don't make that wall permanent between you and him. If things are rocky, please step back together, fix it, apologize, just like you would your best friend.

SPEAKER_00
10:15

Uh my grandma always used to say that God doesn't give me anything that I can't handle, you know, so therefore I can handle it. But I agree with you, like some days I'm like, okay, God, I've had enough. Why can't you give this to someone else right now? You know, or she always used to like to say, uh, what doesn't um what doesn't kill you make you stronger? And it's like, okay, enough. You know, I'm strong enough. I'm strong enough. Can you like you know, spread the wealth type of a thing? Because it does feel that way. And I I'm I I always joke that I in an emergency, I I'm fine. Like I handle the big stuff. I don't like collapse during that. But my TV breaks or something, and I like just start crying. Like it's the little things that that's where it's it's too much. And it does feel that way, doesn't it? Or like one happens and then another happens, and you just like, I can't take it anymore with it. Um so how do you begin to notice God's presence in the ordinary everyday moments? Because when you have all this going on, you you do get lost in those little moments.

SPEAKER_03
11:28

You will notice things like if you have a pet, they'll come over and nudge you and they'll just want to give you comfort. Maybe you'll find something you've been looking for for a while, uh, a butterfly land outside or a bird on the ledge. Maybe you're I live in the country, so if I'm walking to get my mail, I may see butterflies or birds or flowers or clouds. And I stop and just take a moment and say, Thank you, Lord. Thank you for bringing me outside to see the beautiful sunrise or sunset or all these pretty flowers, and just take a sec. Uh and I even go way back. So if I'm looking at we got rain the other day, a bunch of rain. We're kind of in a drought. I was like, thank you, Lord, for the rain for our crops, because the farmers need the rain. And thank you for the farmers who you've trained to do that. Thank you for the tractors and people who work on them. Thank you for people who created them. Thank you for truckers that hauled that food to our grocery stores. And just start spending time thanking him for all the things I do see. And it's amazing. It doesn't take much gratitude, but just a little sometimes is is enough to get that struggle bus in first gear.

SPEAKER_00
12:42

You know, they I I have read about that, and when I am able to do that, some days I'm better at than others, but I do notice that when you take those moments and a little thing, you know, like I saw a cute dog today, thank you for that, or that it does slowly you do change your, I don't want to say your attitude, but like the way you see things uh for it. But it can be hard at times when you feel like it it's that fine line of that kind of that victim mentality, and then you know, knowing you can get through it, because you do feel very um very overwhelmed on some days with it, or you just feel very alone and sad too, or angry. All or sometimes you feel it all within like five minutes of each other uh with it. So what does it really mean then to try to slow down when everybody and everything around you is just pushing for more? Like you can't, you feel like you're drowning. How do you how do you find that that slowness?

SPEAKER_03
13:41

Well, I try and remember number one, the culture kind of created that fast pace, right? Um, we've got uh TikTok, you know, 30 seconds, we've got most TV shows, they come on, they state the problem, they fix the problem, even with the commercials, it's over in 30 minutes. We can't wait two and a half minutes for microwave popcorn. How in the world can we, you know, where's our quick fix or our magic pill? And unfortunately, most of the situations we're dealing with didn't happen overnight, and they're not gonna be resolved overnight. So when you you step back and and just take a deep breath, you know, if the TV doesn't turn on, mine didn't turn on yesterday, and I thought, what the heck? Yeah, and uh it was unplugged. So I thought, okay, guess the cat was active. So take a step back,

Noticing God In Ordinary Moments

SPEAKER_03
14:30

take a breath. And I could have, you know, blown off the handle. Why is it not working? But I was like, okay, Lord, there's gotta be a reason. And I looked, and sure enough, it was unplugged. But just taking a chance and pausing to see what's going on around you, you know. Oftentimes other people have done things or said things or have triggered you, but if you can take a second and realize they're not maybe they're not necessarily talking to you, they may be in generalizing or talking about someone else. But when we're already so tight with all those emotions, it can feel like everything's about us. But take a deep breath and and think that through. Did they really were they really saying that to me? Were they really being mead? Is this situation, you know, is it gonna be solved quickly, or do I need to take a couple more breaths?

SPEAKER_00
15:19

Yeah, it it is hard to, you know, to do that when you're in the middle of all of it. But I I do sometimes find myself being like, okay, just breathe. Just take a second, just breathe, you know, it'll just to slow that down uh with it. What would you say? What do you do? Like when a lot of times I think you feel people feel like they're stuck between where they've been and then what's next, you know, either through caregiving or through grief, because you're like this is what your life has been. Well, well, now what? How do they how do they move through that?

SPEAKER_03
15:56

Well, first they need to recognize that the grief is not just death, grief is any change. So if they were caregiving for someone and they had a routine, if that routine stops because that individual passes, now they have the loss of the person plus the loss of their routine. And so, in if that person was a a breadwinner, then maybe loss of income. And so you've got other things going on. So acknowledge what's going on in your life, you know, if your routine changes. In most cases, it's it takes a bit of time to to regroup and figure out what you're gonna do, but you don't have to make decisions overnight, you can do it in little baby steps, and just recognize what what all you're dealing with at the time, because it you very rarely today in today's culture do you have just one loss going on. You usually have a several, and when you've got several, it can be compound or complex grief, and you just you need to to figure out where all the components are coming from so you can address them and then attempt to find a solution through there. But if you try bulldozing right through, you're gonna end up loading up that truck and having all that stuff with you.

SPEAKER_00
17:12

And I think a lot of people like to bulldoze through it because they don't wanna they don't wanna feel in those uncomfortable feelings because cause they're not pleasant to feel. But I have found that when I try to feel what I'm feeling in that moment, no matter what it is, it kind of helps later on, you know. You know, because I don't know, like bulldozing through it doesn't always really work.

SPEAKER_03
17:38

Well, the bulldozing tends to be like the the quick fix, right? I'm just gonna bulldoze right through it and I'm done. But God made us to be emotional, he gave us emotions and feelings, and we really do need to feel those. We need to acknowledge them, what we're feeling, how it, you know, the impact it's having on us. And is it something we need to continue to deal with? And just because your person's been gone, I somebody the other day's person had been gone for a year and they said, Well, I guess I'm supposed to be over it. And I said, You know, there is no timeline on grief. It it comes and goes. If you need to feel it for two, three, four years, it's okay. You know, just because the world has this idea that it's it's time does not mean that it's time for you. It should be individually figured out.

SPEAKER_00
18:23

That's very true. You know, yeah, everyone's like, oh, it's that first year, and then yeah, you think, okay, and it and it's not, you know, um it was my third Mother's Day without my mom, and it it was still hard, you know, because it's like even though she wasn't a big Mother's Day person, you know, um it still was hard because the world makes it all about that. So you you you feel it even more uh, you know, before that. Those different those different milestones and stuff, they never they never go away with it's how you're

Slowing Down In A Fast Culture

SPEAKER_00
19:00

feeling. How do you hold on to hope when nothing around you seems to be changing?

SPEAKER_03
19:08

No, that God's there and he's got a plan and I need to be open to it. Uh my year, my word for the year this year was open, and it was to be open to him, open to his plans, meaning if he says something, I don't go, uh yeah, right. But I'm like, I mean, I still say, really? You want me to do what? Okay, so I I don't hesitate as much, so I'm more open, but be open to what he's doing and where he's leading you. If that particular season has closed, then he may have other plans for you. And it may not be sitting on the sofa in a dark house by yourself. It may be getting out there and meeting other people who have have dealt with what you went through. I know when I went through cancer, I actually can now look back at it and say it was a blessing. I got to meet amazing people, I had so many people, especially in medical facilities, pray over me. And had I not had cancer, I would never have met some dear friends I have now. So even in the worst thing you could possibly go through, there's a glimmer of hope. If you know um Psalm 23, even though I walk through the valley of the shadow, well, if you're in a shadow, you can't have a shadow without light. So if there's light, there's God, and that's what I hold on to for hope.

SPEAKER_00
20:36

It is sometimes what do you say to somebody who's like, I I get that, I hear what you're saying, but I just I can't see the light right now. It just all seems so dark.

SPEAKER_03
20:48

Assume that the light is there, okay, and it will find you and find a a buddy. And and I say that because I hopefully people have a support system. I know that there are people who are not. And if you don't have a support system, please go to my website and send me a message so that I can pray for you and check on you. I don't want anybody to have to suffer and not have people. It's tough enough when you've got people, and when you don't have people, it's even harder. But you know, I would ask that person, what's going on that you don't have hope? What what are you what do you are you not seeing that's right in front of you? Because you're you're focused maybe on something else. Um sometimes other things get in the way of what we should be, you know. Did you you you have a good cup of coffee? There's hope that there's gonna be another cup of coffee tomorrow or two or three, depending on the struggle bus, right?

SPEAKER_00
21:44

Yeah, depending on the day, yeah.

SPEAKER_03
21:48

Exactly. So uh you you just have to have hope.

SPEAKER_00
21:52

And you mentioned your website, so let's talk about that a little bit. So um your website is um I have it written down. Bakingpastor.com, correct? Correct. So if people go to your website, what kinds of things will they see?

SPEAKER_03
22:08

They will see some recipes in our blog. They will see some uh on Sundays. I do soul care Sunday per uh their little post to kind of make you think. I have uh blogs up there. I have oh my gosh, oh, on the homepage is a special edition soul pause journal. And soul pauses are what I have in my book and in my published journal. And people started asking for samples. So when I came on to start guesting, I created it and it's a PDF and you can download it. It's right there on the front page.

SPEAKER_00
22:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_03
22:42

Um there's there's prayers in it for different seasons that you may be going through. And oftentimes people say, Well, I want to pray, but I don't know what to pray. So I gave sample prayers, sample scripture that you could go to and check out for maybe noticing or if you're different thoughts you may be feeling. So definitely go check that out and maybe stay and listen to my podcast.

SPEAKER_00
23:06

Well, of course. Of course, they should listen to your podcast as well. And it's the baking pastor, correct?

SPEAKER_03
23:13

The podcast is at the counter with the baking pastor. At the counter with the baking pastor.

SPEAKER_00
23:18

So where can they get purchase your books as well? At the counter is the name of the book, the soul pause, the soul pause journal, correct?

SPEAKER_03
23:26

That is one of them. And the original book was at the counter spiritual

Grief Is Change And Has No Timer

SPEAKER_03
23:30

recipes for faith and everyday life. Both of those are on Amazon and the links are on my website.

SPEAKER_00
23:35

Okay. Um, I see them right here. So, and then you also offer some other oh, I see you have different um guides if people want to do it as a group as well, too.

SPEAKER_03
23:47

I have several churches right now on the uh East Coast who are doing this as a small group or a Bible study for their Sunday school class. And what's cool about the main book, the At-the-counter book, is there's recipes in there. So as a pastor, sometimes I need to break because someone had a baby or had surgery. And so pot pies is one of my favorites. So I have the traditional from scratch and then I have the shortcut because sometimes you find out that they had surgery the day of or the day before, and you don't have time to do a full-blown bake. But yeah, there's cookies and soup and all kinds of comfort food. So what's been cool is the the groups on the East Coast are actually making some of the recipes to bring and share so that they feel like they're having community time together as they work through the the weekly devotions.

SPEAKER_00
24:36

Oh, that's nice. And you know what? There is something about having comfort food. I believe that you just feel uh I I know I pulled up my mom's uh, she had like a makeshift recipe book that she put together and stuff, and that for a while there I was like making all of her recipes that she would she used to make because it just made me feel better. And and she was the one that taught me how to cook and bake. So I was like, it I felt close to her, you know. There's something about it. You're like, you just need to feel that um and have the comfort food with that. Definitely, definitely. So um that's another way people can try to, if they check out your website in your book, they can maybe find a little hope or take those few pauses to be able to maybe feel a little bit more connected uh with that.

SPEAKER_03
25:24

Um, like an example of one. I I just opened the book. Um, one of them says, What blessings have you carried with you through a hard season? Or who might be need a quick word of blessing from you this week? Sometimes the blessing is not necessarily for you. It's maybe God puts somebody on your heart and you text them a message. And I've done that before and just said, I don't know why, but God had me message you. And then I get back, you know, like 20 emojis that are crying. I've been waiting for to see if he was hearing me. Thank you. And so you know you were a blessing to them, and that blesses you.

SPEAKER_00
26:00

That's true. Yeah, sometimes, or like sometimes I'll find like little memes or different pictures or different things, and I'll sign and I'll be like, I was just thinking about you. This reminded me of you. And then like you could tell that that person um that cheered him up. My one friend, uh, she lost her her mom and her sister, I think almost 10 years ago now. And her mom used to love love giraffes. And so she told me one time that uh it seemed like every time I sent her a picture of a giraffe, it seemed to be a time that she was having really missing

Hope When Everything Feels Dark

SPEAKER_00
26:30

her mom and thinking about her mom, and then the giraffe would pop up, you know, like and I didn't know that. I wasn't, I was just like, oh, this made me think of you. So, like, that's true. You never know when you send a little something that that helps a person through the day with that.

SPEAKER_03
26:45

A little bit of love, and and it could be a meme, it can be a funny joke, it can be anything. You know, I I love those crazy dad jokes that you're just like head smack, you know. Um, and I've got one friend who I can send them to, and and I get back, oh my goodness, every time, or or something equivalent. Right. It doesn't take much, right? If if you know, because we don't know that they're not looking for hope today. We don't know what other people's situations are fully. So share, share the love and the joy as you can.

SPEAKER_00
27:15

And sometimes some days it is hard, but it's nice when somebody thinks of you like that and they sign you something and and to be able to say, Wow, I needed that today. You know, or like sometimes people say that, you know, if you just smile or say good morning or hello, sometimes that's what that person needed for the day.

SPEAKER_03
27:33

But that they I think a lot of people need to be need to feel seen and heard. And oftentimes if they're going through something like grief or or some type of loss, they don't feel seen. They feel they're in the background and the loss ends up forefront. And so to to see them, to mention them, to talk to them, and then let them share for a minute allows them to be seen and heard and feel more human again.

SPEAKER_00
28:00

I would agree with that, uh, definitely. Because people always like, you know, if you need anything, tell me if you need something or call me if you need anything. And and as the person who's going through all that, you're thinking, I don't know, I'm lucky I know my name today, let alone what I need. But those times when somebody showed up with a meal or or just sent you something silly, it made you laugh, you know, like you really appreciated that, you know, because because you do feel helpless on the other side because you don't always know what to do for that person, you know.

SPEAKER_03
28:34

So as a rule, I don't typically send sympathy cards. I wait a week or so because everybody knows everybody in their whole family is all together until the day of.

SPEAKER_00
28:43

Right.

SPEAKER_03
28:43

But then after the funeral, you go back to your home and you're usually alone. Yes. Everybody else goes back to work or wherever they're currently living, and it becomes very, very lonely. So I wait about a week and then I send a card or I'll take over a meal or I'll invite them to come out. Let's let's go have coffee. I'll pick you up. And they're gonna say, Oh, I don't think I'm ready to go out yet. Okay, well, can I bring coffee to you? Oh, yeah, that sounds good. So I I like to be there to support them because I know they've got a journey ahead of them. They've got their family to the point of the service, and then after that is when it seems like everybody just oh, they're gone.

SPEAKER_00
29:25

That that that is true, that's really true. It's like that

Resources Recipes And Closing Reminders

SPEAKER_00
29:30

that's like when it really starts. I mean, because all that busy stuff is done uh in that distraction, and now you're like boom, okay, now what do I do? How do I do this? You know, and it is those little things.

SPEAKER_03
29:44

And we can only have so many casseroles given to us, right?

SPEAKER_00
29:47

Exactly, exactly. You can only eat so many, you know. So your freezer is full. Exactly. And sometimes you need that person to be like, Yeah, let's go out, let's go for coffee, or go for a drink, or let's just, you know, I'll come over, we'll watch something silly together, you know. Um sometimes those are what you need for it for that. Um so your website again is baking pastor. Bakingpast.com for that. And people can get your book at the counter on Amazon and at the counter the Saul Soul Pause journal as well on Amazon too for that. Um and they can also check out your podcast too. We'll make sure we put a link to this with ours as well.

SPEAKER_03
30:33

You can. The episodes come out every Wednesday morning, so there'll be a new one tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00
30:38

Okay, for that. Well, thank you so much for joining us on Patty's Place today.

SPEAKER_03
30:44

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00
30:46

So I hope everybody enjoyed our discussion and know that find those little things. God's always there. So I hope you enjoyed your cup of coffee, your cup of tea, or if that was a really bad day, your glass of wine, and know that you are not alone. Please leave us a review, follow us on, subscribe to us on YouTube, and hopefully you'll join us for another edition of Patty's Place.